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Author Topic: Real World, C-1 5.1.1 and Phocus 2.5  (Read 4736 times)

bcooter

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Real World, C-1 5.1.1 and Phocus 2.5
« on: May 17, 2010, 11:37:01 am »

Stable or not?

OK, I've run the gamut with 5.1.1.   I've had one semi error free day of shooting, with a few crashes, running a machbook pro 2.5 ghz, on osx 5.8 and a new unibody on the same os.

One day over 900 caputres some issues.

Next project, crashed, disconnected and finally a series of crashes that we just put the phas backs up and moved to the Canons with eos utility and bridge.

Last week had a simple in studio shoot.  Prior to shooting did the de install, reinstall, new firewire cords, etc. etc. and test shot 490 frames to one folder.  Moved the camera on tripod, off tripod, pulled the cord, let it reconnect, shot again and again, no issues.

Project starts, shoot 4 frames and boom, no connection to the software, then spotty off and on connection.

When it works, the previews are nice, the naming is goofy, the sorting seems awkward and most of all it seems to have a mind of it's own.  All of a sudden highlight warnings start showing up, then I turn them off, it runs fine but what turned them on in the first place?

Once again after the shoot, pulled out that older 24" I-mac again the one running Tiger or Kitty Kat, whatever the previous os system was called, turned on 3.7.8 and no problems, just ran and ran.  Same fire wire cords, same backs, same cameras, same batteries and no issues, no crashes, not problems.

MY QUESTION FOR PHASE

Is 5.1.1 stable for a p21+ back and a P30+ back.  I hear dealers on this site  say there is never an issue, then I have rental houses that only rent phase backs tell me 5.1.1. crashes all the time, two techs tells me he has 3 to 4 crashes a day.

Which one is it? stable or not?

SECOND QUESTION FOR HASSELBLAD

Is Phocus 2.5 stable and fast?   What computers and/or video cards must it have?  How about naming?   How about sorting, processing speed.

I know somewhere there is a list of minimum requirements, but in real world will Phocus 2.5 run quickly and stable on a powerbook, and I-mac or does it take a desktop?

Can you run approx. 30' of firewire cord, does it take a repeater, what is the real world use?

I'm loathe to change systems, because I love working with my contax's but I must have something stable.

That or it's back to the Canons in studio.

BC
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 12:52:41 pm »

My first question is how many of these items do you follow?

By all means you can use a longer cable, but if you do we strongly recommend you use a longer cable which we sell and test (a 33' FW400/400 cable) and you set the back to [Menu > Configuration > Battery].

I can only repeat here previous statements. Our personal hands on experience is that 5.1.1 is rock solid regarding phase tethering using our many digital backs and several computers (MacBookPro and Mac Pro). Even in heavy continuous shooting and even while pushing the system hard (e.g. processing, editing, and shooting fast at the same time). This experience is matched by the vast majority of our customers. Those customers who call me and are having problems have, nearly without exception found what was causing their problems and fixed them - 75% of these have simply been by doing a correct uninstall of the program and reinstalling.

I don't doubt that you are having problems; all I can do is relate our experience hands on and with our other customers.

Doug Peterson
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 12:58:22 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Project starts, shoot 4 frames and boom, no connection to the software, then spotty off and on connection.

I can't tell you exactly what was going on during your shoot but spotty connections are usually caused by
- Not running the back from the power of the back's battery (especially when using longer fw cables)
- Back's firmware being generationally out of sync with the software you're using (e.g. really new software with really old firmware or vice versa)
- Poor quality firewire (anything that we have not, as a dealer tested ourselves I consider suspect because retail price and quality do not always go hand in hand)
- Other firewire devices being plugged in

I've personally tested, teched, and shot many 30+ backs to many computers using C1 version 4/5 and the backs will connect quickly and utterly consistently.

Doug Peterson
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bcooter

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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 01:01:45 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
My first question is how many of these items do you follow?

By all means you can use a longer cable, but if you do we strongly recommend you use a longer cable which we sell and test (a 33' FW400/400 cable) and you set the back to [Menu > Configuration > Battery].


I appreciate your response, but yes, we set it to battery, followed all the instructions, etc. etc.  In fact have done it numerous times.  

We make sure all batteries are charged, in fact our mag liners have plugs and chargers and  are running for the day, so no battery goes down low before we change them out.

Before we shoot eveything is clean, all the contacts and polished, (not clean but polished).

I would swear it's a firewire issue if it didn't work on another computer with 3.7.8.  

As far as a 30' cable, we've worked with the standard phase cable, a gold firewire repeater that was dead solid for a long time though now it seems to make no difference.

Early on, when I bought my first p30 from CI, I bought your own brand of 30' cable, the grey one and it never worked.  Maybe for a few frames and this was back in the v3 days, We recently tired it again because it's like brand new, sealed in a baggie, but that grey cable doesn't work, it feels like it never fits securly in the back.  

This was before you came to work with CI in Miami, but then I was told by your atlanta office that cable works fine, though mine didn't so I just put it away.


BC
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gwhitf

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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2010, 01:11:57 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
As far as a 30' cable, we've worked with the standard phase cable, a gold firewire repeater that was dead solid for a long time though now it seems to make no difference.

We bought one of those 30' cords from Granite, I think, but the plastic end of the FW400 cable was too large to fit into the Phase back port. So I just took an Exacto and keep whittling on it until I got in there. It seemed kinda Fred Sanford, as I was cutting on it and trimming it down, but in the end, once it got cut down just enough, it felt even MORE secure than the standard cable, because the plastic housing of the cable was really wedged into the Phase back, offering even greater connection and fitting.

At least that's how I justified it.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 01:12:44 pm by gwhitf »
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 01:18:52 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
We make sure all batteries are charged, in fact our mag liners have plugs and chargers and  are running for the day, so no battery goes down low before we change them out.

For instance what is your digital back firmware version? Menu > Configuration > About

Doug Peterson
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bcooter

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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2010, 01:19:52 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
We bought one of those 30' cords from Granite, I think, but the plastic end of the FW400 cable was too large to fit into the Phase back port. So I just took an Exacto and keep whittling on it until I got in there. It seemed kinda Fred Sanford, as I was cutting on it and trimming it down, but in the end, once it got cut down just enough, it felt even MORE secure than the standard cable, because the plastic housing of the cable was really wedged into the Phase back, offering even greater connection and fitting.

At least that's how I justified it.


I did the same withthe granite cables, it worked on the p30, p30+, and always on v3.

My p21 was absolute bulletproof on v 3.78 to the point it almost seemed like you couldn't break it.

Now I am a little surprised that Doug has had great luck with version 4, because I've been told by more people than I can count that v4 was at best a work in progress and though I tried it, didn't like it and at the time kept on with 3.78, I've yet to meet anyone that thought v4 was there.

I had hoped v5 was better, maybe it is, but multiple machines, multiple backs, multiple cameras, multiple everything, the issues remain.

I'm going to give it one last try before I start looking at Hasselblads, or just keep on stable with the Canons.

BC
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bcooter

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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 01:25:56 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
For instance what is your digital back firmware version? Menu > Configuration > About

Once again thanks for the reply.

I'll check it when I get time later today.

But  . . .what firmware is it suppose to be?. . . and if I change the firmware does that make version 3 on my older computers a no go?

I hate the previews on V3, actually clients hate the previews because they look so brittle but at least it worked and I have to be honest, I've become spoiled shooting so much with the Canons.

People might think eos utility looks dumb, it isn't that full featured, but damn it's solid to the point clients routinely say that was solid, you just don't have those computer problems we see all the time.

Maybe it's firewire, maybe even running on the camera battery Apple has lowered the voltage so much that none of these firewire connections run stable.  Maybe there just isn't as much integration with Phase and Contax and V4/5.

I don't know, but I do know I just want it to work, or get gone.

BC
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 01:27:41 pm by bcooter »
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2010, 01:35:37 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
But  . . .what firmware is it suppose to be?. . . and if I change the firmware does that make version 3 on my older computers a no go?

FW3.2.6 or FW2.9.8 would both be fine with both version 3 and version 5; though if you're having problems and have FW2.9.8 we might test your patience just a bit to have you try 3.2.6 (since you've tried many other things). With this question I was mostly wanting to make sure you don't have some particularly old fimware version.

I'm happy to have this entire process documented openly here on the forum, but it's probably not the right place to have extended back and forth. So while I have nothing to hide here I think it best if we continued by email (doug@captureintegration.com) or by phone. If you have any issue with that I'm happy to continue here as well.

Doug Peterson
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 02:27:07 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Now I am a little surprised that Doug has had great luck with version 4, because I've been told by more people than I can count that v4 was at best a work in progress and though I tried it, didn't like it and at the time kept on with 3.78, I've yet to meet anyone that thought v4 was there.

My comment was specifically that the digital back connected and stayed connected consistently which is utterly true of every version of 4 and 5 I've used.

Of course having the back connect quickly and consistently is not the only thing that matters and indeed most early versions of C1 4 (e.g. 4.5) were slightly to very unstable and lacked many key version 3 features. Later versions (e.g. 4.7 and after) were much better in stability. Version 5 is pretty darn awesome.

I would argue that the last version of 4 (version 4.8.3) was "there" but now we're nitpicking given that 4.0.0, 4.0.1... were not.

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 02:27:29 pm by dougpetersonci »
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siba

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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 03:42:20 pm »

Hi bcooter, I've followed yours and James's posts for the last three years or so since I started using a P45 on my contax. I enjoy what you have to say, and I like James's photography - so, if you like, I'm a fan, not a detractor.

Something that always surprised me, however, were your constant problems with C1. And especially, you sticking to 3x, when the processing speed of 4x and 5x are so much faster.

I'm posting because of your concern over compatibility with combining a phase back, contax 645, and capture 1. Like I said, I use the P45, but I doubt the P45 would work and not the 21 or 30. I'd just like to say that I have never had any problems with stability. I had problems with C1 recognizing the P45 on vista, but in 2 years of shooting a couple of thousand frames a month tethered, I may have had just less than a handful of crashes. And they were at the beginning with early versions of C1 4x; the back used to disconnect until I bought a (non phase recommended and quite cheap) 15ft firewire cable that has a much better connector into the back than the phase one I had been using. The new one is a much tighter fit.

I use a PC. A dual core - nothing special - but, I do have it dedicated to shooting tethered, and connected by ethernet to the rest of my set up. There's only photoshop occassionally open in the background for quick retouching. It's on XP. When shooting tethered out of the studio I shoot into a vista running sony notebook. I've only really shot slowly into that so I can't say I've put it through the works, but I've shot all day into the notebook without turning the back off, five days consecutively, 400 or so shots a day, and only once did the notebook freeze. And I'm sure that was a notebook issue, and not capture one.

So, I hope that this post will at least give you some encouragement that contax together with phase one back shooting tethered can work.

I'm only your run of the mill photographer, mainly shooting products, and I don't do mad crazy shoots that you describe (amusingly , and articulately), but in my real world experience I plug my P45 with my contax 645, a couple of times a week, into my PC, and it always starts up, and gets recognized by capture one. I hear that friendly beep, which tells me that I'm ready to shoot. I don't have to worry about the battery. I use the 15ft, not 30ft, so that may make a difference. The fashion editors bring me the products one by one, for four to six hours, and every time I take a shot it takes a second and a half or so for the image to come up on the monitor. I occassionally shoot clothes on models, where they then cut the models head off. And that's going the same speed that you probably shoot. As soon as the lights are ready then I take the shot, and I've never had a problem there either.

I don't know what to tell you about where your problem may be. I always create a new session. I only shoot RAW S not L. I use the grip with AA batteries as opposed to the lithium (not that I imagine that could make a difference). I use PC and not mac. I shoot and process during the shoot, in between products, or inbetween clothes changes. I have a folder on my hard disk dedicated to my session folders.

Anyway, I hope you win this feud with the capture one software, because it always seems a shame to hear you say how you're spending hours processing RAW files late into the night. I used to have to do that when shooting onto a card and using 3x where the processing time was almost 2 mins a shot. I used to hate that. And it was the main reason I switched to 4x. I disliked 4x for ages but learnt to use it because of ther processing speeds. There was no way I was going to be spending 3 times as long processing RAW files. C1 5x is now much more powerful than 3x ever was, and it takes 20 seconds to process a file, which I can easily do myself during the shoot. I shoot the last product, and by the time the fashion girls pack up the steamer and put everything away, I have the jpegs burnt onto a CD/DVD, and I don't have to think about the shoot again, until the magazine comes out and I count the pages to invoice. That's how things should work, and it does thanks to C1. I happen to use the contax and P45, but I recently tried the canon 5dii tethered to C1, and that seemed to work just as well.

Cheers for the timebeing, and best of luck

Stefan
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ericstaud

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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 05:05:08 pm »

Why OSX 10.5.8 bcooter?

Do you really have that installed on a new unibody?  It appears so from the first sentence.  I wouldn't be surprised is C1 Pro was more stable on Snow Leopard at this point (but I'd trust whatever Doug says in that regard).

I feel C1 5.1.1 has been very stable under the latest releases of OSX 10.6.x on my two computers, starting to fell like the 3.7.x days again (but with much better previews).
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bcooter

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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2010, 06:23:22 pm »

Quote from: ericstaud
Why OSX 10.5.8 bcooter?

Do you really have that installed on a new unibody?  It appears so from the first sentence.  I wouldn't be surprised is C1 Pro was more stable on Snow Leopard at this point (but I'd trust whatever Doug says in that regard).

I feel C1 5.1.1 has been very stable under the latest releases of OSX 10.6.x on my two computers, starting to fell like the 3.7.x days again (but with much better previews).


Eric, Siba, Doug,

I appreciate everyone's help.

Why 10.58 because when I bought a unibody I was mostly shooting the Canons and I wasn't sure if eos utility would work with snow leopard and you know the deal, in the middle of projects, didn't want to take a chance.

I have this feeling that something is not installed right.

I probably need a complete clean install and though I've spoken to Doug who has been very helpful, I'm going to start clean, clean, and go from there, because since all cameras, backs, cords work on 3.78 and it's just the laptops with the v5 issues, maybe something old is in the way.

I'm in the middle of a lot of post production, once I'm clear I will do a clean install and then talk to doug if there are more issues.

I do like the previews, the rendering speed of v5, it's the fastest rendering I've seen and has great color, especially for the Canons, so I don't think it's junk, I just know I have this weird problem I can't pin down which worries me.

Once again, thank all of you very much.

BC

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fredjeang

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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 01:47:51 pm »

Quote from: siba
...but, I do have it dedicated to shooting tethered, and connected by ethernet to the rest of my set up...
Stefan
That is exactly my idea. I've been trying to implement it but I face some problems (with the ethernet).

As I'm tech useless (but not tech allergic), I'm not surprise if I do something wrong somewhere.

For a good tech it should be ok.

The idea to separate the tethered task to the heavier stuff in 2 units really is attractive to me.
I think that would solve the crash issues.

Also, that would be good if we could generate jpegs automatically (to a preset size), sent into a server with html so the client has in real time a
web preview, it would work on mobile phones, Ipads etc...
All in closed circuit.

Anyway, all that is not working as I'd like I have to say but I'm keeping this setting warm.

I'm sure that a good programmer could do miracles in that kind of configuration, without reinventing the wheel.

Any ideas-infos welcome.

Cheers.

PS: About C1, Doug has been really helpfull, it is true that removing old versions and installing the 5 has an effect. I had a problem that shows up one day (not the dng), C1 would not recognise the folders. I got rid of the old versions, reinstalled the C1 and now it is rock solid. Not 1 single problem since then. I read the Doug's informations about C1 maintenance, good infos in it.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 02:44:10 pm by fredjeang »
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 06:02:49 pm »


SECOND QUESTION FOR HASSELBLAD

Is Phocus 2.5 stable and fast?   What computers and/or video cards must it have?  How about naming?   How about sorting, processing speed.

I know somewhere there is a list of minimum requirements, but in real world will Phocus 2.5 run quickly and stable on a powerbook, and I-mac or does it take a desktop?

Can you run approx. 30' of firewire cord, does it take a repeater, what is the real world use?

I'm loathe to change systems, because I love working with my contax's but I must have something stable.

That or it's back to the Canons in studio.

BC
[/quote]

Hi James,

Sorry for the delay in replying, on the road in Asia at the moment.

I am about to hop on a plane, so ill make a proper response in 24 hrs time!

As a quickie - we had an event last night in Singapore, three capture stations running including a MBP (older model), newer Mac Pro with dual display and one other MBP.  We had 150 people in attendance and Phocus ran all night without hitch.  It is the sort of place where something could go wrong it would.  One station was tethered fashion shoot, the other product so two different kind of scenarios.

Spec wise - Intel, Snow Leopard (For Core Image reasons), Decent graphics card, ie current or last generation for best support.

Naming - you specify your own naming convention or use one of the pre defined presets.

Sorting - Name / Date or custom.  Fast image rating as well.  

Processing speed - wholly dependant on RAM and processor.  Latest machine - 10 - 15s.

30' would require a repeater for sure.  15' probably not.  I don't recommend Geffen repeaters, Granite digital work very well.

More later!

D
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 06:05:43 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Also, that would be good if we could generate jpegs automatically (to a preset size), sent into a server with html so the client has in real time a
web preview, it would work on mobile phones, Ipads etc...
All in closed circuit.

In Phocus set 'Export New Captures Automatically' to on, and fast JPEG previews can be saved as you shoot to a location of your choice.  These JPEGs are produced automatically as part of the capture so it is no extra load on the system.

Over a network, to an iPad / iPhone, FTP, iDisk, Dropbox.

Tried them all with good success.

If you have a webserver in your studio (or use Air sharing on the iPad / iPhone) then multiple people can see the shoot in progress.


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fredjeang

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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2010, 03:15:41 am »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
In Phocus set 'Export New Captures Automatically' to on, and fast JPEG previews can be saved as you shoot to a location of your choice.  These JPEGs are produced automatically as part of the capture so it is no extra load on the system.

Over a network, to an iPad / iPhone, FTP, iDisk, Dropbox.

Tried them all with good success.

If you have a webserver in your studio (or use Air sharing on the iPad / iPhone) then multiple people can see the shoot in progress.

Thanks David.

In outside-the-studio configuration would that work on any server? For example, I can install and run a server on any computer. In the one I'm typing now, I have installed an AppServ run in "localhost". (or also the Xampp is the same).

That is something I have not being able to acheive so far (in a localhost configuration) but I don't see any reasons why it should not work. I'm doing basically something wrong somewhere and as I hate messing arrownd with these things, I gave up for the moment.

The Focus jpegs preview is a great feature.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 08:59:40 pm by fredjeang »
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