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Author Topic: Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?  (Read 21780 times)

shewhorn

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So I have a package of Lexjet photo metallic waiting for me at my studio. In speaking with Lexjet I asked them where the profiles were and they said "it can't be profiled". I asked why and they couldn't really give me a specific answer (I was looking for a more technical reason as to why not). The ex-engineer in me has A LOT of difficulty believing this. If it reflects light then you ought to be able to measure it. With the extremely high gloss of this paper I can understand why there might be some issues in doing so but still... it's just physics and you ought to be able to measure it somehow. Would the polarizing filter on the Spectrolino take care of this? I already own an i1 Pro and have a Spectroscan/Spectrolino package on the way. Surely it's possible as I've worked with numerous labs (RA-4 process) that have metallic paper (and to be fair I've never seen the Lexjet paper before so I have NO idea how it compares to RA-4 metallic prints) that have metallic prints and they all manage to provide ICC profiles for it so, assuming this Lexjet stuff is somewhere in the ballpark it is possible.

Cheers, Joe
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shewhorn

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2010, 10:53:19 pm »

Just a followup.... just printed out some test charts on the 8300 (generated via Argyll CMS) and scanned them in... yeah, the resulting profile is ummm... yeah. LOL Did it with an i1 Pro (UV Cut). My Spectroscan/Spectrolino should arrive in a few days. I'll try again with that. I'll post the ICC profile a little later if anyone wants to download it for a good laugh.

Cheers, Joe
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digitaldog

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2010, 08:50:05 am »

I don’t know why it would be an issue as you point out. I doubt the Spectrolino will produce much difference however, the EyeOne is a respectable instrument.
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shewhorn

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 10:41:12 am »

Quote from: digitaldog
I don’t know why it would be an issue as you point out. I doubt the Spectrolino will produce much difference however, the EyeOne is a respectable instrument.

Well, I just rescanned the target and it went MUCH better this time although a little more work is needed. I'm new to Argyll CMS and last night was the first time I've scanned a target in using readchart. With ProfileMaker Measure Tool I've experimented with different speeds when reading the strips and I've found that the measurement data where I scanned the strip in very slowly and smoothly had a MUCH higher dE than when I went faster. This doesn't make any sense to me at all but that's what the numbers said. Argyll on the other hand likes a VERY VERY VERY S L O W speed. Too fast and it barks at you. This morning I scanned the target in VERY slowly and it seemed much happier (less redos on each strip due to a read error). The other thing I did was to turn on the high resolution mode so that may have made a difference as well... I don't know. I suppose I could do another scan with the high res mode turned off (it's almost as fun as watching paint dry). I'm going to do three scans and average the results together and see what I get. I suspect I'll need to do a little bit of target optimization as I'm not getting a very linear response in the shadows. The color seems okay (potentially something funky going on in the blues... the profile could be a little smoother) but the luminance in the shadows is off. I used the default 918 patch target. If there are any Argyll users that have any tips for optimizing targets I'm all ears.

Cheers, Joe
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shewhorn

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 10:51:33 am »

And... with the profile I built this morning, while I wouldn't call it a good profile it's a HECK of a lot better than a non-existing profile and I'm extremely confident in saying that this paper can be profiled as I expected it could. At this point it's a matter of tweaking the profile and getting more familiar with Argyll CMS.

Cheers, Joe
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neile

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2010, 01:53:04 am »

I spoke to the Lexjet folks by phone today to see if they have sample packs of the paper available (they don't), and while I was on the phone the lady specifically mentioned the paper couldn't be profiled. She recommended using their Sunset Photo eSatin profile instead.

Glad to hear people are having some success profiling. I'll give it a whirl when my pack of 50 shows up using my crappy old Spyder 2. Who knows, maybe it'll be awesome

Neil

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Colorwave

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 02:06:13 am »

Joe, and anybody else that has their hands on this paper:
Can you describe the surface and level of metallic reflectivity?  My sales rep said that it is designed as a carbon copy for Fuji metallic or Kodak Endura, but I believe that those both have polyester film bases.  This one is supposed to be an alpha cellulose base, which I would assume means more texture.  Is it as smooth and glossy as the other products?  How does the reflectivity compare?  I was told that they do not offer samples so that they may better serve their customers, and that I should order a roll to test and send it back if I don't like it with their "no questions asked" return policy.  The only problem would be that I would be out shipping both directions.  Frankly, I'd just prefer to hear if others have success printing with it and would like to see a sample to evaluate the surface.  An easy return policy is nice, but I think samples are quite useful as well.
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Ken Doo

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2010, 09:46:21 am »

This is a cut/paste over from GetDPI from my experience with the new Lexjet metallic and Red River metallic medias:  "Red River Paper has released their new Polar Pearl Metallic paper, and it is hyped up to be similar to Kodak's Endura Metallic. I picked up a 24" roll and am printing test images on my Epson 9800. A 24" x 100 roll is about US$236.

In a nutshell: The RR Polar Pearl shares some similarities with the Kodak Metallic, but it's not quite an exact replacement. Kodak's Metallic still has quite a bit more zing to it, and still remains quite unique. To be fair, the Polar Pearl does seem to be more "color balanced" and probably more suitable for portraits, and less prone to blow out the highlights as the Kodak Metallic is known to do if not careful. If it makes any sense, the Polar Pearl has more of a "gentle" metallic characteristic, thus "pearl." The surface of the Polar Pearl Metallic is a somewhat fragile paper, though probably not quite as much as Harman's Baryta. Spraying with Premier Art Shield is probably not recommended. The paper surface is very smooth and shiny; spraying leaves a light gritty feel. No idea as to longevity or archivability, though with pigmented inks we'll probably all be long gone or in retirement homes and unable to recall what the initial image looked like in the first place. (Guy will still be buying a new MFDB every other year...)

Lexjet is also releasing their Sunset Metallic Paper---which coincidentally is also a 10 mil, 255 gm paper like the Red River Polar Pearl. I'm placing bets it's the same paper but with a different label. Lexjet is more expensive (no surprise) and costs US$279 for a 24" x 100 roll. I have a 10" x 100 roll from Lexjet coming in soon. Both Lexjet and Red River will offer rolls up to 44" wide----so this is the big news in terms of offering something "similar" to Kodak Metallic without the 30" wide limitation. The RR Polar Pearl Metallic Paper looks good for both color and B&W images. At the very least, it is a good "glossy" media option. I'd expect similar of Lexjet's offering. I'm inclined to keep a 10" roll and 44" roll on hand in studio.

Lexjet says it is not really possible to generate an icc printer profile on their metallic, though Imageprint has one for Lexjet's paper I am told. Red River provides an icc printer profile and it does seem to be accurate. Again, if the the papers are the same, you can probably use the Red River icc profile on the Lexjet paper brand. I haven't tried generating my own icc profiles with Spyder 3 Print."  The thread link:  http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11941

And now my UPDATE:

I'm positive these two metallic wanna-be papers are the SAME.  Is it the oh-so coincidental 255 gm 10 mil similarity that tipped me off?  well, maybe.  But the clincher is that both rolls use that same damned white tape to secure the paper roll end onto the media---which literally has stronger adhesive properties than duct tape, forcing you to lose the first 12-17" of media because it is impossible to remove without damaging the paper where the tape has adhered.  Whoever is the packing manufacturer needs to take some packing lessons from the folks over at Hahnemuhle.  If you're a knuckle-dragger and like fixing things with duct tape, then you really need to find some of this adhesive white tape they use here---it makes duct tape look like Scotch magic tape.

I printed up one image on both the 24" Red River roll and the 10" roll of Lexjet.  I cannot see a difference.  I think the claims of being a carbon copy to Kodak's Endura metallic are more hype---or over-claims (is that a word?).  Both share "metallic" qualities and are quite nice, but they are not Kodak Metallic clones.  How about "super glossy replacement with metallic qualities?"  Red River sells their Polar Pearl for less than Lexjet---no surprise, but only Lexjet offers the 10" rolls.  Red River tells me that they will be offering 44" rolls soon.  (I don't print sheets).

Oh---so the big TIP here is try using the icc printer profiles from Red River's Polar Pearl Metallic----it works fine on the Sunset Metallic paper.  (I haven't tried generating my own profiles with Spyder 3 Print).
See the right hand column:  http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/66lb...hoto-paper.html

Ken  

p.s.  I'm told that Lexjet will soon be posting icc profiles that they have been working on for their Sunset Metallic.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 01:56:53 pm by kdphotography »
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neile

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 10:19:34 am »

Wow, thanks for all the detail Ken! I wish I'd seen that yesterday before I placed my order from Lexjet. I guess I'll be out $10 in shipping costs, but you can bet I'll return the paper and order the smaller box from Red River.

Neil

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Ken Doo

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 11:52:02 am »

Quote from: neile
Wow, thanks for all the detail Ken! I wish I'd seen that yesterday before I placed my order from Lexjet. I guess I'll be out $10 in shipping costs, but you can bet I'll return the paper and order the smaller box from Red River.

Neil

I can't tell you what the varying costs may be, and for s/h as well (I wasn't too happy with the $19.50 s/h charge from Lexjet for the 10" roll)---but apparently both Lexjet and Red River are offering different sizes of the media, which means patronizing both vendors depending on what you need.

I also just spoke with Lexjet, who will soon be releasing profiles that they have been working on for their metallic paper.  Definitely worth a look.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 01:40:52 pm by kdphotography »
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Doyle Yoder

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2010, 12:01:03 pm »

Quote from: neile
I spoke to the Lexjet folks by phone today to see if they have sample packs of the paper available (they don't), and while I was on the phone the lady specifically mentioned the paper couldn't be profiled. She recommended using their Sunset Photo eSatin profile instead.

Glad to hear people are having some success profiling. I'll give it a whirl when my pack of 50 shows up using my crappy old Spyder 2. Who knows, maybe it'll be awesome

Neil

I do not understand what she is talking about. I have created profiles for my iPF Canon 9000 for both the plugin and the driver I don't see any issues with the profiles. Profiles appear close to profiles for the esatin but not the same, but I was using different media settings.

Doyle
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natas

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2010, 12:06:03 pm »

I have been using the RR pearl since it came out. It works very well with portrait prints. I am local here in Dallas so I have got to work with RR on some other stuff they have tried with the Pearl paper.

For portraits this stuff looks awesome. I however am not a fan of the Pearl for color landscape shots....BUT if you have any landscape shots in B&W this stuff is freaking awesome. I printed out a B&W shot from Yosemite and my jaw dropped.

My portrait clients love this stuff and are willing to pay the extra cost for the paper. In fact 9 out of 10 people have preferred it over IGFS
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Colorwave

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2010, 12:26:48 pm »

Thanks, everybody for the info and feedback.  To those who say it is not well suited for color landscapes, can you offer why?  Does it have posterized shadows, blown out highlights, bronzing, etc.?
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shewhorn

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2010, 09:56:31 am »

Quote from: Colorwave
Thanks, everybody for the info and feedback.  To those who say it is not well suited for color landscapes, can you offer why?  Does it have posterized shadows, blown out highlights, bronzing, etc.?

Ken, thanks for that run down, most appreciated. I think "Metallic-ish" is a pretty decent description of it.

Cheers, Joe
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neile

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2010, 11:12:52 am »

Quote from: Doyle Yoder
I do not understand what she is talking about. I have created profiles for my iPF Canon 9000 for both the plugin and the driver I don't see any issues with the profiles. Profiles appear close to profiles for the esatin but not the same, but I was using different media settings.

Doyle

Doyle, what media type did you use? I'm on a 5100.

Neil
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Doyle Yoder

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 04:48:23 pm »

Quote from: neile
Doyle, what media type did you use? I'm on a 5100.

Neil

Not sure the Media Types are exactly the same, But I used Premium Gloss Paper 280.

Doyle
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natas

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 11:42:45 am »

Quote from: Colorwave
Thanks, everybody for the info and feedback.  To those who say it is not well suited for color landscapes, can you offer why?  Does it have posterized shadows, blown out highlights, bronzing, etc.?

I think its more of a persons taste. To me that metallic/pearl look works well for black and whites and portraits (makes skin tones look good most of the time). However I do not like what it does to skies and certain colors. This is just me
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Colorwave

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2010, 12:42:34 pm »

Thanks, natas.  I was wondering if it was aesthetics or technical issues.  I know that Peter Lik has built a very popular franchise off of large metallic landscape prints, and I have a couple of other landscape customers that are interested in trying metallic prints.  I was just wondering if the inkjet metallic paper had properties that made it less suited to landscape than the Fuji/Kodak.
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dgberg

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2010, 07:04:23 am »

Finally received my Lexjet Metallic paper and the first several prints out of my Epson 9900 were pretty stunning. I used the Red River Metallic profile and Epsons premium gloss 250 media setting. My Lexjet rep tells me they are working on the profile and will have it out in a very short time.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 07:05:24 am by Dan Berg »
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neile

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Profiling LexJet Sunset photo metallic - Lexjet says it can't be done?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2010, 09:56:31 am »

Quote from: Dan Berg
Finally received my Lexjet Metallic paper and the first several prints out of my Epson 9900 were pretty stunning. I used the Red River Metallic profile and Epsons premium gloss 250 media setting. My Lexjet rep tells me they are working on the profile and will have it out in a very short time.

I spoke with someone at LexJet yesterday and they insist the paper is different than the Red River Metallic. I have a box of the Red River on the way as well, so will do a side-by-side comparison and see if I can spot a difference.

Neil
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