Color Management and the NEC PA241W

[pixtweak]

I am trying to decide which option to choose regarding the best overall solution regarding matching the monitor to print. The monitor I am leaning towards at this point is the NEC PA241W. The Spectra View II package is the ideal solution for calibrating this monitor. However, Spectra View II all by itself is an incomplete color management solution. Equally important are accurate print profiles. So I am wondering if I would be better off getting X-Rite's Color Munki Photo and have a complete end to end solution. It seems to me, as much as I would love to have the best possible monitor calibration capabilities that Spectra View II will offer, going with Color Munki Photo could get me a closer match, between monitor and print.

I would welcome your thoughts on this regarding what  differences are likely to be observed from the monitor profiles of these two options.

My primary system and software are OS X 10.6.3 and CS3/CS5.

[shewhorn]

I am trying to decide which option to choose regarding the best overall solution regarding matching the monitor to print. The monitor I am leaning towards at this point is the NEC PA241W. The Spectra View II package is the ideal solution for calibrating this monitor. However, Spectra View II all by itself is an incomplete color management solution. Equally important are accurate print profiles. So I am wondering if I would be better off getting X-Rite's Color Munki Photo and have a complete end to end solution. It seems to me, as much as I would love to have the best possible monitor calibration capabilities that Spectra View II will offer, going with Color Munki Photo could get me a closer match, between monitor and print.

My primary system and software are OS X 10.6.3 and CS3/CS5.

I have a 2690 Spectraview package. It's quite decent. As for the ColorMunki, unless you have multiple printers and use LOTS of different papers or unless you're printing on rather obscure media I would not recommend getting into doing your own print calibration purely from a cost perspective (even though the ColorMunki is not that much). Booksmart Studios has a library of ICC profiles for many different paper/printer combos and I have to say at $4 bucks a pop they're quite good (superior to 3rd party manufacturer's profiles in my experience).

I would welcome your thoughts on this regarding what  differences are likely to be observed from the monitor profiles of these two options.

The shadows might be worse with the ColorMunki but I'm not positive. Spectrophotometers are traditionally not quite as good with emissive sources as colorimeters, instruments like the Munki are really intended for measuring reflective sources. I would perhaps expect the color temperature it reports to be a little more consistent as the tolerance from instrument to instrument is often sloppy with colorimeters. Seeing as I haven't played with the ColorMunki though I wouldn't take my word for it. Perhaps someone who's played with it and Spectraview can comment. I do have an i1 Pro and I can say that it has no advantage over the Eye One Display 2 that came in the Spectraview kit (in terms of the profiles it generates).

So... if you have one printer and only use a few papers... Get the PA241W with the Spectraview kit and then check out http://www.booksmartstudio.com and buy a few profiles from them. I think you'll be pleased. If not, you won't be out a whole lot of money as the profiles are so cheap and you can still get the ColorMunki.

Cheers, Joe

[Alan Goldhammer]

It seems to me, as much as I would love to have the best possible monitor calibration capabilities that Spectra View II will offer, going with Color Munki Photo could get me a closer match, between monitor and print.

I would welcome your thoughts on this regarding what  differences are likely to be observed from the monitor profiles of these two options.

My primary system and software are OS X 10.6.3 and CS3/CS5.

You can use ColorMunki with Spectra View and get the best of both worlds.  The software is available separately from the X-Rite puck that can only be used ofr monitor calibration.  ColorMunki builds quite good paper profiles if you are interested in going that route.

Alan

[digitaldog]

You can use ColorMunki with Spectra View and get the best of both worlds.  The software is available separately from the X-Rite puck that can only be used ofr monitor calibration.  ColorMunki builds quite good paper profiles if you are interested in going that route.

Agreed. There are some advantages to using a colorimeter for the display (its a bit better at measuring dark areas) but the Munki will do a fine job and makes quite excellent paper profiles. In fact, last week I was teaching a class at the Vancouver Photo Workshops and the guy who runs the place was making profiles with the Munki and comparing them to the one I build our first day using an EyeOne Pro, 1728 patches and ProfileMaker Pro. We preferred the Munki profile, especially after a single iteration of grays (Marc there prints a lot of B&W outside the Epson Advanced B&W driver settings). We preferred it over the canned Epson profile for Luster paper too. Its amazing how good the profiles are considering the few patches that needed to be measured.

[shewhorn]

You can use ColorMunki with Spectra View and get the best of both worlds.  The software is available separately from the X-Rite puck that can only be used ofr monitor calibration.  ColorMunki builds quite good paper profiles if you are interested in going that route.

That is a good option but here's a different perspective... In order to really consider what the best course of action is for pixtweak we really need to know more about their setup. If the end goal is producing a better print, a ColorMunki might not be the best thing to spend money on. Without knowing what other gear they have it's a hard call (which is why I suggested maybe checking out the Booksmart profiles first). Let's say the best lens they have is a $100 variable aperture kit lens? Saving that money and putting it into a better lens would probably make a bigger difference in print quality. So many variables to consider so I just wanted to put that out there.

Cheers, Joe

[pixtweak]

Thanks all for responding. I am tossing around the options, including some other custom profile options. Anyone use Chromix, ie. Color Valet service? At least the monitor choice is settled.

[Mark Paulson]

Agreed. There are some advantages to using a colorimeter for the display (its a bit better at measuring dark areas) but the Munki will do a fine job and makes quite excellent paper profiles. In fact, last week I was teaching a class at the Vancouver Photo Workshops and the guy who runs the place was making profiles with the Munki and comparing them to the one I build our first day using an EyeOne Pro, 1728 patches and ProfileMaker Pro. We preferred the Munki profile, especially after a single iteration of grays (Marc there prints a lot of B&W outside the Epson Advanced B&W driver settings). We preferred it over the canned Epson profile for Luster paper too. Its amazing how good the profiles are considering the few patches that needed to be measured.

I would love to do some tests on the Color Munki and the i1 iSis. I would love to create some profile with Monaco Profiler if someone would like to send me a print of my Atkinson 1728 or send me a target printed for a Color Munki.

[digitaldog]

I would love to do some tests on the Color Munki and the i1 iSis. I would love to create some profile with Monaco Profiler if someone would like to send me a print of my Atkinson 1728 or send me a target printed for a Color Munki.

The problem is, remote profiling with the Munki is kind of difficult. You have to print and measure out target 1, read it in, then the software has to print out target 2. So if I sent you a target printed for the Munki, there’s no way for me to print page 2 (this is all done within the host software). Unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re asking for.

[petervdwerf]

Hi guys,

I do partime webdevelopment/design and am an active amateur photographer. I've choosen to only work in sRGB. I know sRGB is a smaller colorspace but currently all of my output is sRGB, so for me switching to aRGB would only add extra and unneeded steps in my workflow. Maybe I'll switch someday, but not for now. (So please no advise on that issue;)).

I wanted the NEC 2490wuxi for supposedly being the best sRGB/standard gamut monitor around at aprox. 1000euro. But it's no longer available, so in the end I ordered the PA241W for being the next best thing (or even better;)..)
I intend to use the SpectraView2 software to hardware calibrate the PA241W to the sRGB colorspace. My idea is that this  'limits' the display and essentially gives me a calibrated sRGB monitor (right?), as the needed adjustments are stored into the display itself. But after some reading to last few days, I'm not completely sure anymore..

So, my question:
In my assumption I no longer need to assign a created monitor calibration profile to the OS or to applications or in applications that are colormanagement-aware, as long as I choose the appropriate colorspace that matches my display (eg srgB in Photoshop/Lightroom). And non-colormanagement-aware applications assume sRGB allready, so no colorissues on that end....

Is that correct?

[Ethan_Hansen]

[SNIP]
I intend to use the SpectraView2 software to hardware calibrate the PA241W to the sRGB colorspace. My idea is that this  'limits' the display and essentially gives me a calibrated sRGB monitor (right?), as the needed adjustments are stored into the display itself. But after some reading to last few days, I'm not completely sure anymore..

So, my question:
In my assumption I no longer need to assign a created monitor calibration profile to the OS or to applications or in applications that are colormanagement-aware, as long as I choose the appropriate colorspace that matches my display (eg srgB in Photoshop/Lightroom). And non-colormanagement-aware applications assume sRGB allready, so no colorissues on that end....

Is that correct?

The sRGB mode with the PA241W gets the monitor output semi-close to sRGB. You still will not be seeing the correct colors in your images unless a monitor profile is also used.

Photoshop and Lightroom will load the profile created by Spectraview unless you manually go into the OS color preferences and assign sRGB as your monitor profile. sRGB is your least-bad choice for images destined for the web or other non-color managed viewing environments. The sRGB color space roughly describes the uncalibrated output of a mid-1990's medium quality CRT. Many new LCD displays have an sRGB emulation mode. It is not the default, as the standard setup typically aims for maximum brightness for video gaming. Nonetheless, sRGB is the closest thing to a universal, uncalibrated viewing color space.

Applications and operating systems that are not color managed make no assumptions about what color space an image has. The RGB values in the image are simply thrown at the video card and display to appear however the hardware is set. If the whitepoint is in the neighborhood of 6500K, gamma is 2.2, and the primaries are close to those of sRGB, your sRGB images will be reproduced reasonably accurately. If the whitepoint is at a standard OEM setting closer to 9000K, they won't.

[Mark Paulson]

The problem is, remote profiling with the Munki is kind of difficult. You have to print and measure out target 1, read it in, then the software has to print out target 2. So if I sent you a target printed for the Munki, there’s no way for me to print page 2 (this is all done within the host software). Unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re asking for.

Ah, I have not used the Munki, so I was unfamiliar with the process. I can't think of a way to do it. It will be interesting to use the new software, which if I am understanding correctly, will use the same process with larger samples. Right now I'm so chapped at X-Rite, I don't know if I will be keeping my iSis and MP.

[digitaldog]

Ah, I have not used the Munki, so I was unfamiliar with the process. I can't think of a way to do it. It will be interesting to use the new software, which if I am understanding correctly, will use the same process with larger samples. Right now I'm so chapped at X-Rite, I don't know if I will be keeping my iSis and MP.

You print a single page of 50 patches, read it in. Software then generates, based on that data, another 50 patches which you read in and build the profile.

[BJNY]

The sRGB mode with the PA241W gets the monitor output semi-close to sRGB. You still will not be seeing the correct colors in your images unless a monitor profile is also used.

Photoshop and Lightroom will load the profile created by Spectraview unless you manually go into the OS color preferences and assign sRGB as your monitor profile. sRGB is your least-bad choice for images destined for the web or other non-color managed viewing environments. The sRGB color space roughly describes the uncalibrated output of a mid-1990's medium quality CRT. Many new LCD displays have an sRGB emulation mode. It is not the default, as the standard setup typically aims for maximum brightness for video gaming. Nonetheless, sRGB is the closest thing to a universal, uncalibrated viewing color space.

Applications and operating systems that are not color managed make no assumptions about what color space an image has. The RGB values in the image are simply thrown at the video card and display to appear however the hardware is set. If the whitepoint is in the neighborhood of 6500K, gamma is 2.2, and the primaries are close to those of sRGB, your sRGB images will be reproduced reasonably accurately. If the whitepoint is at a standard OEM setting closer to 9000K, they won't.

Ethan, then which hardware-calibrated displays (24", 27", 30")
gets closest to sRGB, please?

Thanks.

[shewhorn]

Ethan, then which hardware-calibrated displays (24", 27", 30")
gets closest to sRGB, please?

Thanks.

The NEC 2490 was always a solid performer in the sRGB department. B&H is out but I'm sure someone still has stock. Excellent black levels.

Cheers, Joe

[Ethan_Hansen]

The best overall sRGB emulation I have seen was on our HP Dreamcolor LP2480. Of course, it took four monitor returns to get a unit that performed well without across-screen color casts and now that the panel itself is out of production...

The only new NEC we have (aside from the semi-disposable ones that get shipped or put on a plane for on-location work) is the PA241. The out-of-the-box sRGB mode is pretty good. The blue primary is not close to sRGB, but that is to be expected. It also appears that the preset gamma is a constant 2.2 rather than the split between linear (gamma = 1.0) shadows and non-linear over the rest of the curve. Close enough for real applications, particularly if you are targetting the web.

[WillH]

The only new NEC we have (aside from the semi-disposable ones that get shipped or put on a plane for on-location work) is the PA241. The out-of-the-box sRGB mode is pretty good. The blue primary is not close to sRGB, but that is to be expected. It also appears that the preset gamma is a constant 2.2 rather than the split between linear (gamma = 1.0) shadows and non-linear over the rest of the curve. Close enough for real applications, particularly if you are targetting the web.

What measurement device are you using to evaluate the sRGB primaries? The factory adjustment is done using a lab grade spectro device so it will be much more accurate than most off the shelf devices at measuring the primaries. Also the sRGB gamma curve is a true sRGB response with linear toe.

[Ethan_Hansen]

What measurement device are you using to evaluate the sRGB primaries? The factory adjustment is done using a lab grade spectro device so it will be much more accurate than most off the shelf devices at measuring the primaries.

Our setup pairs the colorimeter or spectrophotometer in question with a Photo Research PR-730 spectroradiometer. The PR-730 is one of the few instruments on the market capable of accurate measurements of polarized sources (e.g. LCD screens) at the low light levels the best current displays can produce for black and that high quality colorimeters can read. It also is fairly fast and has various turbo modes that give very quick and adequately accurate readings of brighter values. Most importantly, however, it is the best instrument we could sweet-talk a several month loan to use.

We are updating our review of monitor calibration software and characterizing the strengths and weaknesses of measurement pucks, both colorimeters and spectrophotometers. The instrument characterization came about because it became apparent that some calibration packages worked well with certain monitors but not others. In some cases, the variation was due to the capabilities of the measurement puck, while in others the software itself made assumptions about display behavior that were incorrect. My hope is to have the full details posted this week.

[!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=WillH)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE (WillH)[div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Also the sRGB gamma curve is a true sRGB response with linear toe.[/quote]

It is an approximation of a gamma 2.2 curve (gamma 2.4 with an offset so matrix inversion can be performed using only integer arithmetic -- essential in the days of slow, limited processors). The linear toe also avoids the need to check for divide by zero (or close enough to create numerical overflow errors) down in the mud. Computational speed and simplicity were paramount in the spec.