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Author Topic: 1Ds MKII vs scanned 4x5  (Read 11646 times)

Quentin

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1Ds MKII vs scanned 4x5
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2004, 01:30:09 pm »

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I'm going to step a bit further out on a limb here and claim it will take over 50 Megapixels in a MF sensor to approach scanned LF image quality.  And even then I remain dubious over that being a true replacement for scanned 4x5.  It may take 80-100MP before that really happens.
Jack,

It's a limb I am already out on, as you'll recall my somewhat unscientific conclusions in another thread ( see http://www.luminous-landscape.com/cgi-bin....2;st=60 ) were that we'd need around 75mp in a medium format sensor to match scanned LF.

Quentin
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RobertJ

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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2004, 02:26:37 am »

Since it's pretty obvious that 4x5 film can beat a 1ds2 file, how would 6x7 medium format film compare?  I'm curious, since I don't have the tools to do any testing.  I realize Michael has done his "1ds is better than medium format film" article, but I thought that was only for prints up to 13x19, and then with the 1ds2, I believe he said it's equal to MF up to 16x20 max.  Is this correct?

T-1000
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didger

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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2004, 11:59:02 am »

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comparing the 1DS Mark II to large format seems to me that the 1DS MII is a pretty good camera
I can compare a mouse to an elephant.  At least they're both grey.  So what?  No one has yet denied that 1ds2 is a "pretty good camera".  In fact that's the weakest praise I've heard yet, for either 1ds or 1ds2.  The issue here is whether 1ds2 is significantly sharper than 1ds, and this is strictly opinions so far.  I'd like to see some direct comparison pictures in addition to the only two I've seen so far and which showed as good as no difference.
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2004, 04:52:04 pm »

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 A Canon 50mm compact macro is not exactly garbage even at f22.  
But unfortunately for yoru theory, this is NOT a correct assumption...  

The effect of diffraction impairs image quality significantly beginning at about f11 and rapidly getting worse from there.  You can easily see this in a direct f-stop comparison -- and it is noticable in a 1Ds to some degree, and an even greater degree in the 1DsII.  

Cheers,
Jack
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Graham Welland

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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2004, 12:02:27 am »

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Would it be stupid of me to buy a 6x7 medium format camera that doesn't support digital backs, since I most likely can't afford these upcoming digital backs/P25's?  Or maybe a 4x5?  

My current setup would be a high end DSLR plus some sort of film camera: 6x7 or large format.  I'm not sure...

T-1000
Well, only you can decide on this one as it isn't an issue of being a stupid decision or not but a personal one.

If you have a high end DSLR then you need to consider how often you will shoot film at all. If you do shoot film then you'll want it to be worth the effort and so I'd suggest that the larger the format (or panoramic) the better to enjoy the results and the process.

4x5 is significantly different to MF shooting but that may be exactly what you want. 6x7 such from Mamiya 7 are beautiful. 6x12 or 6x17 formats are popular and these have excellent glass.

Only you can know whether this makes sense for you. The problem with digital is that it is very easy to consign all of your analog gear to the camera bag where it stays.

As regards choosing a MF system that doesn't support digital in the future - it's a trade off between cost of system change in the future vs. cost today. There's a lot of stuff out there that is still excellent optically but a dead end if you want to reuse it for digital. If you adopt a film system it would probably make sense to give yourself the option of going digital in the future if you can.
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Graham

collum

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1Ds MKII vs scanned 4x5
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2004, 04:04:59 pm »

i have in the past, and am getting ready to start a project with it now (have an 8x10 Sinar P).

       jim
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Ray

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« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2004, 08:30:45 pm »

Actually, knowing how soft 35mm images can be at f22, I'm surprised that the Akiss images showed any difference at all. The fact that they did, implies that there might be a worthwhile difference at f8, provided that 20 sec exposure did not impact on his results.
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2004, 10:14:51 am »

Gwelland:

thanks for the math...  Again, excuse my pea-brain, but doesn't an 8-bit TIFF require 3 bits per pixel, one for the red channel, a second for the green and a third for the blue?  

If so, wouldn't this make the ~500MP image roughly 1.5 GIGA-bytes in size and the 16-bit version 3 Gig?

Talk about storage and processing issues!

 
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didger

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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2004, 01:13:52 pm »

As you say, no surprises.  I'd be interested in seeing this sort of comparison for 1ds and 1dsII.
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Quentin

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« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2004, 06:09:42 am »

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I expect however Bernard is correct and A3 is about it -- that happens to be roughly where the native 1DsII file will print at 300PPI...

By contrast, the native 4x5 scan will print almost to full A1 at 300PPI...

Any way you cut it, there is simply a lot more detail in the scan.
Fair enough Jack.  I have found I can go beyond A3 up to A2 or sometimes bigger if I take the same care with my Kodak 14nx shots as I would wth my large format shots.  To some extent this is dependent upon the subject matter.  Of course LF is superior in terms of absolute detail on the really big stuff, but I am only too glad to accept some compromise for the convenience and pleasure of digital. Digital pixels are superior to scanned film pixels, but with LF, there is so much data, it will win out despite this.

My drum scanner has not turned in anger for some time now  ::

Quentin
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Quentin

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« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2004, 05:11:31 pm »

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Plus I think the 14n/c has an advantage in the detail department over the Canon due to the AA filter.  A sharper initial file will uprez better, so you can possibly eek the next paper size in many situations.
This seems to be confirmed by a Kodak shooter on the dpreview Kodak forum (a friendly place in dpreview terms) who has just taken delivery of a 1Ds II and done a quick comparison at base ISO.  

Quentin
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Dan Wells

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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2004, 09:04:41 pm »

I just did a slightly different test, and was surprised how quickly the difference became apparent. I tested 4x5 vs. a 6 mp DSLR (Nikon D70), which was obviously going to be a big difference at huge sizes. My test was a LOT less scientific, but was perhaps representative of how people really use the cameras. I did not use the same shot, but picked one from my first day with 4x5 (which I'm just learning) and one from my extensive file of D70 images that didn't show any of the downsides of digital (base ISO, no huge dynamic range, etc...) I scanned the 4x5 Velvia on an older Epson Perfection 3200, at only 1600 dpi (I know that's a 3200x6400 dpi scanner, but, as has been discussed here before, it can't really capture its full resolution).
     I did two print tests, and judged on the results from the prints, not from huge pixel blowups (the pixel blowup would be NO surprise-4x5 just beat a 1Ds II, a D70 isn't going to catch it.) First was a 16x20 print from 4x5 against a (roughly) 14x20 print from the D70. I matched the 20 inch dimension and let the width fall where it may. These prints were produced on an HP DesignJet 130. The D70 print looks OK viewed alone, but it is best not to view it with a print from 4x5 in the same room! The detail in the 16x20 from 4x5 was simply amazing...I was not surprised, except, perhaps, by the magnitude of the difference.
     After the 16x20 result was so conclusive (I consider the D70 to be"falling apart" at 16x20), I decided to see how small I could go and still see a difference. 8x10 (and only 6.7whatever in width on the D70) should be closer? Time to fire up the Photosmart 8450-a very modern, high resolution, wide color gamut small printer (the only printer thus far to have a native color space of Adobe RGB). At 8x10, the D70 is a LOT more acceptable than at 16x20. However, the 4x5 is still easy to pick out-the 8450's pulling detail from the scan that just is not there in the digital file. The 8450 is so high resolution that most of the detail from the 16x20 is still there-you just have to look closely. There is a depth to the 4x5 print that is simply not present in the digital, even at a small size. I wonder if it is better dynamic range (although the 4x5 was Velvia and the digital shot was chosen not to push the limits), just the increased resolution, or what?
     I WAS surprised to have a visible difference as far down as 8x10! I thought that a good DSLR operated within its limits was essentially perfect at a print size that small (I thought that the only reason to use the view camera for prints that small was for the movements). It IS very good, but I can pick out the view camera every time even at 8x10...
     The view camera in this comparison was a pretty simple rig-a Wista DX wooden 4x5 field camera with a multicoated (but fairly low-end) Caltar (Rodenstock) 150 mm f5.6 lens. Film was a Velvia quickload in a Polaroid 545 holder (supposedly not the sharpest way of doing things, but plenty to beat digital).

                                                            -dan
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Graham Welland

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« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2004, 01:30:14 am »

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my conclusion. The fact is that 4x5 scanned on EVEN an Epson 2450 can still produce more true image data than my 16mp digital back with prime Mamiya glass. It shows up in the prints too. Obviously a better scan would show this even more.

Now this isn't meant to be a surprising discovery - I've known that all along (MF film too from my film scanner). In the spirit of 'can xyz mk II beat 4x5 film' I figured that someone might be interested in a real world like for like example and make up their own mind.

The problem I run into with film is that I end up with too much information and I need a Cray XMP machine to run Photoshop. :cool:

Since I don't have to do this stuff for the day job, I actually enjoy shooting both film and digital. Both produce outstanding image quality, but one is more 'outstanding' than the other in qualitative terms if not usability and convenience. Don't worry, I'm not ditching the digital equipment any time soon ......
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Quentin

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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2004, 08:34:14 am »

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Plus I think the 14n/c has an advantage in the detail department over the Canon due to the AA filter.  A sharper initial file will uprez better, so you can possibly eek the next paper size in many situations.
Do I understand you to mean that the Kodak even outperforms the 1Ds Mark 2 in terms of detail?  I realize that it will be lopsidedly the other way in high-ISO performance, autofocus speed, etc.....
That was the conclusion of the shooter I referred to who owns a Kodak and recently purchased a 1Ds II.  Its not my conclusion because I neither own, nor have any intention of buying, any Canon kit.  However, it is not particularly surprising given there is relatively little difference in pixel counts, and the Canon uses an AA filter, whereas the Kodak does not.

Your mileage may vary.

Quentin
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2004, 12:35:44 pm »

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Plus I think the 14n/c has an advantage in the detail department over the Canon due to the AA filter.  A sharper initial file will uprez better, so you can possibly eek the next paper size in many situations.
Do I understand you to mean that the Kodak even outperforms the 1Ds Mark 2 in terms of detail?  I realize that it will be lopsidedly the other way in high-ISO performance, autofocus speed, etc.....
I think it may in certain situations, but not by a significant margin.  After all, 16MP is not that many more than 14  

However, as pointed out, there are significant tradeoffs to not having an AA filter...  In the end, I think the ideal scenario is an AA filter that is not too strong, but just enough to help the Bayer. I think the 1Ds was near-perfect in this balance, though I am not yet sure where the 1DsII falls.
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Edward

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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2004, 11:29:15 am »

> 4x5 at 2400 is pretty unmanageable even on my dual G5 with 4.5GB ram. The 4x5 ends up as a 4GB 16bit PS file which is ok once it's loaded but takes a while to load/save. It's definitely overkill

Scanning at higher resolution is great to get the detail, but then you can downsample to much lower resolution and still have the detail.  The averaging you get will supress the grain artifacts and make a much better print than working with the scanning resolution.
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2004, 09:51:03 pm »

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I'm going to step a bit further out on a limb here and claim it will take over 50 Megapixels in a MF sensor to approach scanned LF image quality.  And even then I remain dubious over that being a true replacement for scanned 4x5.  It may take 80-100MP before that really happens.
Jack,

It's a limb I am already out on, as you'll recall my somewhat unscientific conclusions in another thread ( see http://www.luminous-landscape.com/cgi-bin....2;st=60 ) were that we'd need around 75mp in a medium format sensor to match scanned LF.

Quentin
Quentin:  You and I are certainly on the same wavelength  :D
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Image Northwest

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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2004, 11:40:01 am »

The fact that folks are now comparing the 1DS Mark II to large format seems to me that the 1DS MII is a pretty good camera, however one looks at it.

Bruce
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didger

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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2004, 05:39:57 pm »

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impairs image quality significantly beginning at about f11
I researched all that pretty thoroughly some months ago and the figure I recall was f16 for 50mm or so lenses, but in any case without direct comparison shots at optimal aperture it's all speculation and extrapolation as to just how much sharper 1ds2 is for the best lenses at optimal aperture.  The article you pointed out says that the improvement is far less than the improvement from 8 Mpixels to 11, but just how much less?  I wanna see pictures, test grids, street signs, brick walls, landscapes with a lot of detail.  I don't expect to see dramatic differences even for the very best lenses at optimal aperture and the less optimal the lenses or apertures get the less difference you'd see, but the processing and storage overhead is 50% more even if you're shooting with a lens/aperture that gives you no real improvement in resolution.  I could be shown otherwise, but not "talked" otherwise.
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didger

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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2004, 09:08:22 pm »

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The fact that they did, implies that there might be a worthwhile difference at f8
Well, I'm still hoping for some crops to be posted, like what Akiss did, but shot at f8 and maybe also a brick wall, detailed leafy vegetation, whatever is most challenging and convincing.  

Even if there's a worthwhile difference at f8 that's pretty much totally missing at f22, it's a little discouraging because you can't do all your shooting with world class lenses at f8.  I mostly shoot wide to very wide and even the best lucky cherry picked zoom samples or Zeiss primes fall short of good 50mm primes.  It all means that in my case I'd be doing a lot of shots without getting anywhere near the maximum resolution potential of a 1ds2, whatever that absolute best resolution potential with a world class lens at f8 may be.  I suspect my next upgrade will be something like a 22 Mpixel MF camera.  That being way better than MF color film, I'll probably be able to live with that without further upgrade lust because I'm sure very high density MF sensors will also require shooting with the very best lenses at exactly the optimal aperture.  Doesn't sound attractive to me.
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