Alpa = just good marketing spin or real advantage?

[PaulSchneider]

Hi guys!

I have a question for you regarding technical view cameras. I just ordered a Cambo RS System with the new 43 XL because I got a really good deal for everything. In fact, everything considered, an equivalent Alpa system comes in at almost 165 % the price. I tried to get a better deal from Alpa Switzerland, but all I was offered where a measly 7.6. percent reduction. I won't get into the details here, but my dealer gave me substantially more price reduction on the cambo system that's already cheaper by itself. One reason for this is because I'm a student and this helped to get a better price. In the end the decision, if based on a value consideration, was crystal clear in favor of Cambo.

Nonetheless I would like to know if there are really any big differences worth the price differential.

This, because this whole high-end pricing strategy from Alpa begs the question of value to me.

Having said this, I'd be grateful if some of you Cambo and Alpa owners who tried the other system could comment on any tangible differences in terms of image quality. Aesthetics aside, please.


So here's the situation as I perceived it: If marketing speak is to believed, Alpa is superior in all regards to other manufacturer's cameras: their precision construction supposedly uses the highest construction standards possible (Swiss precision engineering, courtesy of Seitz) and supposedly because all movements are contained within the frame of the camera, stitching should be more precise ...

Question no. 1: Cambo has been here for a long time too. And they've got a lot of experience in building cameras, I guess. Is there any truth to it, that the specific way Alpa cameras are constructed, i.e. the Alpa Max or XY, that there are any effective advantages in terms of stitching? Or is this just marketing speak? I cannot believe that Cambo wouldn't as well do it that way (I'm talking about a camera body that contains the shifting mechanism) if there was seriously some advantage to it. Or wouldn't they?

Secondly, there's this whole marketing talk about their special adjustable back adapters. You know the thing about shimming the adapter to perfectly marry back to camera. Supposedly the tolerances of digital back manufacturers aren't as high as Alpa thinks they should be in order to get most out of the lenses. In this website's review of the Alpa camera this aspect is emphasized a lot.

Question no. 2.: If this is true, i.e. that shimming is a necessary in order to properly exploit the high-end optics used with these cameras, why is it that other view camera manufacturers haven't yet adopted similar solutions? I mean it shouldn't be too hard for the likes of Arca Swiss or Cambo to create such adjustable back adapters??

Or is this another case of clever marketing?

These videos seem to indicate that shimming is a real advantage, but still I can't fathom why the other manufacturers haven't yet jumped onto the bandwagon ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajteLwe-ntE

These aforementioned claims to superiority should also lead to better imagery. If this is the case, there IS a reason to spend more on Alpa cameras.

But my real question is: How much of all this is just marketing, how much is a real difference??

And as I said, it is not fruitful to discuss the aesthetics ..

Kindes regards for any insightful feedback!

[tho_mas]

As to the shimmig thing... it's not marketing hype. It's essential that the spacing of the sensor is extremely accurate to achieve maximum sharpness at infintiy.
But... you can also simply adjust the lens (i.e. the lock position for infinity) which is much easier than shimming the camera interface. You simply have to loosen the 3 screws of the focus ring on the lens, adjust the accurate infinity setting and than retighten the screws. The upside here is you can tether the DB and adjust the lens without the need to remove the DB and camera interface. It's easy and fast.
The upside of shimming the camera interface is that you adjust the sensor to the same plane as the groundglass. In reverse the downside of adjusting the lens is that your customized lens adjustment might not match the plane of the groundglass.
I have not experienced any misalignment of my groundglass (Cambo) though I have re-adjustet my lenses. Actually the GG alignment seems to be very good... within the limitations a groundglass is suitable for focussing.

[PaulSchneider]

As to the shimmig thing... it's not marketing hype. It's essential that the spacing of the sensor is extremely accurate to achieve maximum sharpness at infintiy.
But... you can also simply adjust the lens (i.e. the lock position for infinity) which is much easier than shimming the camera interface. You simply have to loosen the 3 screws of the focus ring on the lens, adjust the accurate infinity setting and than retighten the screws. The upside here is you can tether the DB and adjust the lens without the need to remove the DB and camera interface. It's easy and fast.
The upside of shimming the camera interface is that you adjust the sensor to the same plane as the groundglass. In reverse the downside of adjusting the lens is that your customized lens adjustment might not match the plane of the groundglass.
I have not experienced any misalignment of my groundglass (Cambo) though I have re-adjustet my lenses. Actually the GG alignment seems to be very good... within the limitations a groundglass is suitable for focussing.

Thomas, thank you for your comment. So I gather that the adjustable adapter just seems to be a more convenient solution to a problem (which one has to pay for nicely) that also can be overcome by your method - which is just more cumbersome, i.e. because you need to adjust every lens?

Having said this, this leads to the conclusion that you can achieve the same quality with a cambo system than you can with an Alpa system?

Thomas, finally and this is a non-related question: How is it to work with a groundglass? Aren't you worried about the many times you have to swap groundglass and camera back - i mean every time there's the possibility of dust coming onto the sensor.

I ask you this because I still haven't decided whether a groundglass is a worthwile investment if one already has a viewfinder? Do you use both?

Regards

Paul

[tho_mas]

you need to adjust every lens?

correct. but it's a matter of 15-20 minutes ... so it's not a big deal.

you can achieve the same quality with a cambo system than you can with an Alpa system?

regarding the infinity setting of the lens resp. the sensor spacing... yes, of course.
as to movements... I don't know. Alpas are really beautifully made cameras. but i also have no isses with my WRS.

Aren't you worried about the many times you have to swap groundglass and camera back - i mean every time there's the possibility of dust coming onto the sensor.

rarely.
it depends on how you shoot. i actually don't shoot variations of the same motif from the same camera position. i mostly only take one shot.
so i don't have to swap DB and GG that often. I spend much time in looking at the motif, then i setup the camera, mount the GG for composition, remove it, mount the DB, shoot.

I ask you this because I still haven't decided whether a groundglass is a worthwile investment if one already has a viewfinder? Do you use both?

yes, i use both. but i use the viewfinder mostly before i setup the camera. the viewfinder is no substitution for a GG... especially not if you use the gridlines of the GG to adjust the camera straight and parallel to the motif.

[PaulSchneider]

correct. but it's a matter of 15-20 minutes ... so it's not a big deal.

regarding the infinity setting of the lens resp. the sensor spacing... yes, of course.
as to movements... I don't know. Alpas are really beautifully made cameras. but i also have no isses with my WRS.

rarely.
it depends on how you shoot. i actually don't shoot variations of the same motif from the same camera position. i mostly only take one shot.
so i don't have to swap DB and GG that often. I spend much time in looking at the motif, then i setup the camera, mount the GG for composition, remove it, mount the DB, shoot.

yes, i use both. but i use the viewfinder mostly before i setup the camera. the viewfinder is no substitution for a GG... especially not if you use the gridlines of the GG to adjust the camera straight and parallel to the motif.

Thomas, thank you very much for these insights. I see that the groundglass can be a lot more accurate ... One more question though in this regard: Do you think a focusing hood is needed when using a groundglass? For Cambo sells one. Or do you use a loupe? Or nothing at all except your bare eyes?

Regards

Paul

[adammork]

This is from an old post of mine, from a topic that dealt with camera tolerances:

"To be honest I always thought that all the talk about 0.01 mm was to much marketing talk and I thought with a smile on the face, that the fussiness about so small tolerances had something to do with the water they drink in switzerland :-) - that was until I got a new back that had a bit different focus plane than the old, I took the adjustable Alpa V adapter and started to shim it - I don't smile anymore at the swiss, only at my own ignorance....... 0.1 mm (millimetre) change the focus a lot and yes you can just see a difference in 0.01 mm - it do not ruin the image at all, but there is a difference..... yes it's too scary"

When I for 3-4 years ago realised that my Arca monolith and Misura not was up to the task for producing consistent results with the widest lenses, the choice of Alpa seemed at that time quit easy. Today there is more good cameras to choose from, and I think the Cambo RS is one of them - I have a very good friend a college that use one - IMO the Alpa have a more versatile and huge expanding system, as mentioned the precision is perfect and they are just soo well and beautiful crafted.

There are also the small details, like you can turn the lens board in every 90 degrees direction so it's always easy to look and use the shutter settings no matter where you are placed towards the camera - but the importens of those details are of course very personal - like some could never dream of shooting without a stitching back - I don't care about that - so think hard about your need and wishes.

and in the end of the day, none of those cameras will give you good light.....  


/adam

[rhsu]

Thomas, thank you very much for these insights. I see that the groundglass can be a lot more accurate ... One more question though in this regard: Do you think a focusing hood is needed when using a groundglass? For Cambo sells one. Or do you use a loupe? Or nothing at all except your bare eyes?

Regards

Paul

Just to further add to Thomas remarks, Henk from Cambo has added on their Cambo website that their GG is shipped with Frensel.  And having tested with arTec GG w/ Fresnel, you can get fairly good DOF WYSIWYG - of course with the loupe.  I think arTec is a 3x and works brilliantly.

You need to compare Cambo focusing hood vs brand loupes out there 3x, 4x etc...  

I will be getting my Cambo GG very soon esp it is NOW shipped with Fresnel and a 3x/4x loupe.

cheers

[schaubild]

Yesterday I went to the local Bentley dealer. I'm learning to drive and it should be in their interest to have as many cars from them on the road as possible. But due to some strange thinking they refused to give me a substancial discount on their cars. Why won't these guys understand that cheaper is better?

 



Serious advice: buy the best camera you can afford and concentrate on what you're doing. There is always some superior piece of gear, but that shouldn't distract your work.

[narikin]

yeah and Bentleys are just Volkswagens with their party dress on. so thank you for making the point very well.

Alpa are indeed overpriced. every single little item. if you like paying $200-400-+++  for each extra (essential) piece, often just a simple metal bracket, then go ahead.  thank goodness for competition (Cambo and Arca)

[Kevin Raber]

ALPA has been very generous and is working with Phase One by providing an ALPA camera and lenses for our PODAS workshops. I tried the camera and lenses out for the first time two weeks ago and was blown away by the quality of the image. The quality of the camera and engineering that goes into has to be seen to really be appreciated. So, on my return I was encouraged by several people to run the shimming exercise. I watched the video and set up a method for doing the exercise. Oh my!!! I was shocked.  I have a series of images made doing the process that shows factory shim mount and then adding different shims for each photo. I viewed them with Capture One all sharpening turned off, processed the images to tiff and viewed them in Photoshop. I finally settled on a .05 and a .02 shim added to the shim that was in the mont when shimmed. The progression of images is amazing and really makes the ALPA  lenses and P65+ back stand out. We’ll show the images during each PODAS workshop so attendees can see what they might just possibly be missing. This is a one time shim excercise. Once it is done you don’t have to do it again. The time invested will truly be worthwhile.

[archivue]

it tooks me 6 months to decide between Alpa Max, Cambo RS, and Arca RM3D... i went for the Arca, and no regrets so far !

The price is in the middle of the road between Cambo and Alpa.

It uses a spacial focusing ring, more precise than the competition.

Tilt with all lenses

Sliding back available

Can be used hand held if necessary

Shift on the back

the best viewfinder

really nice finish

[LKaven]

yeah and Bentleys are just Volkswagens with their party dress on. so thank you for making the point very well.

Alpa are indeed overpriced. every single little item. if you like paying $200-400-+++  for each extra (essential) piece, often just a simple metal bracket, then go ahead.  thank goodness for competition (Cambo and Arca)

I always wonder why people see cars as being an analogy for cameras with expensive cars equaling expensive cameras.  I guess for people who buy cameras as luxury and status symbols, maybe they're on to something.  But when was a luxury car ever a premium tool for producing works for sale (extreme conceptual art aside) and bought as such?  The day we all start treating them as Subarus insofar as cars are concerned, the better off we'll be as a lot.  The Pentax 645D can't come soon enough for my tastes, and if Leica came down to earth, they'd be more Leicable.

[rueyloon]

I've learnt that you can "shim" your camera by just adding tape to the mount. The difference you can add to the distance is about 0.3mm. Of course you can only add length and not reduce it.

Yes, it is not a 100% solution, but it is a 50% solution for not spending the loads of money to go on to an Alpa for that advantage.

[rhsu]

I always wonder why people see cars as being an analogy for cameras with expensive cars equaling expensive cameras....

...it's because they both depreciate just as bad once your drive off the yard or walk out of the shop....  

Alpa is great piece of equipment.  And because Phaseone is the only one of the few that works well with tech cameras (trust me on this...) they are doing packaging deals with Cambo and Alpa.  Sinar arTec is one near perfect equipment and is formidably paired to their DBs but have yet to get feedbacks from others using non-Sinar DB with arTec.  

[JeffT]

These are all good questions, and I think that either a Cambo or Alpa will serve any photographer well. Yes there are quality and system differences, but not likely enough manufacture quality difference to effect the final image. Alpa clearly is the better made product. I own the Alpa Max and have used a Cambo RS. Both work just fine. I went with the Alpa, surely not because of cost...yikes! I happen to have a very good dealer in Seattle (Paul at Optechs) and Alpa products are readily available, usually no more than 2 weeks delivery time if he doesn't have it in stock. I can certainly say Cambo is not as fast when the product is not in stock...at least not for my Cambo Ultima 23D where it may take up to 8 weeks if Cambo in the Netherlands doesn't have it in stock.

There is just no substitute for taking each camera out for a trial run, shooting what you shoot and see which camera fits your workflow the best. I wouldn't worry about quality between the three major plate tech cameras available (Alpa, Arca, Cambo). Based on my own experience with Alpa and Cambo and what I have heard from users of the Arca, any will do the job. If you use tilt/swing often, then Cambo has the most useful implementation allowing t/s in both planes simultaneously and with lenses down to 28mm. Not so with Alpa, only allowing tilt or swing and only down to 90mm lenses if you still want infinity focus. For me that was less of an issue for shooting landscape since out in the field it is just easier for me to use focus bracketing. For me the top priority was a good dealer and availability of product. Determine your priorities (cost vs. functionality vs. quality dealer vs. product availability) and then make your decision.

[JeffT]

Forgot question 2. Others in this thread have described the relative importance of shimming. I would only add that it is usually only important if you plan on making large prints or want to fully exploit the resolution of the P65+ and Leaf 10 backs.

Another poster also stated that only Phase One backs work perfectly with tech cameras, "...Alpa is great piece of equipment. And because Phaseone is the only one of the few that works well with tech cameras (trust me on this...)...";    well not exactly. I use Leaf backs, primarily a 75S and have used the Leaf 10...they work without a hitch and no need for a wake-up cable. Not sure what the poster is talking about.

[micek]

 

because Phaseone is the only one of the few that works well with tech cameras (trust me on this...)

Just for the record, I work with an Alpa + Leaf outfit, and have never had a problem.

[rljones]

My Alpa 12TC with P65+ (in Contax 645 mount as I also use that camera) had a stock shim of 0.30mm. To obtain infinity focus, I had to reduce this to 0.19mm.

The adjustment was done using a Rodenstock 60mm HR lens since using a wider lens is more difficult to judge small infinity objects. It does take some time (60 min or so), going in steps: 0.30, 0.20, 0.15, 0.18, and finally, 0.19mm, while checking images on computer after each adjustment. But the results are decidedly worth the effort. The shims are supplied by Alpa with the mounting plate.

[rhsu]

Forgot question 2. Others in this thread have described the relative importance of shimming. I would only add that it is usually only important if you plan on making large prints or want to fully exploit the resolution of the P65+ and Leaf 10 backs.

Another poster also stated that only Phase One backs work perfectly with tech cameras, "...Alpa is great piece of equipment. And because Phaseone is the only one of the few that works well with tech cameras (trust me on this...)...";    well not exactly. I use Leaf backs, primarily a 75S and have used the Leaf 10...they work without a hitch and no need for a wake-up cable. Not sure what the poster is talking about.

Jeff,

Hey guys... my quote "Phase one backs is the only one of the FEW..."  (not "is the only one")  - original quote denotes a series of FEW workable DBs - NOT exclusiveness of the ONLY one - otherwise, it which would have contradicted my arTec w/ Sinar that I have been testing and Leaf (both Dalsa) ...  

I use HB for 2 years and it has been a distatrous choice with tech camera - fine in the studio environment.  I'm looking at Leaf, Sinar and Phase (Dalsa).

Hope that clarifies the misquotation...

[rhsu]

... and no need for a wake-up cable. Not sure what the poster is talking about.

...btw:  HB sold me on the premise of "no need for a wake-up cable" over the then P45+ that I was going to purchase w/ my also then Alpa TC (great compact gear - can't get any more compact than that - which is one of the main PLUS features - meaning, there are many equally plus features but the compactness is the main feature that drew my attention).  

Boy... how wrong that the two HB DBs turned out!  So at this stage... only the few that I intended to imply are all TRUE "one shot cable" DBs - no wake up for my RS