MFDB Factory Store & manufacturer presence

Yes, I see the added value and would use this

36 (57.1%)

No, I don't see the need and would prefer using dealers only.

27 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 57

[Joe Behar]

Editorial clients like Conde Nastey, Hearst, hachette filipacchi, and commercial clients like Verizon paid for the rentals.  I took one out for a weekend rental from Calumet because I wanted to shoot Phase, and they cut me a deal, so it was $250.  I also know, or knew, lots of techs at Splashlight and Pier 59.  Later Fast Ashley's/IC Color.  Conde had a deal with Fotocare, so I only rented Leaf for a long time.

So all in all I probably had one in hand for 30 or so days before buying my own.

TMARK,

Thanks for the honest reply.

Yes, a lot of clients will pay for rentals of equipment, but a lot of pros would find that testing a never before used system on a job is "somewhat stressful"

The other thing that comes to mind is that not everyone that is interested in a MFDB is a full time working pro, and as such does not have the luxury of digital techs or clients that pay for rentals.

30 days at $250 a day kinda eats into whatever discount you might get from a factory direct purchase, no?

[TMARK]

I think that for me and tech savvy people with time, and friends in the industry, a dealer is of limited utility. If I were in Wisconsin and was a hobbiest, I'd think a dealer would be invaluable. I would find a factory store useful. Others probably need a dealer.

For some people the dealer is an impediment because it's too much of a process, too time consuming. Other pros who use backs for special applications, like on a view camera with digital shutters, long exposure work, whatever, probably need a dealer. The systems have issues interacting with each other or require special mounting, and in those cases dealers can provide a solution. But let's face it, most people I know are people photogs, and we want nothing more than what a d3x can give us, but with the look of MF optics and the larger chip.  So fashion portrait guys and gals could just order from B&H and send it to a service facility if anything goes wrong.  

TMARK,

Thanks for the honest reply.

Yes, a lot of clients will pay for rentals of equipment, but a lot of pros would find that testing a never before used system on a job is "somewhat stressful"

The other thing that comes to mind is that not everyone that is interested in a MFDB is a full time working pro, and as such does not have the luxury of digital techs or clients that pay for rentals.

30 days at $250 a day kinda eats into whatever discount you might get from a factory direct purchase, no?

[Steve Hendrix]

I think that for me and tech savvy people with time, and friends in the industry, a dealer is of limited utility. If I were in Wisconsin and was a hobbiest, I'd think a dealer would be invaluable. I would find a factory store useful. Others probably need a dealer.

For some people the dealer is an impediment because it's too much of a process, too time consuming. Other pros who use backs for special applications, like on a view camera with digital shutters, long exposure work, whatever, probably need a dealer. The systems have issues interacting with each other or require special mounting, and in those cases dealers can provide a solution. But let's face it, most people I know are people photogs, and we want nothing more than what a d3x can give us, but with the look of MF optics and the larger chip.  So fashion portrait guys and gals could just order from B&H and send it to a service facility if anything goes wrong.

How are you saying that buying from a dealer is too time consuming? Do you mean compared to say, B&H? Do you anticipate that ordering from a manufacturer would be an online-based purchase?

If someone calls me and says Steve - I know you know these products backwards and forwards, how they compare, down to the most persnickety details, but I don't have time for such discussion, I know exactly what I want and I will hold only myself responsible for buying it so here's my credit card.

Ok, we can do that.

Or do you absolutely need the capability to just go to the site, check the box next to P65+, add to cart and check out? We are adding e-commerce to our site as we speak (lenses, accessories, etc). We are hesitant to put such a large and complex solution into our e-commerce store. Should we? Is this what you see as clearing the impediments and speeding up the process of buying from a dealer?



Steve Hendrix

[Ajoy Roy]

I have long wondered why the online presence of MFDB manufacturers is rather passive where it is also an excellent place for real communication and interaction with their customers. For a lot of things I get redirected to a dealer. In most cases I find this an extra layer that has no real value to me and I wish I had an alternative. Nowadays some manufacturers actually communicate really well with their clients (us photographers) at various levels but it seems very difficult for them to go all the way.

I want to be able to buy directly from the factory. Equipment for a sharp price without dealer support but only factory warranty. Do mind that buying from this factory shop means you have NO dealer support and you will be billed whenever you do require help or assistance from a dealer.

I also want to go to a website, log in, request a RMA for a piece of equipment. Send it to the manufacturer, get a price quote, get it fixed and returned.

I am not advocating to get rid of the dealer but to have an alternative next to the dealer system.

I wonder how many people are interested in having an alternative like this? Or not.

I agree that there should be an alternate channel. In India we have just one dealer for Hasselblad and it is 1400km away from Delhi. The dealer just does not stock equipment as all equipment is imported against orders. In case of repairs, including warranty, all that the dealer does is act as a postman collecting his share in the process. So why should I support such a dealer? I might as well as get the equipment I want through B&H (or even Hasselblad Dealer in US). It may seem strange but after shipment from US and paying customs, practically all cameras cost 25% or less than purchasing it locally. Even Nikon charges a premium of 60% over US prices (after factoring customs of 25% that is 35% profit).

[pixjohn]

Or do you absolutely need the capability to just go to the site, check the box next to P65+, add to cart and check out? We are adding e-commerce to our site as we speak (lenses, accessories, etc). We are hesitant to put such a large and complex solution into our e-commerce store. Should we? Is this what you see as clearing the impediments and speeding up the process of buying from a dealer?



Steve Hendrix

Yes, if you don't list a ridiculous list price! I have had a few offer for pricing. Buying a back reminds me of buying a car.

[Dustbak]

Yes, if you don't list a ridiculous list price! I have had a few offer for pricing. Buying a back reminds me of buying a car.

Exactly. Buying online should be an easy process and the buyer should be rewarded with a better price for not allocating much time of the seller instead of being treated like an easy prey for extra margin.

It is amazing how many dealers have prices on their sites that you know are ridiculous, as soon as you call you get better quotes. The whole notion of being presented initially with a price that is way too high combined with the lack of interest of afterward they got your money is why I, and apparently with over 60%  we are in a majority, would really like to see an alternative. For the repair and servicing their is even a 75% majority.

[Kevin Raber]

Hello . .
Another way to try out a back is at a PODAS Phase One Digital Artiste Series workshops. You can check them out at www.phaseone.com/PODAS. You get a P65+ back, several instructors, great locations and all your meals and ground transportation is included. The last workshop convinced more than half the attendees to purchase a Phase One camera system.

Also, we believe the dealer plays a very important role is selling a medium format system. Phase One has always had dealers and works very closely with all of them. A dealer can bring some amazing expertise to the table. In addition they usually sell more than just Phase One products and they can help you with third party peripherals. Some dealers even have priority support where you can call anytime.  In the long run, the relationship you will build with a dealer will be invaluable.

Kevin Raber
Phase One

[CBarrett]

Hello . .
Another way to try out a back is at a PODAS Phase One Digital Artiste Series workshops. You can check them out at www.phaseone.com/PODAS. You get a P65+ back, several instructors, great locations and all your meals and ground transportation is included. The last workshop convinced more than half the attendees to purchase a Phase One camera system.

Also, we believe the dealer plays a very important role is selling a medium format system. Phase One has always had dealers and works very closely with all of them. A dealer can bring some amazing expertise to the table. In addition they usually sell more than just Phase One products and they can help you with third party peripherals. Some dealers even have priority support where you can call anytime.  In the long run, the relationship you will build with a dealer will be invaluable.

Kevin Raber
Phase One

I can second that.  I met Kevin at ProGear here in Chicago who have gone above and beyond to make sure I am equipped for every possibility.  I also worked closely with Cap Int in Atlanta when transitioning my previous employer to digital and can tell you that Dave, Doug and the gang are top notch as well.  Don't undervalue your dealer relationship.  This is not gear that you want to mail order and be left hanging when you have any problems.

-CB

[TMARK]

Steve,

What I meant by time consuming is that you have to call every dealer in the country to find a real price, and, depending on the dealer, it can be very frustrating, time consuming, waiting for replies, then you get replies and quotes for insane prices.  PPR and CI were fantastic, by the way, but I was still talking to Fotocare, Calumet, Sammy's, and some others and the experience was far from easy.  The prices for the same backs varied drasticaly from dealer to dealer.  I boughyt from CI, as the price was good and the everyone I dealt with was fantastic.  But in all, the process was more opaque and difficult than buying a car.  Seriously, I bought a car for the wife from Carmax last night.  Saw the car online, called about it, test drove it, wrote a check.  Its out front, with tags on it, insured.  Buying the car was as TRANSPARENT as buying a Mac.  The MFD experience should be similar.

The list prices and the secret handshake you need to get a low price makes just handing you the Amex unrealistic.  I would suggest a Carmax model, where there is a dealer, the prices are fair, the process is transparent.  There could be a charge for life long tech support, like an extended warranty but for tech help.

And yes, the B&H model would work for me, but not for others.

I think the fundamental problem dealers have is that the old school camera dealer business model is dead, and cameras now follow the tech business model.  

T

How are you saying that buying from a dealer is too time consuming? Do you mean compared to say, B&H? Do you anticipate that ordering from a manufacturer would be an online-based purchase?

If someone calls me and says Steve - I know you know these products backwards and forwards, how they compare, down to the most persnickety details, but I don't have time for such discussion, I know exactly what I want and I will hold only myself responsible for buying it so here's my credit card.

Ok, we can do that.

Or do you absolutely need the capability to just go to the site, check the box next to P65+, add to cart and check out? We are adding e-commerce to our site as we speak (lenses, accessories, etc). We are hesitant to put such a large and complex solution into our e-commerce store. Should we? Is this what you see as clearing the impediments and speeding up the process of buying from a dealer?



Steve Hendrix

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

What I meant by time consuming is that you have to call every dealer in the country to find a real price, and, depending on the dealer, it can be very frustrating, time consuming, waiting for replies, then you get replies and quotes for insane prices.  PPR and CI were fantastic, by the way, but I was still talking to Fotocare, Calumet, Sammy's, and some others and the experience was far from easy.  The prices for the same backs varied drasticaly from dealer to dealer.  I boughyt from CI, as the price was good and the everyone I dealt with was fantastic.  But in all, the process was more opaque and difficult than buying a car.  Seriously, I bought a car for the wife from Carmax last night.  Saw the car online, called about it, test drove it, wrote a check.  Its out front, with tags on it, insured.  Buying the car was as TRANSPARENT as buying a Mac.  The MFD experience should be similar.

The list prices and the secret handshake you need to get a low price makes just handing you the Amex unrealistic.  I would suggest a Carmax model, where there is a dealer, the prices are fair, the process is transparent.  There could be a charge for life long tech support, like an extended warranty but for tech help.

And yes, the B&H model would work for me, but not for others.

I think the fundamental problem dealers have is that the old school camera dealer business model is dead, and cameras now follow the tech business model.  

T

Ok, I have the solution. Everyone buy from us.

We may have to raise prices (just a bit) to handle the extra volume. But you'll have the experience you want. I'm almost completely serious.


Steve Hendrix

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

What I meant by time consuming is that you have to call every dealer in the country to find a real price, and, depending on the dealer, it can be very frustrating, time consuming, waiting for replies, then you get replies and quotes for insane prices.  PPR and CI were fantastic, by the way, but I was still talking to Fotocare, Calumet, Sammy's, and some others and the experience was far from easy.  The prices for the same backs varied drasticaly from dealer to dealer.  I boughyt from CI, as the price was good and the everyone I dealt with was fantastic.  But in all, the process was more opaque and difficult than buying a car.  Seriously, I bought a car for the wife from Carmax last night.  Saw the car online, called about it, test drove it, wrote a check.  Its out front, with tags on it, insured.  Buying the car was as TRANSPARENT as buying a Mac.  The MFD experience should be similar.

The list prices and the secret handshake you need to get a low price makes just handing you the Amex unrealistic.  I would suggest a Carmax model, where there is a dealer, the prices are fair, the process is transparent.  There could be a charge for life long tech support, like an extended warranty but for tech help.

And yes, the B&H model would work for me, but not for others.

I think the fundamental problem dealers have is that the old school camera dealer business model is dead, and cameras now follow the tech business model.  

T

I wouldn't say it is dead. I would say it needs modification and it is difficult to maintain the positive things about the "old school camera dealer" model while evolving the process for speed, ease of use for modern time buying.

We're looking into this - we now do have the start of an e-commerce site. We will see how it goes. We're not sure if we would ever put digital backs into an "add to cart" situation, but we're hearing and feeling end user desire and trying to respond to that while still providing all of the positive communication and support elements we're known for. So, we'll see.

http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy/

Try clicking on one of the lenses. Feedback is welcome.

I don't know what will come from this thread. It's a reasonable thread, reasonable questions to ask. It's clear that local buying options are a very mixed bag. It's just the way it is, unfortunately. If they are, do they really deserve your business? Should you have to put yourself through the difficulty of dealing with them?
 
We're always a great option.


Steve Hendrix

[bcooter]

This industry (the picture takin' industry, not the camera making/sellin' industry) has been ramped up to light speed and everything must be fast, easy and with no excuse.  Not in today's market.

I think dealers have worth, if they're good, but the medium format biz is complicated and it  started out that way with proprietary mounts,  file formats and tethering software.

I believe with all my heart and soul that two things limiting medium format down to the realm of niche cameras is the  cost, usability and the buying/learning process.

When I upgraded from a Valeo to an Aptus since I had a Contax mount I was put on the back of the list.  (Yair sped things up some), but  there you are cash in hand and you can't get what you need to start working.

Had the mounts and software been universal that wouldn't have been an issue.  Had the cameras been out on time, with full lenses, obviously sales would have been higher, prices could have gone down.

Conversely when I wanted (well I didn't want it) but needed a medium format back with stable software (c-1 v3) I called Dave at Capture Integration and got one the next day.  

Now with the added move to motion imagery, high end cameras have also become more like the medium format mode.  As I made mention if you buy a Red One today you're put on the back of the list for the upgrade to the mx sensor, once again cash in hand and you gotta wait an undetermined period.

One system is through the dealer, one through the maker, but both usually mean you pay and wait.

In both instances, Still (Leaf), Motion (Red), Canon got my money first, because i had work to do and no time to wait and I'm obviously not alone on this thought since 75% of all professional work is shot with a Canon.

Next is the complication of high end cameras and/or software being a work in progress.  C-1 V 3 was rock solid, V4 not, V5 complicated interface, but better, I hear the same with Phocus and the funny thing is everybody says Leaf Capture 11 is the most stable because 10 was something you didn't want to know about.  

All that is fine that the makers improved their software, but since medium format is completely computer dependent it's kinda nuts that it takes a year or so for the software to get really workable.

It's a frustrating process and no dealer or direct contact with the maker seemed to change the process.  The dealer could tell you it's messed up and a fix is coming, but what good does that do and more importantly how do you tell a client, sorry, but the software is a work in progress so it's gonna take a while?

I always felt like saying fine,  since only 75% of my purchase is fully operational, I'll just pay 75% of the cost and remit the remainder when it all finally works.  (obviously that thought didn't go over well).

You hear a lot of latest and greatest talk on this forum by people that may shoot for a living, but they're not in the high production world that really keeps this business spinning.  If you walk into any of the 50 rental studios in LA, or NY, Chicago, Dallas or on location in Miami,  of the photographers that own their own equipment and work week in, week out, you'd be amazed at how few use or even consider the latest and greatest, because a 10% incremental change isn't going to show up or be considered, not at the cost of most upgrades.

But as far as going direct or through a dealer, I see no difference.  The strange thing is the professional picture takin' business has taken a big hit, made big changes and everybody has had to modify their method of doing business.   Rental studios, prop makers, assistants, makeup artists, models, photographers, producers, agents, stylists all work harder, tougher, longer, faster than ever before  . . . in some instances 10x's more than previous years, but the high end camera business still has the same exact process today they had in 2005.

Makes no sense other than I know in today's world whether you walk into RED, B+H, Samy's or fotocare and if they don't have what you need today, at a discount price,  you go somewhere else.

If a dealer or maker fibs about the usability or says something vital is on back order, you return your purchase.  It's that kind of world.

Gone are the days of asking "how much".  Now you say, this is what I'm willing  to pay and if your reasonable, somebody will take you up on it.

Once again, one of the reasons Canon sells like crazy isn't just the price.  It's the fact it's a universal system, works in almost any software and you can buy it today, anywhere.

IMO

BC

[fredjeang]

Proportionally, how much volume is currently shooted with, for example, the Contax 645 today?

I beleive that Canon is number one not because of the cameras, and many posts here are pointing that strictly talking about the camera, the Sony A900 is a better value for example, but because of all the distribution and peripherical aspects.

A friend of mine needed a tilt-shift in the act and it was only possible with Canon. He had a MK3 but normally shoot Leica. He took the Canon, not because he wanted, but because it was the only option that day. You find what you want, both new or second-hand wherever you are and whenever you need.

Seems that MF distribution is really painfull. As I said here, the Pentax 645 will arrive in the spanish market just after this summer. No need to go to Tokyo. But for what I read, it's gonna be in Bacelona where they have their importer and the cue is already booked.

Last time I went to my dealer, he had a call from a big Spanish photographer while I was talking with him, I recognized who was the guy on the phone (AGA). He was asking about the S2. The dealer went very laconic, and talked about months...it's really: we don't know for sure.

edit.

"Fortunately", and with all the respect of course, I don't belong to that stressfull part of the photography where pressure is extreme, but still I like peace of mind and instant feedback.

I agree with most the posts here.

[Doug Peterson]

And about the C1 5, I'm not so sure they fixed all the unstability as I just experienced again.

C1 5.1.1 is rock solid. Like any program (CS4, Office, Mail, etx) OS issues, hardware issues, or other mitigating factors may cause problems for you. If you're not experiencing rock solid performance and stability then there is something specifically awry with your particular setup which can be fixed. Speak with your local dealer, do a clean install, and keep your computer in good order (good advice regardless of what programs you use), and note my statement about Canon+10.6 earlier in this thread.

The number one cause of instability for our users right now is not following our advice to uninstall previous versions of C1 using our instructions before installing a new version.

Also see our Ideal Tethered Setup for a checklist of best practices.

You can ignore every best practice at that link and let your computer fill with crap, permissions problems, lots of preference/support files from previous versions of Capture One float around, shoot through two daisy chained 10 meter cables strung across power packs and have old and gene-rationally mismatched computer/camera/lens firmware and be just fine almost all the time. We (Capture Integration) don't accept "almost all the time". It's just knowing your gear and following best practices - like not moving (most types of) hot lights while they are on, not unplugging (certain models of) strobes while they are holding charge, holding your camera body pointed down when changing lenses etc.

So yeah, if 5.1.1 is not completely solid for you then there is something going on that you can find and fix.

Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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[fredjeang]

C1 5.1.1 is rock solid. Like any program (CS4, Office, Mail, etx) OS issues, hardware issues, or other mitigating factors may cause problems for you. If you're not experiencing rock solid performance and stability then there is something specifically awry with your particular setup which can be fixed. Speak with your local dealer, do a clean install, and keep your computer in good order (good advice regardless of what programs you use), and note my statement about Canon+10.6 earlier in this thread.

The number one cause of instability for our users right now is not following our advice to uninstall previous versions of C1 using our instructions before installing a new version.

Also see our Ideal Tethered Setup for a checklist of best practices.

You can ignore every best practice at that link and let your computer fill with crap, permissions problems, lots of preference/support files from previous versions of Capture One float around, shoot through two daisy chained 10 meter cables strung across power packs and have old and gene-rationally mismatched computer/camera/lens firmware and be just fine almost all the time. We (Capture Integration) don't accept "almost all the time". It's just knowing your gear and following best practices - like not moving (most types of) hot lights while they are on, not unplugging (certain models of) strobes while they are holding charge, holding your camera body pointed down when changing lenses etc.

So yeah, if 5.1.1 is not completely solid for you then there is something going on that you can find and fix.

Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work

Doug,

Sorry,
you posted this before I was ready to make an edit of my last C1 comment to rectify.
I've been "unfair" with C1 5. Just did not know about a detail concerning DNG format that I've been using in some takes.

So in rectification I can assure that C1 5 seems really rock solid now. I've been working on it tonight and I'm impressed. More importantly, the new features are extremely well implemented to my taste and very usefull. No doubt it's my favorite software. Just that I'm sometimes a little reluctant in reading all the manuals and want to sit and work.

To be fair, I've erased my comment.

Ps: Your advice to uninstall previous versions is true. I've done it in one computer and it works stable. But in the other one that's where I had problems and I did not uninstall previous versions.

Cheers.

[John.Williams]

This topic is the premise upon which we decided to enter the reseller market in the height of the economic contraction in February 2009.

Photographic buyers who are researching the best equipment possible are looking for expertise in the product capabilities, photographic and computing experience, and the ability to communicate what is important in any given situation. Still, location, action, interior, mixed lighting - the works.

Steve and Doug from Capture Integration demonstrate their expertise on a regular basis - granted with a different camera brand(s) than Hasselblad - but the function is identical: provide the best service, leave the BS at the door, and get down to the real nitty-gritty that helps get the job done.

We offer the same on the Hasselblad side of the equation; not sure about a function? Get in touch with us, we can help. Don't just take my word for it - put us to the test. For the past year, look up my posts on LL, you will find our motivation is to add value through experience and hands-on assistance, consultation, and demonstration. Like most of you, what you see is what you get, minus techno-drama spasms and fits.

How about a firmware update? Does it help you, did you know about it, will it make your image capture better/easier/faster? What is the latest software version and how does it help?

Separate the wheat from the chaff when you seek the appropriate dealer resource. There is the best in every category, but the buyer must seek it.

Is excellent customer service dead? Looking at our books for the past 14 months, it doesn't appear so.

John

[TMARK]

Ok, I have the solution. Everyone buy from us.

We may have to raise prices (just a bit) to handle the extra volume. But you'll have the experience you want. I'm almost completely serious.


Steve Hendrix

I agree.  Really.  You guys are fantastic.

[pixjohn]

Have you ever noticed that you get better serves in a small city over a big city like NY or Los Angeles? The car dealers in LA suck, so I drove 44 miles away from LA, and got better service and paid less.