NEX-5 review

[DarkPenguin]

Oh man...your post is loaded for a m4/3 weapons responses. Have you switch on your digital humbrella?
Best luck.

You might note that Aakay isn't wildly predicting things nor using any minor advantage as a reason to predict the imminent death of m43.

[fredjeang]

You might note that Aakay isn't wildly predicting things nor using any minor advantage as a reason to predict the imminent death of m43.

I put a note on one post somewhere in one of these Sony threads where I recognised I was wrong on that point and evaluated badly the competition
maturity.

Also, keep in mind that this industry is extremely unstable. My statement that m4/3 could disapear as a reference, was not something exotic at all. I just misinterpretated the date.

Things are changing very fast. Standards are moving, brands suddenly disappear in a question of years. Legendary brands like Minolta, Contax, Leaf suddenly disappear. Now movie standard have changed, Full frame under 3000euros are available, more and more MF users are going high-end CaNikon, Flash is disapearing for Html5, the new m4/3 panasonic video camera are going to challenge the combocams like the 5D2 who has just been released not so long time ago...
What's true today will not necessary be true tomorrow. And tomorrow in digiland is really tomorrow.

There is a clear tendency. Macro sensors and micro size and usability. In other words, more power in a smaller package. What I was predicted was not a sort of Nostradamus fantasy exercice but simply looking at this industry and how all the circus is working. I still beleive that more powrfull systems will emerge and compeat soon or later with this standard and will chalenge it more than seriously, at least for photographic stills.

Cheers.

[aaykay]

You might note that Aakay isn't wildly predicting things nor using any minor advantage as a reason to predict the imminent death of m43.

Wow, a fellow Minnesotan !      Even single one of the quotes above, from the named senior managers in Sony Imaging, are not predictions but ones that have actually taken place.

Bottomline, I believe the m43 cameras are doing what they did when it came to their dSLRs, which was deciding to go with a relatively small sensor.  That part of their business (the dSLR side) is on the verge of shuttering up, due to that initial choice.   I don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that given equal technology, a micro-4/3 sensor, being 60% smaller than a 1.5x APS-C sensor (let alone a Full-frame sensor), will always carry that disadvantage into any such comparison - when things like DR, high-ISO ability, DOF control etc are bought into the comparison.   Sony seemed to have demonstrated with these initial models that even the sensor size increase does not necessarily mean a large increase in the size of the body (or lenses), as people would have assumed during the dawn of the "micro" era when Panasonic introduced the GH1.

Micro-43 enjoyed a competition-free field to themselves for the past couple of years, but now the competition is starting to turn up the heat.  You don't need to feel defensive about your purchase - that is just the way the market would move from here on.  Sony is not in this game to play second fiddle to anyone and this is clearly a strategically important part of their Imaging game-plan.

[fredjeang]

Wow, a fellow Minnesotan !      Even single one of the quotes above, from the named senior managers in Sony Imaging, are not predictions but ones that have actually taken place.

Bottomline, I believe the m43 cameras are doing what they did when it came to their dSLRs, which was deciding to go with a relatively small sensor.  That part of their business (the dSLR side) is on the verge of shuttering up, due to that initial choice.   I don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that given equal technology, a micro-4/3 sensor, being 60% smaller than a 1.5x APS-C sensor (let alone a Full-frame sensor), will always carry that disadvantage into any such comparison - when things like DR, high-ISO ability, DOF control etc are bought into the comparison.   Sony seemed to have demonstrated with these initial models that even the sensor size increase does not necessarily mean a large increase in the size of the body (or lenses), as people would have assumed during the dawn of the "micro" era when Panasonic introduced the GH1.

Micro-43 enjoyed a competition-free field to themselves for the past couple of years, but now the competition is starting to turn up the heat.  You don't need to feel defensive about your purchase - that is just the way the market would move from here on.  Sony is not in this game to play second fiddle to anyone and this is clearly a strategically important part of their Imaging game-plan.

My thoughts, exactly.

[DarkPenguin]

Ok.

[Steve Weldon]

I've wanted a small pocket sized digital camera that produces DSLR like image quality for a long time and I've watched with interest as the m43 systems hit the market and I've used/tested most of them.   Frankly I didn't get that excited about the image quality from these but the concept and portability intrigued me.  I use large DSLR's when I work, but when traveling around the city (Bangkok) I wanted something light enough to carry in my knapsack so I really wouldn't notice it's weight or bulk.   In the past there's been a steady stream of point and shoots in my knapsack from the Fuji fd30/f31, Canon G9/11, Fuji f200exr, and the quest continued.  I'd use these cameras less and less for anything other than snaps with friends.  If I saw a scene, a break in weather, a prime photo-op.. it had to be really good to motivate me to take the time with one of these cameras and then suffer through the limited image quality.

This has changed with the NEX-5/18-55 kit.  I had one of the first 100 previewed here (weeks before it arrived in the states or EU) and while it's not perfect.. it does produce much better image quality than anything else in its class and on par with the average APC-S DSLR.. imo..

I remain a bit confused about some of the comments from the testers.. some things were just flat wrong and others exaggerated.  I can easily change my settings in Av or Tv or M modes with the turn or a dial or perhaps a push of the button and they are visible 100% of the time if you set the camera that way.  ISO settings remain a few button pushes away but I don't find this that big a deal for a serious capture, the rest of the time Auto ISO suffices for fun and snap purposes.

I find the 18-55 lens on par and in fact better than the average mid-range zoom for DSLR's but not as good as the top AFS or L zooms for my Nikon or Canon's.  It's silky smooth and feels very precision and you can't help but get super sharp results if you use it right.  I can post samples if anyone cares.

The LCD is beautiful.. but I think the numbers/text could be larger and easier to see.. this should be adjustable.

The articulating LCD and small size makes candid captures both fun and possible where viewfinder use would not.  I long for a EVF attachment for serious capture, but the more I use the articulating LCD the less the longing..

Software sucks.  I can't wait for LR3 or ACR to support the RAW.. it's a major PIA to use the included Sony software.. but this is an issue with any new camera.  If you get one of the first ones you end up waiting a small period until the software updates are released.

The movie mode for 'fun/personal' use is great.  I'm not and never will be a serious videographer and when I must do serious video I use my 5d2 for that.. but for personal use it's great.   The "sweep panorama" is also heaps of fun, and the images interesting.. but it does take some work to get really good image quality and you'd expect from how this mode is used.

I'd say.. if you're not already invested in the m43 genre.. and want a small portable camera with DSLR like image quality then the NEX-5 is worthy of serious consideration.. I personally find it a no-brainer.   Will a NEX-7 be better?  Without a doubt.. and so will the new Canon 1ds4 when it's released.. but until then my NEX-5 and 1ds2/5d2/1d4... they all take the same pictures with the same image quality they always have..

And maybe I shouldn't say this.. but I see the NEX-5 as "disposable" as I do my point and shoots.  I'll get my $700 worth of enjoyment out of it before I pass it on to a son or relative, or maybe I'll keep a lens for the model that replaces it.. dunno.. but I'm not going to fret over the relatively low cost of this particular camera for the utility and fun its providing.  I have a room full of old P&S's and DSLR's that bother me far more..

[tokengirl]

Any Sont Alpha user should get one of these along with the A-mount adapter - think of it as an ultra portable digital back that can serve as a backup to your dSLR.

I am waiting to see if the 16mm pancake is decent.  If it is, the effective 24mm focal length is perfect for me and would make a terrific little go-anywhere camera with very nice image quality.  Just set it at ISO 200 in aperture priority mode and I'm good to go all day.  But the price of that little pancake tells me it's probably not going to knock my socks off.  Time will tell.

That's all I really want - a very small camera with a (relatively) large sensor and a wide angle lens that is also small.  My only other choice it seems is the Sigma DP1X, with an effective 28mm focal length.  
Maybe I will get lucky and Leica will introduce the X2 with a wider lens than the X1?  (that would be most excellent!)

[barryfitzgerald]

There really isn't a lot of incentive for A mount users to consider NEX over any other offerings. Limited comparability with A mount lenses, you can't use your flash guns on it either that's the same situation as other brands/ Nothing here that screams "Alpha" at all. Sony didn't really try to pull A mount users in on this one.

Maybe they don't need them. I still think the optics on the NEX so far is a bit mediocre and not as good as expected. You've still got lenses that are simply far too big to make sense with a body of this style (go look at rangefinder lenses for starters) And frankly handling wise Sony have been left wanting for some time now. If they can hire some folks who understand how to make superb on body controls we might be in luck. As it is it's a B movie with C Listers, and serious users will have "seen enough" and hit the exit in the first 10 minutes ;-)

[Steve Weldon]

There really isn't a lot of incentive for A mount users to consider NEX over any other offerings. Limited comparability with A mount lenses, you can't use your flash guns on it either that's the same situation as other brands/ Nothing here that screams "Alpha" at all. Sony didn't really try to pull A mount users in on this one.

Maybe they don't need them. I still think the optics on the NEX so far is a bit mediocre and not as good as expected. You've still got lenses that are simply far too big to make sense with a body of this style (go look at rangefinder lenses for starters) And frankly handling wise Sony have been left wanting for some time now. If they can hire some folks who understand how to make superb on body controls we might be in luck. As it is it's a B movie with C Listers, and serious users will have "seen enough" and hit the exit in the first 10 minutes ;-)

Now that's just downright insulting.. ;o)

I can't wait for the 16mm to become available, but so far I have zero complaints from the 18-55 that LR3 and ACR profiles probably won't fix.. I really hope we see those updates soon.

I'd put the 18-55mm on my NEX-5 up against all but the very best AFS/L mid-range zooms.. I have no serious experience with the Leica type class so no comments here.

I was documenting a CPU cooler repair the other day.. one handed shooting while busy.. in no way thinking about photography past the occasional documentary shot.  Check out the fine print on the CPU.. RAW to Tiff (via Sony software) to jpeg vs. PS.. no sharpening or anything else added.. so dark.. but the sharpness is apparent.   And yes.. I know color, contrast, flare resistance, lack of CA, and other lens properties count too.. they seem at least on par with the sharpness imo..

[Khun_K]

I use GF-1 and just got a NEX5 with the 16mm.  Apart from its true performance, I might just want to add that the NEX is a product of market demand, studied by whoever.  LL is a forum heavily influenced by mindset of westerners, which is also a large market, but not the only major market.  A lot of Japanese consumer, and younger consumer, and female consumer, does like the statement of small and compact, and their daily life involve with all such kind of interface, all electronic and unlogical, but they are so used to.  The Sony NEX is not more complicate than many cellphones.  Its compact design also makes some mechanical design not possible, and electronic menu is cheaper on cost, so I assume part of NEX's agreessive price policy made possible with the less costly electroic user interface and control, I think it is more or less target to a market than most of its user use only so called "intellegent mode" and JPEG only.  Professional user demand a lot, very few camera ever satisfy them, but then, sometimes professional is professional because they can produce good images regardless the camera (or even cellphone camera), like or hate.  The NEX is a nice concept as MR put it, a concept biult on both still and motion pictures. plus it is rather inexpensive.

Regards, K

[aaykay]

As it is it's a B movie with C Listers, and serious users will have "seen enough" and hit the exit in the first 10 minutes ;-)

Maybe true, Barry.  But your A200 is not going to set the "A-listers" on fire either, right ?  

[BJL]

A lot of Japanese consumer, and younger consumer, and female consumer, does like the statement of small and compact, and their daily life involve with all such kind of interface, all electronic and unlogical, but they are so used to.

And the advertising I have seen for both Micro Four Thirds and NEX seems to heavily target those
"Japanese ... younger .... female ... consumers".
Which is what makes it amusing to read so many forum posts predicting that the next step to be models that address the tastes of
"Western ... older ... male ... very serious photographers"
or complaining that current models do not fit the needs of the latter demographic.

The same forum posters who _still_ expect that APS-C format DSLRs will be killed off by 35mm format DSLR's, I suppose.

[Steve Weldon]

I use GF-1 and just got a NEX5 with the 16mm.  Apart from its true performance, I might just want to add that the NEX is a product of market demand, studied by whoever.  LL is a forum heavily influenced by mindset of westerners, which is also a large market, but not the only major market.  A lot of Japanese consumer, and younger consumer, and female consumer, does like the statement of small and compact, and their daily life involve with all such kind of interface, all electronic and unlogical, but they are so used to.  The Sony NEX is not more complicate than many cellphones.  Its compact design also makes some mechanical design not possible, and electronic menu is cheaper on cost, so I assume part of NEX's agreessive price policy made possible with the less costly electroic user interface and control, I think it is more or less target to a market than most of its user use only so called "intellegent mode" and JPEG only.  Professional user demand a lot, very few camera ever satisfy them, but then, sometimes professional is professional because they can produce good images regardless the camera (or even cellphone camera), like or hate.  The NEX is a nice concept as MR put it, a concept biult on both still and motion pictures. plus it is rather inexpensive.

Regards, K

Well Khun K.. You may have hit the nail on the proverbial head so to speak.  I was one of the first 100 to receive their NEX-5 in Thailand and I'm loving it.. except the software.  The Sony software was written for those in search of low hanging fruit who don't really expect to find any.

After decades spent in Asia I do appreciate the the differences in interfaces.. so maybe that influence helps me enjoy the NEX-5.  I love my DSLR's (1 series Canon's) for real work, but for casual candids, shots while out with friends, and something to always carry while out the NEX-5 is working out well.. and the interface I'm finding makes more sense the more I use it.  I still wish for a way to make the text (aperture/ISO/shutter speed) on the LCD larger.. but over all it's a very easy camera to use and the articulating LCD makes candids possible in a society increasingly resistant to having their picture taken.  A few years ago it wasn't that way.. but it sure is now.  At least in greater Bangkok.  

I think the image quality suffers greatly because of the lack of software support in LR3 and ACR or C1pro..  I can't wait for the updates.  The 18-55mm OS lens is great.. feels precision like no other, and is easily the equal of all but the top 2-3 mid-range zooms out there.  I hope the 16mm is released soon.. and extra batteries.  I'll never understand the Thai marketing of bringing out the accessories MONTHS after the release of the camera.. especially when we know the real money to the retailers is in the accessories.  This thing eats batteries, mostly because you're so tempted to play with the different modes, movies, use the rear LCD more, etc.    Memory sticks suck (Thank's Sony), especially the slow 'free' one they gave us during the promotion.  I have a Sandisk Extreme 32g on the way.. Should be great for movies.

But lets not get into the phones please.  I picked up an HTC Desire the other day.. I suppose I'll be forced to read the book soon..

[barryfitzgerald]

Maybe true, Barry.  But your A200 is not going to set the "A-listers" on fire either, right ?  

I'm not in the habit of offloading gifts from people. As it happens at least you can get to the ISO setting quickly on that model..el cheapo or not.
So unless you want to start a debate about "yes it matters" again (groan) Maybe we'll stick to the points raised. You could mock my cheap equipment if you like, my non premium lenses or my lower end flashguns... but I'm a lot more interested in the results I get. BTW I mostly use my dated but still good Km5d.

[douglasf13]

There really isn't a lot of incentive for A mount users to consider NEX over any other offerings. Limited comparability with A mount lenses, you can't use your flash guns on it either that's the same situation as other brands/ Nothing here that screams "Alpha" at all. Sony didn't really try to pull A mount users in on this one.

  The Alpha to NEX adapter allows full aperture control, and that is a considerable advantage over any other system.  There is no other make that can change aperture on Alpha lenses when mounted via adapter.

[aaykay]

The Alpha to NEX adapter allows full aperture control, and that is a considerable advantage over any other system.  There is no other make that can change aperture on Alpha lenses when mounted via adapter.

True, this adapter allows full electronic communication between the A-mount lens and the E-mount camera, which is a big difference from other run-of-the-mill adapters.  I might bite the bullet shortly, just to see how the CZ16-35, 24-70, 70-300G etc performs with it.

[BJL]

True, this adapter allows full electronic communication between the A-mount lens and the E-mount camera, which is a big difference from other run-of-the-mill adapters.  I might bite the bullet shortly, just to see how the CZ16-35, 24-70, 70-300G etc performs with it.

Agreed; with both m4/3 and NEX, retaining lens-body communication for AF, aperture control and such is a significant advantage of using SLR lenses from the "big brother" SLR system. Unfortunately, AF only works for SLR lenses with built-in AF motors, and often not very well even then, with older 4/3 SLR lenses anyway. Let us see how well Sony does at supporting AF on NEX bodies with those newer Alpha mount lenses that have AF motors.

[douglasf13]

Agreed; with both m4/3 and NEX, retaining lens-body communication for AF, aperture control and such is a significant advantage of using SLR lenses from the "big brother" SLR system. Unfortunately, AF only works for SLR lenses with built-in AF motors, and often not very well even then, with older 4/3 SLR lenses anyway. Let us see how well Sony does at supporting AF on NEX bodies with those newer Alpha mount lenses that have AF motors.

  Yeah, honestly, I don't have any expectations for AF with Alpha lenses on NEX.  Even if Sony gets it to work, it'll still be kludgy, and I have a feeling people are expecting more out of this than they should be.

[barryfitzgerald]

Most A mount lenses are screw driven and not in lens motors so even if Sony got AF to work on the ones with AF motors in that leaves mostly the new SAM kit lenses or the el cheapo build 30mm and 50mm ones and a few high end lenses that nobody in their right mind would want to use on a NEX body (70-200mm f2.8, 70-300mm G etc etc)

That on it's own isn't a deal killer..yes it's correct the aperture control is mechanical via the body. But with no hot shoe you can't even use your flashguns with them either.

Back to the expecting too much part yes I expected something with great handling and design. Sony are clearly not the company to look at for these requirements. It's all dumbed down with Sony at the moment that on it's own is a huge turn off. Never mind smile detection or sweep panorama (nice as they are) why can't they work out how to set Auto ISO to the user's choice? Back to basics for Sony as they seem to miss the obvious stuff.

[aaykay]

That on it's own isn't a deal killer..yes it's correct the aperture control is mechanical via the body. But with no hot shoe you can't even use your flashguns with them either.

Well, the hotshoe simply won't fit in such a small narrow body, right ? And even if it fits, the entire body weighs less than 300gms and if someone were to mount the F58AM etc., it would snap right off.  But going by the fact that the newly announced NEX camcorder, does have an A-mount hotshoe and an EVF etc.,  the expected NEX7 will almost certainly have both of these.