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Author Topic: HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?  (Read 2510 times)

dandeliondigital

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« on: May 17, 2010, 09:48:38 pm »

Hi All,
I wanted to create a target in HP APS printing on a 36" wide roll of canvas, set to Both, and then use the capability of the software which allows you to reload the target and read it, but when I created the target and then cut it off the roll and tried to load it to read it, I was presented with a message on the printers display that the paper was too small!

Any pointers on a procedure that actually works. Anyone doing that process:

First Print a TC9,18 RGB Target with settings BOTH: "Cut to allow for remeasurement" & "Optimized for paper width"

Next try to read the target using the "I already printed a test chart" setting.

Thanks in advance, and so long for now, TOM
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Colorwave

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2010, 12:50:12 am »

Tom-
How big is the test chart?  Did you make sure that you trimmed it to include the text that is separate from the patches?  If you printed on a wider roll and have optimize for width selected, as mentioned, the chart will not be 11" high if you don't trim above the label that has the paper name on it.  It needs to be at least 11" high on the right side, where the paper sensor is.  IME:  if the profile is accepted and no error messages are generated, you shouldn't need to read the chart again and are better off just saving the results and loading the results if you feel the need to tweak the profile.  I have had a couple of experiences where the printer said that it was unable to finish the profile (usually from a random drop of ink on one of the patches).  Naturally, those were the times when I had not asked for it to save the chart to allow it to be reread, so I don't know if a second attempt would have made a difference.
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artobest

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 10:02:51 am »

I've never had a lot of luck getting the printer to read charts that were 'optimised for paper width'. I stick to the default layout, which almost always works.
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dandeliondigital

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2010, 11:14:16 pm »

Hi,
Sorry for the tardiness, but I've been quite distracted.

The chart is 36" wide and 11.5" high, but, oddly, this first printing didn't have any text printed on it. So I did try a second one, and there it was: the text you spoke of (which is the norm), and it's quite a ways away from the patches. So it looks like it will definitely end up being a bit bigger than the first one.

My reason for wanting to reload and read the target is that I want to make a profile of the chart after I varnish it for soft proofing. I used to do this with my old X-Rite Pulse, and Designjet 2500CP so that I could get a better control over the changes that the varnishing imparts, especially in the dark areas of the print.

This is the first time I'm trying to do this with the Z.

I need to varnish and then try reloading.

This may seem a bit obvious, but at what point does the HP APS ask for the print to be reloaded or do you just load it like a fresh sheet?

Thanks.

So long for now, TOM

Quote from: Colorwave
Tom-
How big is the test chart?  Did you make sure that you trimmed it to include the text that is separate from the patches?  If you printed on a wider roll and have optimize for width selected, as mentioned, the chart will not be 11" high if you don't trim above the label that has the paper name on it.  It needs to be at least 11" high on the right side, where the paper sensor is.  IME:  if the profile is accepted and no error messages are generated, you shouldn't need to read the chart again and are better off just saving the results and loading the results if you feel the need to tweak the profile.  I have had a couple of experiences where the printer said that it was unable to finish the profile (usually from a random drop of ink on one of the patches).  Naturally, those were the times when I had not asked for it to save the chart to allow it to be reread, so I don't know if a second attempt would have made a difference.
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Ernst Dinkla

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 09:43:17 am »

Quote from: dandeliondigital
This may seem a bit obvious, but at what point does the HP APS ask for the print to be reloaded or do you just load it like a fresh sheet?

Thanks.

So long for now, TOM

Right after you selected printer as the object to profile + the click for the next step.

There is some inconsistency in making a profile of a varnished sheet/canvas if the calibration doesn't allow similar varnish measurements. In a complicated way, using a paper sandwich to fool the printer I can do the last but it would be nice if there was a firmware upgrade to do it more easily.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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dandeliondigital

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 03:26:16 pm »

Hi Ernst,
I cannot understand “using a paper sandwich”. Could you please elaborate?

Thanks, and so long for now, TOM

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Right after you selected printer as the object to profile + the click for the next step.

There is some inconsistency in making a profile of a varnished sheet/canvas if the calibration doesn't allow similar varnish measurements. In a complicated way, using a paper sandwich to fool the printer I can do the last but it would be nice if there was a firmware upgrade to do it more easily.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Colorwave

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 03:54:14 pm »

I'm not sure what Ernst is speaking of with his paper sandwich either, but am intrigued as well.  My only suggestion is to avoid any mayonnaise on the sandwich, as I've found the printer fairly intolerant of it.

As for your question about how to load the target, it's been a while since I did it, but remember wondering the correct order, as well.  I loaded the profile print like it was normal blank media, then went to APS for the next steps.

I'm curious if this works out for you, so please post your take on using the coated profile when you are done.  Ernst brings up an interesting point about the calibration being different and not being coated, but it seems like that keeps the printer in line to print the canvas the same each time, and the profile should be able to factor in the coating as a separate adjustment if you build a profile with coated canvas.  I've heard others mention this approach for external profiling, but don't recall anybody mentioning this with HP and APS profiling.
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Ernst Dinkla

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 04:54:42 pm »

Quote from: dandeliondigital
Hi Ernst,
I cannot understand “using a paper sandwich”. Could you please elaborate?

Thanks, and so long for now, TOM

With a gloss or satin varnish the Dmax and gamut increases compared to the matte original. One could argue that a calibration of matt prints from time to time should keep the conditions equal to when the gloss-satin ICC profile was created based on the first matt calibration. I think however that deviations measured within a matt calibration print will be more pronounced in the gloss-satin varnished condition and the correction to get calibrated/linearised output will not be in line with what one would get with a gloss-satin calibration.

The trick I have used (just a few times) is to print a calibration target, break it off before the scan. Varnish the print. Tape a shorter piece of white paper on top. Start a new calibration with that combo, pull the top paper away when the target is drying and the scan will be done on the original but now varnished calibration sheet. The difficulty lies in enough bonding between the two sheets yet you have to pull it off in the short period of drying and there is little space to do it. The underlying paper should not get out of register. The shorter top paper should be free of the transport pinch rolls to have any chance to do it right. It is a hassle so I compromise as well now. I have no scientific evidence that it is the better method but in theory it should be better.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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dandeliondigital

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2010, 05:18:36 pm »

Hi Ernst & Ron H,
Ernst:Thanks for sharing this technique. It shows that creativity is something that is necessary at all times and in all processes.

This is truly in the spirit of the old wet darkroom experimentation, and it's something that I find fascinating.

Ron H:
ROFLOL:
I'm not sure what Ernst is speaking of with his paper sandwich either, but am intrigued as well. My only suggestion is to avoid any mayonnaise on the sandwich, as I've found the printer fairly intolerant of it.

Thanks, I needed that! You gotta admit that it's been an "interesting" three years of working with the Z. I love it no matter, and hope I can get a Z3300 in the distant future.

I am going away from this for a few days but as soon as I can get the canvas I ordered in and get back on the case, I will report what I have discovered.

So long for now, TOM

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
With a gloss or satin varnish the Dmax and gamut increases compared to the matte original. One could argue that a calibration of matt prints from time to time should keep the conditions equal to when the gloss-satin ICC profile was created based on the first matt calibration. I think however that deviations measured within a matt calibration print will be more pronounced in the gloss-satin varnished condition and the correction to get calibrated/linearised output will not be in line with what one would get with a gloss-satin calibration.

The trick I have used (just a few times) is to print a calibration target, break it off before the scan. Varnish the print. Tape a shorter piece of white paper on top. Start a new calibration with that combo, pull the top paper away when the target is drying and the scan will be done on the original but now varnished calibration sheet. The difficulty lies in enough bonding between the two sheets yet you have to pull it off in the short period of drying and there is little space to do it. The underlying paper should not get out of register. The shorter top paper should be free of the transport pinch rolls to have any chance to do it right. It is a hassle so I compromise as well now. I have no scientific evidence that it is the better method but in theory it should be better.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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neil snape

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 01:53:34 am »

Quote from: dandeliondigital
Hi,
Sorry for the tardiness, but I've been quite distracted.

The chart is 36" wide and 11.5" high, but, oddly, this first printing didn't have any text printed on it. So I did try a second one, and there it was: the text you spoke of (which is the norm), and it's quite a ways away from the patches. So it looks like it will definitely end up being a bit bigger than the first one.

My reason for wanting to reload and read the target is that I want to make a profile of the chart after I varnish it for soft proofing. I used to do this with my old X-Rite Pulse, and Designjet 2500CP so that I could get a better control over the changes that the varnishing imparts, especially in the dark areas of the print.

This is the first time I'm trying to do this with the Z.

I need to varnish and then try reloading.

This may seem a bit obvious, but at what point does the HP APS ask for the print to be reloaded or do you just load it like a fresh sheet?

Thanks.

So long for now, TOM


I too have had better luck with the default rather than the optimized for re-reading.

Not sure if it works well in that mode, for me no, and I don't even know exactly what the setting does which is supposed to provide an advantage
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dandeliondigital

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HP APS Remeasure Target Tricks?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 10:38:17 pm »

Hi all,
I've been back on the case trying to get the HP APS software along with my HP Z3100ps to read a previously printed target. No joy.

First I loaded the target sheet having set the correct paper appears and is calibated. Next I check the radio button saying that I a target to read, and select the target type in the pop up menu. Next it asked me to load the target (which is in the printer already), and after clicking Done, I receive an error, The printer has returned false measurement data and aborts the process. Or I received the error: The printer has aborted the current process. Please check if the test chart was inserted properly. Restart the process accordingly.

The leading edge of my printed target when it loads is about 1.5" shy of the blue alignment line on the printer. Is this correct? It doesn't really appear to be functioning correctly.

Any help would be appreciated. Any one actually get this to work?

Thanks in advance, and so long for now, TOM
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