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Author Topic: Arca-Swiss Rm3d & Tilt  (Read 3786 times)

pcox

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Arca-Swiss Rm3d & Tilt
« on: April 25, 2010, 02:52:56 am »

Hi folks -
When at the factory, I elected to buy the Rm3d without any viewing aids for the ground glass (as I figured I'd be using the viewfinder for composing and rangefinder for focus). This has been working pretty well so far, but the other evening I thought I'd use tilt for the Scheimpflug effect. That's a different story, and not something you can just use a rangefinder for.

Other Rm3d owners - how are you using tilt in your workflow? I assume the only way to do it is to examine the ground glass. I've already found how sloppy that can be for regular focusing, so how accurate do you find it for figuring out the appropriate tilt movement and focus adjustment?

Cheers,
Peter
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John Eaton

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Arca-Swiss Rm3d & Tilt
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 10:43:35 pm »

Quote from: pcox
Hi folks -
When at the factory, I elected to buy the Rm3d without any viewing aids for the ground glass (as I figured I'd be using the viewfinder for composing and rangefinder for focus). This has been working pretty well so far, but the other evening I thought I'd use tilt for the Scheimpflug effect. That's a different story, and not something you can just use a rangefinder for.

Other Rm3d owners - how are you using tilt in your workflow? I assume the only way to do it is to examine the ground glass. I've already found how sloppy that can be for regular focusing, so how accurate do you find it for figuring out the appropriate tilt movement and focus adjustment?

Cheers,
Peter

Peter

My understanding is that if you're taking landscapes than 1 degree is usually fine, it's only if you've got a subject very close (3 feet or less) that it becomes difficult -- I found the tables in the attached article useful.

Good luck, John.

[attachment=21676:Focusing...ift_lens.pdf]

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pcox

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Arca-Swiss Rm3d & Tilt
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2010, 12:54:59 am »

John -
I hadn't come across those before. I always used to do the tilt, refocus, retilt, refocus method looking at the ground glass on my 4x5 system. I'll play with the tables listed and my 24mm XL and see how they match up. Of course, that still leaves the problem of focusing on the ground glass - I can't imagine you can treat the distance to the object plane as if it were a normal distance as per Arca-Swiss' tables.

Cheers,
Peter

Quote from: John Eaton
Peter

My understanding is that if you're taking landscapes than 1 degree is usually fine, it's only if you've got a subject very close (3 feet or less) that it becomes difficult -- I found the tables in the attached article useful.

Good luck, John.

[attachment=21676:Focusing...ift_lens.pdf]
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Rod.Klukas

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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2010, 12:03:17 pm »

To all,
the tilt mechanism on the RM3d is an 'Orbix' design.  It is a bit more difficult to operate than on a 4x5 due to the short distance top to bottom of our sensors/ground glass.  Also as the focus mechanism on the camera is so fine, with wide angles, it is difficult see the object go in and out of focus.
It may be required less with 20 something or 35mm lenses anyway.

A low powered focus aid of 4-5x is best.  The operation of 'Orbix' is as base tilt.  Focus far-Tilt near.  If no rise has been employed it is usually a one iteration action.  If rise has been used then it will be a couple or 3, still far better than normal base or axis tilt cameras.
As we are speaking of planes you can use the far ends of the ground glass to focus and or tilt which may yield a greater difference between near and far
and make it easier to see what is happening when you tilt, even though your sensor/film size is smaller than the full 6x9.
David Summerhayes' article is excellent for  the lenses from a mathematical standpoint but no tilt scale on the Arca makes it difficult to use on it. However
great for DSLR users with the T/S lenses.
Rod
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Rod Klukas
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schaubild

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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 01:00:43 pm »

Quote from: [email]Rod.Klukas@cox.net[/email]
.....
the tilt mechanism on the RM3d is an 'Orbix' design. .....

Maybe it would be a good idea to check that statement with Arca. A tilt in the optical axis is offered by other manufacturers too (Alpa, Cambo, Linhof....) and is not what Orbix stands for.

A side remark: something like the Orbix with a goniometric type gear on the camera standards is built by Sinar since more than 25 years for their P cameras. The same concept with the tilt axis in the image/lens plane. So not much innovation there.

 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 01:25:31 pm by schaubild »
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RodK

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Arca-Swiss Rm3d & Tilt
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 12:54:52 pm »

Quote from: schaubild
Maybe it would be a good idea to check that statement with Arca. A tilt in the optical axis is offered by other manufacturers too (Alpa, Cambo, Linhof....) and is not what Orbix stands for.

A side remark: something like the Orbix with a goniometric type gear on the camera standards is built by Sinar since more than 25 years for their P cameras. The same concept with the tilt axis in the image/lens plane. So not much innovation there.

 
Mr Schaubild,
You are correct that the tilt is not truly 'Orbix'.  I misspoke although it is very close to being of the Orbix type, the axis of rotation being very near the nodal point of the lenses. It is an axis tilt, built into the body, which is in keeping with the concept of the RM3d.  With this design and concept, tilt can be used with any lens 23mm-210mm.  Alpa and Cambo, etc, can only offer tilt on certain retro-focus lens designs with their add-on devices.
As to the remark about Sinar and yaw free tilt, View Camera designs are very much about where the axes being placed.  Older view cameras used to place the swing at the bottom and the tilt above.  These cameras are not Yaw Free.  By placing the tilt below the swing you get a yaw free design.   Although most View Cameras have both tilt and swing, they do not perform similar or as efficiently at all.
The Sinar P you mentioned does have assymmetric tilt above the abse tilt and below the swing.  P's are bi-axial yaw free and the tilt/swing is assymmetric.
Arca-Swiss cameras with Orbix tilt in the format frame are however, three axes yaw free, and purely symmetrical for tilt and swing.(This was first introduced in 1984 by Arca-Swiss). This a completely different and patented concept of how movement axes and tilts are arranged and how they perform.
We have had some huge steps forward to come from non yaw free cameras to bi-axial yaw free cameras and now to tri-axial yaw free cameras from Arca-Swiss!
It is not about whether a camera offers tilt and swing, but where these movements are placed and in which order they are used.
Hope this clarifies.
Thanks,
Rod
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asf

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Arca-Swiss Rm3d & Tilt
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 04:18:34 pm »

Quote from: RodK
The Sinar P you mentioned does have assymmetric tilt above the abse tilt and below the swing.  P's are bi-axial yaw free and the tilt/swing is assymmetric.
Arca-Swiss cameras with Orbix tilt in the format frame are however, three axes yaw free, and purely symmetrical for tilt and swing.(This was first introduced in 1984 by Arca-Swiss). This a completely different and patented concept of how movement axes and tilts are arranged and how they perform.

Isn't this only true if there is no front rise employed?

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RodK

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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 11:45:25 am »

Quote from: asf
Isn't this only true if there is no front rise employed?
The F-line and M-line are always Tri-axial.  The M-line because it tilts at the bottom never has a
displacement requiring correction.  However the F-line cameras having their rise in the front frame,
 do require focus correction when rise is employed as the lens moves away from the image plane.
 The Camera lens is still on plane though, so still Tri-axially correct.
The R Line camera tilt, while not perfectly having Orbix tilt, is operated as is axis  tilt.
Focus near and tilt far if using the ground glass.  With a digital back and the instant feedback it provides,
a table could be created for each of an owners lenses by experimentation.  Once created this would
tell the photographer the degree of tilt required to reach, say infinity, for each lens, to maximize depth of field.
As there is a slight variation, specimen to specimen, in lenses, this testing would be best anyway for
sharpest performance and greatest depth of field.  Longer lenses would perhaps require this more than
the shorter wide angle lenses.  Once created, and given the helical rings precise focus settings for distance,  
the use of the ground glass on the R camera for focusing, becomes far less of a need.  The ground glass,
of course, is till the best option for precise composition.
Rod
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