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fredjeang

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How do you back up your massive files?
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2010, 06:37:17 am »

Quote from: Rob C
Unfortunately, an even greater, unavoidable volume of shit comes packaged with that deal.

Rob C
That's what I'm trying to point.

We gain in many aspects but lost in many others too.

Look at this forum, 90% is about unstable softwares, gone colors profiles, lost datas, unsatisfaction with gear features, bad tethered, slow data transfer, unreliability of components, extreme cost of MF etc...

You say you can shoot more, truth but : How many hours, time and energy spent on internet simply looking for the right information, downloads,  solve computer problems, etc...I'm sure that in fact, this amount of time is huge. Where is the shooting when we have to deal with those shit in front of our monitor ?

The problem is that all that is a perfect jungle: Want to calibrate my monitor? Well here starts the race: Need to find the software, looking reviews here, there, watching users experience, then make sure this has no issues with the computer, etc...just for that task, hours and hours spent in order to know what is the right tool for one task, then calibrate and the next day they just released a new software that put this one into the dinausor age. And it's like that in every aspect.
Still run my Photoshop CS3 !! Feel already like a strange guy.

I'm not saying that internet is not usefull, it is indeed.  

But to my surprise, when I was a designer in an agency and had the oportunity to meet many pros and talk to them, many of them did not shoot more like crazy because of digital.
That's a point that always surprised me. I think that the pros have a better conscience of the equation income/outcome if I can say it that way.
They generally know what they do and don't shoot for shooting.
There are some niches like fashion, sport, where they shoot like crazy, but they where doing it in film age too.

To be back in this topic, the problem of backups is asked. Solutions? Diverse.
What's the best one? don't know. Cost? not that clear. Reliability? average.

The problem IMO is that digital has created a new race of behaviour very similar to antibiotics: fear.
I'm frighten not having enough frames: digisolution.
I'm frighten of loosing my backup: digipill
I'm frighten of not having enough DR: Nikon's injection
I'm frighten of not having enough compatibility: Canon's remedy
I'm frighten to be hill: antibiotics.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 06:42:18 am by fredjeang »
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Ray

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How do you back up your massive files?
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2010, 10:05:05 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
That's what I'm trying to point.

We gain in many aspects but lost in many others too.

Look at this forum, 90% is about unstable softwares, gone colors profiles, lost datas, unsatisfaction with gear features, bad tethered, slow data transfer, unreliability of components, extreme cost of MF etc...

You say you can shoot more, truth but : How many hours, time and energy spent on internet simply looking for the right information, downloads,  solve computer problems, etc...I'm sure that in fact, this amount of time is huge. Where is the shooting when we have to deal with those shit in front of our monitor ?

The problem is that all that is a perfect jungle: Want to calibrate my monitor? Well here starts the race: Need to find the software, looking reviews here, there, watching users experience, then make sure this has no issues with the computer, etc...just for that task, hours and hours spent in order to know what is the right tool for one task, then calibrate and the next day they just released a new software that put this one into the dinausor age. And it's like that in every aspect.
Still run my Photoshop CS3 !! Feel already like a strange guy.

I'm not saying that internet is not usefull, it is indeed.  

But to my surprise, when I was a designer in an agency and had the oportunity to meet many pros and talk to them, many of them did not shoot more like crazy because of digital.
That's a point that always surprised me. I think that the pros have a better conscience of the equation income/outcome if I can say it that way.
They generally know what they do and don't shoot for shooting.
There are some niches like fashion, sport, where they shoot like crazy, but they where doing it in film age too.

To be back in this topic, the problem of backups is asked. Solutions? Diverse.
What's the best one? don't know. Cost? not that clear. Reliability? average.

The problem IMO is that digital has created a new race of behaviour very similar to antibiotics: fear.
I'm frighten not having enough frames: digisolution.
I'm frighten of loosing my backup: digipill
I'm frighten of not having enough DR: Nikon's injection
I'm frighten of not having enough compatibility: Canon's remedy
I'm frighten to be hill: antibiotics.


No! no! no! Fred,

For me, the digital age is wonderful. I'll just 'pick you up' on a few points you've made, if you don't mind.

Quote
How many hours, time and energy spent on internet simply looking for the right information, downloads, solve computer problems, etc...I'm sure that in fact, this amount of time is huge. Where is the shooting when we have to deal with those shit in front of our monitor ?

Can I answer this with a question? What sort of life is it to spend half one's time in a smelly, dark, room, breathing in chemical odors which will likely be harmful to one's health in the long run? I feel very privileged that I can sit in a nice environment in front of my computer. I can interupt my work at any time, listen to music, watch the telly during a long computation process (such as image stitching), or admire the view through the window of my studio as the wallabies hop by.

Whatever I'm processing on my computer at any given moment, if I see something interesting outside, through the window, such as a visit by a migratory bird that I haven't encountered before, I can interupt what I'm doing, pick up my camera, and grab a few shots. I'm not concerned about silly issues such as 'spray and pray'. I do whetever it takes, with the tool I have, to capture a pleasing image. Birds, at least of the feathered variety, do not have a habit of cooperating whilst one stuffs around with camera settings.

One of the most popular images from the great and famous Ansel Adams is Moonrise over Hernandez. Below is a brief (plagiarised) description of the processing of that shot.

Once the photograph is taken, is the development and printing a mechanical process?

No, it is not mechanical. Although there is a procedure, there is much judgment involved on the part of the artist. Ansel said that the negative for Moonrise was difficult to print. He tried many methods using different chemicals and times and papers. With the negative in the enlarger, he increased the light hitting certain areas (burning-in) which made the sky blacker and the clouds less bright so the moon would stand out more. With all these artistic adjustments, Adams said "it is safe to say that no two prints are precisely the same."

Technical Aspects

Camera: 8 X 10 view camera
Lens: Cooke triple convertible lens.
Light meter: lost!
Film: Speed: ASA 64
Filter: Wratten No. 15 (G) filter
Exposure: 1 second at f/32.
Development: dilute D-23 and ten developer to water sequences.
Years later - refixed, washed the negative, and treated the lower section with a dilute solution of Kodak IN-5 intensifier.


Quote
But to my surprise, when I was a designer in an agency and had the oportunity to meet many pros and talk to them, many of them did not shoot more like crazy because of digital.
That's a point that always surprised me. I think that the pros have a better conscience of the equation income/outcome if I can say it that way.
They generally know what they do and don't shoot for shooting.
There are some niches like fashion, sport, where they shoot like crazy, but they where doing it in film age too.

I think the key point here is that 'they know what they do and don't shoot for shooting'. If I may add, they should also know what the client wants, even if they have to guess. That's the main purpose of their shooting. Presumably (correct me if I'm wrong), the professional photographer is working to a schedule. Time is money. A job has to be done. There's no time for experimenting with a whole lot of variations which may, or may not, produce a surprising and effective result.

As I've mentioned before, the amateur is in the privileged position of being his own client. He may not have taken any formal courses in Photography, but he will surely appreciate the learning 'feedback' opportunity of digital photography where EXIF information provides all the technical information required for the process of 'learning from one's mistakes'.

Quote
The problem IMO is that digital has created a new race of behaviour very similar to antibiotics: fear.

There's nothing to fear but fear itself

Quote
I'm frighten not having enough frames: digisolution.

No difference from the past. I made the decision not to travel into Tibet in 1964 because I had insufficient film frames to justify the risk..

Quote
I'm frighten of loosing my backup: digipill

People can be frightened of losing anything, whether Kodachrome slides, their house, their children, their job, whatever. Digitisation has not added to such fear. In fact, it's reduced it. Those in the business of preserving film images, whether still or moving, have an admirably effective solution with digitisation.

Quote
I'm frighten of not having enough DR: Nikon's injection

This was also a consideration with film. Generally, slide film had the worst DR. Negative color film was better, and B&W was the best of all. No need to be frightened. Just use the best film for the job. There's a tremendous advantage to DSLRs in respect of flexible ISO.

Quote
I'm frighten of not having enough compatibility: Canon's remedy

This is not a fear. It's merely a practical concern. I understand why Nikon and Canon do not manufacture lenses that are interchangeable between the two different brand of camera bodies. It's a pity, but there are third party lens manufacturers, such as Sigma, who try to fill this need.

Quote
I'm frighten to be hill: antibiotics.

One should never take antibiotics as a preventative. That's what immunisation is for.

You and Rob seem to be a couple of grumpy old men who are out of touch with modern developments. Get with it!   .


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Rob C

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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2010, 04:01:00 am »

"Can I answer this with a question? What sort of life is it to spend half one's time in a smelly, dark, room, breathing in chemical odors which will likely be harmful to one's health in the long run? I feel very privileged that I can sit in a nice environment in front of my computer. I can interupt my work at any time, listen to music, watch the telly during a long computation process (such as image stitching), or admire the view through the window of my studio as the wallabies hop by."

Do that as a pro and you'll be out on the street before the door hits your ass. The music, however, comes/came with the darkroom.
 Viva Radio Caroline!

"There's nothing to fear but fear itself"

Bullshit! That's just an old saying based on nothing except evasion of reality. But then, if you cuddle tigers, perhaps not - just a symptom of something else.

"People can be frightened of losing anything, whether Kodachrome slides, their house, their children, their job, whatever. Digitisation has not added to such fear. In fact, it's reduced it. Those in the business of preserving film images, whether still or moving, have an admirably effective solution with digitisation."

Really?

"This was also a consideration with film. Generally, slide film had the worst DR. Negative color film was better, and B&W was the best of all. No need to be frightened. Just use the best film for the job. There's a tremendous advantage to DSLRs in respect of flexible ISO."

I can't say I ever worried about DR in real life; I shot what I shot, knew what I was doing and seldom encountered negative surprises but often quite nice ones. My problems now are all digital-based, from friggin' websites that I try to put together that confound me at every step to image formats that I once had but can no longer source, even if I could afford the damn things in the first place.

"This is not a fear. It's merely a practical concern. I understand why Nikon and Canon do not manufacture lenses that are interchangeable between the two different brand of camera bodies. It's a pity, but there are third party lens manufacturers, such as Sigma, who try to fill this need."

Throw in Leica: I once wrote to them asking why I couldn't buy their lenses in Nikon mount - they answered saying that they, Leica, produced nice cameras... just like politicians, afraid to answer the question directly.

"You and Rob seem to be a couple of grumpy old men who are out of touch with modern developments. Get with it!"   .

Can't speak for Fred, but I fit the bill to the letter. It's called the passage of time and the understanding of the past. The more of it that passes the more of it there is to understand, the more representative the material from which to draw conclusions.  And the message, the conclusion is ever the same: you're generally effed before you start; success is the surprise, and it does come along now and again, just don't ever depend on it.

Regarding 'modern developments' yes, there are certainly some advantages but also drawbacks. As I've said before, I wouldn't have been attracted to a life as a photographer way back then had digital been the norm - simply too cold, clinical and devoid of the 'feel' that I always got from film and, yes, the darkroom, which was seldon smelly and hardly dangerous unless you drank from the dishes or licked your fingers or bit your nails, the latter best protected with clear varnish if you dared the odd looks you might get.

You know, it was hard work, but there was also something quite romantic about working right through the night to get some urgent work out to the client as the agency doors opened... those nights sure did seem better with the Mamas and the Papas doing their "...and the darkest hour is just before dawn." It was like the radio was your buddy, someone sharing the shadows and keeping you awake.  Shit, a whole way of life has gone down the drain.

Yeah, I sure do miss it all.

Grumps.

;-(

revaaron

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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2010, 04:32:31 pm »

I shoot film and digital. Digital is for work/print publications where I need to get shots for.
Film is for my personal life. Shooting 1 or 2 frames of a summer day. Unless it's a picture of my dogs, all my prints are from film shots.  I just wish adoramapix allowed files over 60MB to be uploaded.  350MP 16-bit NEFs FTW!

revaaron

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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2010, 04:53:59 pm »

Quote from: Rob C
"People can be frightened of losing anything, whether Kodachrome slides, their house, their children, their job, whatever. Digitisation has not added to such fear. In fact, it's reduced it. Those in the business of preserving film images, whether still or moving, have an admirably effective solution with digitisation."

Really?

When I first bought my drobo, I got access to the drobospace forums and read HORROR STORIES so I ran out and bought a back up for my back up (QNAP) which I'm really glad I did since VISTA once killed the drobo's MBR.  The thing is, Once you get a automated process in place, it does remove all the fear, but getting to that place is hard. I'm 95% of the way there after 1.5years since I started this backing up journey.  I need to go and sort my "to sort" folders and weed out dups/crap.

Ray

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« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2010, 09:21:19 pm »

Quote from: Rob C
"Can I answer this with a question? What sort of life is it to spend half one's time in a smelly, dark, room, breathing in chemical odors which will likely be harmful to one's health in the long run? I feel very privileged that I can sit in a nice environment in front of my computer. I can interupt my work at any time, listen to music, watch the telly during a long computation process (such as image stitching), or admire the view through the window of my studio as the wallabies hop by."

Do that as a pro and you'll be out on the street before the door hits your ass.

How do you know? You've never worked as a pro in the digital domain, have you? The point I'm making is: if I hear a cuckoo outside whilst I'm in the process of developing a print, or, if I hear a knock on the door from a friend dropping by, I can not interrupt what I'm doing to answer the door, or photograph the cuckoo, because the print will be spoiled.

However, if I'm working on the computer, whatever the task, backing up files on a very slow pocket-drive, stitching a hundred images, making careful adjustments of the 'curve' tool in Photoshop, I'm able to interrupt whatever I'm doing immediately and get back to it later without having spoiled anything or wasted my time. That's a huge advantage of the digital process, in my view.

Got it?  

Quote
Bullshit! That's just an old saying based on nothing except evasion of reality. But then, if you cuddle tigers, perhaps not - just a symptom of something else.

Nonsense! Imaginary fears rule the world. Nations often go to war because of imaginary threats. Does 'weapons of mass destruction' spring to mind?

Quote
Can't speak for Fred, but I fit the bill to the letter. It's called the passage of time and the understanding of the past. The more of it that passes the more of it there is to understand, the more representative the material from which to draw conclusions. And the message, the conclusion is ever the same: you're generally effed before you start; success is the surprise, and it does come along now and again, just don't ever depend on it.

Success can be defined in many ways. My definition is: finding the circumstances which allows one to do what is meaningful, challenging, interesting and pleasurable in life. One could argue that, also getting paid for doing such, makes one even more successful. But I would argue that having more money than one needs can be a burden and can actually detract from the enjoyment of life.

Quote
Regarding 'modern developments' yes, there are certainly some advantages but also drawbacks. As I've said before, I wouldn't have been attracted to a life as a photographer way back then had digital been the norm - simply too cold, clinical and devoid of the 'feel' that I always got from film and, yes, the darkroom, which was seldon smelly and hardly dangerous unless you drank from the dishes or licked your fingers or bit your nails, the latter best protected with clear varnish if you dared the odd looks you might get.

I understand. There's a tendency to get emotionally attached to imperfections. It's called tradition. "Oh! I so love that film grain. The bigger the better. It's so romantic. I hate those awfully smooth flesh tones of digital capture, that are so clinical and cold."

That's pathetic, Rob.  

Quote
You know, it was hard work, but there was also something quite romantic about working right through the night to get some urgent work out to the client as the agency doors opened... those nights sure did seem better with the Mamas and the Papas doing their "...and the darkest hour is just before dawn." It was like the radio was your buddy, someone sharing the shadows and keeping you awake. Shit, a whole way of life has gone down the drain.

Well, one can't argue with taste. If that's what was meaningful to you, excited you, enthralled you, who am I to argue. No hard feelings, I hope.  

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Rob C

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« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2010, 03:57:52 am »

Quote from: Ray
How do you know? You've never worked as a pro in the digital domain, have you? The point I'm making is: if I hear a cuckoo outside whilst I'm in the process of developing a print, or, if I hear a knock on the door from a friend dropping by, I can not interrupt what I'm doing to answer the door, or photograph the cuckoo, because the print will be spoiled.

However, if I'm working on the computer, whatever the task, backing up files on a very slow pocket-drive, stitching a hundred images, making careful adjustments of the 'curve' tool in Photoshop, I'm able to interrupt whatever I'm doing immediately and get back to it later without having spoiled anything or wasted my time. That's a huge advantage of the digital process, in my view.

Got it?  



Nonsense! Imaginary fears rule the world. Nations often go to war because of imaginary threats. Does 'weapons of mass destruction' spring to mind?



Success can be defined in many ways. My definition is: finding the circumstances which allows one to do what is meaningful, challenging, interesting and pleasurable in life. One could argue that, also getting paid for doing such, makes one even more successful. But I would argue that having more money than one needs can be a burden and can actually detract from the enjoyment of life.



I understand. There's a tendency to get emotionally attached to imperfections. It's called tradition. "Oh! I so love that film grain. The bigger the better. It's so romantic. I hate those awfully smooth flesh tones of digital capture, that are so clinical and cold."

That's pathetic, Rob.  



Well, one can't argue with taste. If that's what was meaningful to you, excited you, enthralled you, who am I to argue. No hard feelings, I hope.  




Well, you're right about the last bit: taste.

As for working in any form of pro darkroom - it's about working, not swanning around at the end of a whim; if I were an employer, nobody would be sitting around with nothing to do but listen to birds on the bloom! Not for more than a very short while, anyway. You have simply looked at your own way of 'working' and extrapolated to the pro; you are mistaken- there are no free rides or concerts. Not if the business is going to run, at least.

As for grain - pathetic? I can't believe you are being serious. It's an added dimension of emotion - a further tool in the film cannister.

Fear; WMDs? No, that wasn't fear, that was lies and political striving to creat 'legacy' for puppy St Tone - and who even remembers him, never mind any legacy - we've just had another election where the minorities have effed the stability of an entire country yet nobody even mentioned the holy Tone in all the propaganda time leading up to it. The joke is, the pundits all claim 'the people' were calling for a hung parliament: bullshit again, they were all hoping their party would win. Are these commentators so arrogant they think all of us fools? Yes.

Hard feelings - wishful memories more like it... or wasted opportunities.

;-)

Rob
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 03:58:47 am by Rob C »
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fredjeang

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How do you back up your massive files?
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2010, 04:11:29 am »

Ray,

It's always interesting to confrontate apparently opposite points.
Yours are certainly interesting and there is also many truths in your opinion.

Don't get me wrong: I don't miss film age.
My point is aimed towards a fact that we should be IMHO more aware: Digital brought incredible good things,
AND proportionally (to these advantages) an incredible amount of new Hassles.
There are just different.

Regarding the fear, digital is not the cause or the source, our society is based on fear. I see it everyday, but that would be a debate
for the Coffee corner IMO.

It's not digital that fails, it is the marketing arrownd, the companies politics and the overall mess of the products, distribution,
informations etc...

The backups should be something absolutly reliable, and easy to acheive. It is not!

A good camera design should be something easy to find in many brands. It is not!
Who design cameras and equipment? Marketing departments!

Standards should be something regulated. It is not! this industry is 100% free to do any kind of extravangant action.

etc...

Digital is NOT the problem.








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Ray

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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2010, 07:07:46 pm »

Quote from: Rob C
As for working in any form of pro darkroom - it's about working, not swanning around at the end of a whim; if I were an employer, nobody would be sitting around with nothing to do but listen to birds on the bloom! Not for more than a very short while, anyway. You have simply looked at your own way of 'working' and extrapolated to the pro; you are mistaken- there are no free rides or concerts. Not if the business is going to run, at least.

Rob,
Whatever the purpose of interrupting the processing of an image, whether to attend to an urgent business matter or some other work-related matter, it can be done more easily and more efficiently in the digital darkroom as opposed to the wet darkroom where prints need to be agitated in various solutions for specific amounts of time. That was my point. I'm talking about the individualistic, personal attention one might give to the development of an enlargement using dodge and burn techniques, and so on.

Quote
Fear; WMDs? No, that wasn't fear, that was lies and political striving....

The purpose of which was to create fear amongst the public in order to justify certain actions, ie. going to war.
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Ray

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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2010, 07:35:04 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
The backups should be something absolutly reliable, and easy to acheive. It is not!

A good camera design should be something easy to find in many brands. It is not!
Who design cameras and equipment? Marketing departments!

Standards should be something regulated. It is not! this industry is 100% free to do any kind of extravangant action.

etc...

Digital is NOT the problem.

Nothing is absolutely reliable. There's a Mean Time Between Failure which can be 100,000 hours or more, but that doesn't mean the device is guaranteed to work for such a period.

I've experienced two failures of back-up hard drives since I began using them. Both failures were my fault. The first failure, a LaCie 500GB Big Disk, overheated (I suspect). My airconditioner wasn't working; it was the middle of summer in Australia and very hot, and I frequently forgot to swith off the power to the hard drive after I'd finished using it. In retrospect, I should simply have directed a fan at the metal case of the drive.

The second drive was positioned on its edge on my cluttered desk (no room to lay it flat as it should have been). I accidentally kicked the power cord connected to the drive as I got up from my chair. The drive fell flat on its broad side, but still on the desk. It just tipped over, but it was running at the time and the fall was sufficient to cause me to lose all the data, about 400Gb.

The principle is clear. All data should reside on at least two hard drives, preferrably in different locations. All my RAW images also reside on CD and DVD. Blu-ray blanks are still too expensive.

I'm not worried   .
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2010, 03:14:58 am »

I don't get it Rob, the thread is about backup, with your film you have zero backup. One little fire or a nasty flooding and your lifes work is gone. With digital at least there is the possibility of backup for all that the original data can perhaps be lost more easily if not taken care of.
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Rob C

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« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2010, 04:08:10 am »

Quote from: Ben Rubinstein
I don't get it Rob, the thread is about backup, with your film you have zero backup. One little fire or a nasty flooding and your lifes work is gone. With digital at least there is the possibility of backup for all that the original data can perhaps be lost more easily if not taken care of.




Ben who needs a fire or a flood when we have ourselves?

When I left the UK to come and live here in Spain, I sold the negatives that I could to the old clients, destroyed the rest, and lost most of those which I had intended to keep for sentimental reasons (pride).

Now, with photo-art a relatively new phenomenon almost unheard of in the late 70s (again, in the UK which is where my experience lay), I would have sold nothing.

I had so many fashion pictures that would now stand on their own as possible art material - even two fully black/white calendar productions -and it is all gone, for ever lost. Digital wouldn't have helped there either. In fact, an (negative, from today's persepective) advantage would have been that I could have destroyed CDs more quickly than the hours it took to shred negatives!

Rob C

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« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2010, 05:39:40 pm »

Hi Rob,

Why would you shred your negatives? Where you having some kind of manic episode?

Cheers

Simon
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Rob C

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« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2010, 04:14:13 am »

Quote from: HarperPhotos
Hi Rob,

Why would you shred your negatives? Where you having some kind of manic episode?

Cheers

Simon




My manic episodes are not episodes: they are a way of life.

The dull reality regarding the negatives was that I was moving country, from Scotland to Spain. My early self-employed photo life was mainly b/w prints as final product, but later on, colour transparency became what I did 100% because I had moved from doing normal shoots to calendars and stock only. I can't say it was planned, more that the markets changed and I had to go with it or die, jusy as it is today with you guys still working.

I never imagined I would print or want to print anything again; I sold off what original clients would buy as part of their company 'history' and dumped the rest in order to relieve myself of the space and responsibility problem that it represented. The crucial part of it was that, as far as I knew, there was no photo art market in existence, even in my imagination. The closest to that idea was stock, where you tried to sell what you wanted to shoot, which turned out to be a dying idea too, since the agencies had other plans and agendas.

As I think I mentioned, there was a couple of b/w calendar sets that I was really proud of and liked and I thought I had saved them. But I have either lost them or didn't save them - that's almost thirty years since the move - who can remember? I do have two or three pages from one of those cals, but I had them encapsulated in those plastic films and that's as far as I can go with them now. Except to realise how grainy you could get 35mm film to look if you so chose. The one thing I did save was my set of Bardot negs from her film Three Weeks in September. Thank God for that.

Ciao - Rob C

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« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2010, 11:06:27 am »

funny, I'm doing the exact opposite and preserving all those films from my past.
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