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feppe

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Any good dSLR video forums out there?
« on: April 20, 2010, 06:06:13 pm »

I'd like to get into dSLR video, shooting short fiction films. As it's very quiet here, I'm looking for a forum dedicated to dSLR motion shooting. Does anyone have recommendations on an active, brand-agnostic, civil forum which is frequented by knowledgeable, intelligent people? I'm more interested in the strobist-style of shooting, rather than spending tens of thousands on gear alone - so a strong DIY culture should be present.

akclimber

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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2010, 06:44:34 pm »

Quote from: feppe
I'd like to get into dSLR video, shooting short fiction films. As it's very quiet here, I'm looking for a forum dedicated to dSLR motion shooting. Does anyone have recommendations on an active, brand-agnostic, civil forum which is frequented by knowledgeable, intelligent people? I'm more interested in the strobist-style of shooting, rather than spending tens of thousands on gear alone - so a strong DIY culture should be present.

Here ya go.  

http://www.cinema5d.com/
http://dvxuser.com/
http://www.dvinfo.net/

Enjoy!
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2010, 01:16:25 am »

Quote from: feppe
I'd like to get into dSLR video, shooting short fiction films. As it's very quiet here, I'm looking for a forum dedicated to dSLR motion shooting. Does anyone have recommendations on an active, brand-agnostic, civil forum which is frequented by knowledgeable, intelligent people? I'm more interested in the strobist-style of shooting, rather than spending tens of thousands on gear alone - so a strong DIY culture should be present.

I think you are pretty much out on your own

All those fora have a balance of clueless rude wanna be indy kids and some intelligent professionals

you need to mine for gold

All I can say is DSLR shooting is a thankless artform

I got the 5d on release day and feel Im begining to crack it now

In fact I primarily use the 7d because focussing the 5d is so hard

Ask away

S
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feppe

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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2010, 06:25:25 am »

Quote from: Morgan_Moore
I think you are pretty much out on your own

All those fora have a balance of clueless rude wanna be indy kids and some intelligent professionals

you need to mine for gold

All I can say is DSLR shooting is a thankless artform

I got the 5d on release day and feel Im begining to crack it now

In fact I primarily use the 7d because focussing the 5d is so hard

Ask away

S

Yeah, I checked some of the forums above and the SNR could certainly be better.

I'm one of those wannabe indy "kids," although not rude  I've written an (unproduced) feature length screenplay, and have plenty of ideas for short films. One even with a budget that me and my friends can afford which we're looking to shoot this summer. So purely for fun at this moment and perhaps doing a festival or two some day; no aspirations whatsoever to do any commercial work (gainfully employed elsewhere).

I recently upgraded to 550D from 450D, and it should have basically the same video capabilities as the highly regarded 7D. My Olympus E-PL1 should also be suitable for some special effects and/or second camera.

I'm right now more interested in just getting my head around what I need gearwise. I found a very thorough NoFilmSchool article which covers pretty much all gear quite nicely. It seems I mainly need a set of ND filters, pan head for my tripods, boom mic and an off-camera audio recorder, and some DIY shoulder rig. I'm not looking for follow focus at the moment, mainly due to the expense involved - Redrock Micro has a $500 unit coming out which sounds promising, though.

I've been looking for a good DIY steadicam, but the best guide I've found doesn't include any schematics and I've no clue how to acquire the materials and build it - and all commercial ones are pro-priced. Even Redrock Micro jacked up their prices recently so they're out of the question.

Do you have any recommendations on an affordable editing package, something which can be upgraded to pro if features are not enough, and preferably Magic Bullet compatible? Codecs, transcoding, grading, etc are all very new to me so post is where my biggest knowledge gaps are.

Also, what is a "normal" lens for a 550D/7D for cine use? Is it ~35mm like it is for stills? I have a 14mm, 85mm and 135mm primes, and have been looking to close the gap with a 35mm or 50mm for stills. I'm not going to buy any zooms anymore, got rid of my 24-105mm F4L in disgust a few months ago.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 06:28:26 am by feppe »
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Hywel

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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2010, 06:50:28 am »

Quote from: feppe
Yeah, I checked some of the forums above and the SNR could certainly be better.

I'm one of those wannabe indy "kids," although not rude  I've written an (unproduced) feature length screenplay, and have plenty of ideas for short films. One even with a budget that me and my friends can afford which we're looking to shoot this summer. So purely for fun at this moment and perhaps doing a festival or two some day; no aspirations whatsoever to do any commercial work (gainfully employed elsewhere).

I recently upgraded to 550D from 450D, and it should have basically the same video capabilities as the highly regarded 7D. My Olympus E-PL1 should also be suitable for some special effects and/or second camera.

I'm right now more interested in just getting my head around what I need gearwise. I found a very thorough NoFilmSchool article which covers pretty much all gear quite nicely. It seems I mainly need a set of ND filters, pan head for my tripods, boom mic and an off-camera audio recorder, and some DIY shoulder rig. I'm not looking for follow focus at the moment, mainly due to the expense involved - Redrock Micro has a $500 unit coming out which sounds promising, though.

I've been looking for a good DIY steadicam, but the best guide I've found doesn't include any schematics and I've no clue how to acquire the materials and build it - and all commercial ones are pro-priced. Even Redrock Micro jacked up their prices recently so they're out of the question.

Do you have any recommendations on an affordable editing package, something which can be upgraded to pro if features are not enough, and preferably Magic Bullet compatible? Codecs, transcoding, grading, etc are all very new to me so post is where my biggest knowledge gaps are.

Also, what is a "normal" lens for a 550D/7D for cine use? Is it ~35mm like it is for stills? I have a 14mm, 85mm and 135mm primes, and have been looking to close the gap with a 35mm or 50mm for stills. I'm not going to buy any zooms anymore, got rid of my 24-105mm F4L in disgust a few months ago.


You mention Magic Bullet, that's definitely a must for me. If you don't know about it, the developer Stu Maschwitz has an excellent blog at http://prolost.com/ and you absolutely must get hold of a copy of his book, The DV Rebel's guide. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0321413644/prolost-20 Although a lot of the camera tech stuff has been a bit overshadowed by the dSLR revolution, all the advice of how to shoot, edit, produce and generally attack a film project are absolutely invaluable. I reread mine a couple of times a year and still pick up really useful gems of info.

Yeh, a normal lens for the 550D/7D is around 35 mm. A 35 mm and 50 mm prime would round out your lens selection nicely. Personally I always like to use a 50 mm on my 7D for the more flattering effect it has on models, but for general use the 35 mm is probably the better choice given your other lenses.

I wouldn't hope for too many savings on the software side. The only reason it is possible to produce professional-looking results as a small producer is the advent of cheap computing power and you really need a program that will tap this power to the max.

I do not think you will regret the investment in Final Cut Pro Studio (if on the Mac) or Premiere Pro, Avid or Sony Vegas on the PC. Personally I'd take Final Cut over the alternatives any day, but it is a personal choice which family to go with. If you must go cut down, Final Cut Express is probably worth a look but make damn sure it supports your camera's output!

The cut down programs will probably be too limiting too quickly. Editing the footage from these dSLRs is a tricky job because they are so heavily compressed, and transcoding into an industrial strength editing codec like ProRes422 is an absolute must for quality results and fluidity of editing. You'll likely be spending more of your time in front of the editing software than any other single step in production, and cutting corners here is something that could cost you weeks- and dollars when you end up having to buy a full package.

If you're intending to produce final product for possible cinema display I'd maybe go even further and suggest After Effects as well. Read Stu's book for a whole chapter on why this is a good thing :-) But it is maybe less so with the advent of editing codecs like ProRes, and certainly unnecessary if your final destination is 720p/1080p/DVD or the web rather than the big screen.

  Cheers, Hywel






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feppe

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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2010, 12:49:41 pm »

Quote from: Hywel
You mention Magic Bullet, that's definitely a must for me. If you don't know about it, the developer Stu Maschwitz has an excellent blog at http://prolost.com/ and you absolutely must get hold of a copy of his book, The DV Rebel's guide. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0321413644/prolost-20 Although a lot of the camera tech stuff has been a bit overshadowed by the dSLR revolution, all the advice of how to shoot, edit, produce and generally attack a film project are absolutely invaluable. I reread mine a couple of times a year and still pick up really useful gems of info.

Yeh, a normal lens for the 550D/7D is around 35 mm. A 35 mm and 50 mm prime would round out your lens selection nicely. Personally I always like to use a 50 mm on my 7D for the more flattering effect it has on models, but for general use the 35 mm is probably the better choice given your other lenses.

I wouldn't hope for too many savings on the software side. The only reason it is possible to produce professional-looking results as a small producer is the advent of cheap computing power and you really need a program that will tap this power to the max.

I do not think you will regret the investment in Final Cut Pro Studio (if on the Mac) or Premiere Pro, Avid or Sony Vegas on the PC. Personally I'd take Final Cut over the alternatives any day, but it is a personal choice which family to go with. If you must go cut down, Final Cut Express is probably worth a look but make damn sure it supports your camera's output!

The cut down programs will probably be too limiting too quickly. Editing the footage from these dSLRs is a tricky job because they are so heavily compressed, and transcoding into an industrial strength editing codec like ProRes422 is an absolute must for quality results and fluidity of editing. You'll likely be spending more of your time in front of the editing software than any other single step in production, and cutting corners here is something that could cost you weeks- and dollars when you end up having to buy a full package.

If you're intending to produce final product for possible cinema display I'd maybe go even further and suggest After Effects as well. Read Stu's book for a whole chapter on why this is a good thing :-) But it is maybe less so with the advent of editing codecs like ProRes, and certainly unnecessary if your final destination is 720p/1080p/DVD or the web rather than the big screen.

  Cheers, Hywel

Thanks! Yes, seen some clips by Magic Bullet's makers, and the color effects are exactly what I would want to do to get a specific look.

I'm on PC so Premiere Pro sounds like the obvious choice for integration with PS - and it seems to be reasonably priced.

I've read about the ProRes being the industry standard. But I'm confused about your big screen comment: since the source material is 1080p, why would the workflow be different for cinema vs. 1080p digital video (other than possibly framerate which I'd imagine can be adjusted in Premiere Pro)? Or should I wait until the book arrives for the full explanation  In any case, cinema is a pie in the sky at the moment, but I'm a strong believer in doing things right the first time - as long as it's within my budget and skill set.

Thanks for the book tip, it's on my next amazon order

Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2010, 01:01:42 pm »

Quote from: feppe
Yeah, I checked some of the forums above and the SNR could certainly be better.

I'm one of those wannabe indy "kids," although not rude  I've written an (unproduced) feature length screenplay, and have plenty of ideas for short films. One even with a budget that me and my friends can afford which we're looking to shoot this summer. So purely for fun at this moment and perhaps doing a festival or two some day; no aspirations whatsoever to do any commercial work (gainfully employed elsewhere).

I recently upgraded to 550D from 450D, and it should have basically the same video capabilities as the highly regarded 7D. My Olympus E-PL1 should also be suitable for some special effects and/or second camera.

I'm right now more interested in just getting my head around what I need gearwise. I found a very thorough NoFilmSchool article which covers pretty much all gear quite nicely. It seems I mainly need a set of ND filters, pan head for my tripods, boom mic and an off-camera audio recorder, and some DIY shoulder rig. I'm not looking for follow focus at the moment, mainly due to the expense involved - Redrock Micro has a $500 unit coming out which sounds promising, though.

I've been looking for a good DIY steadicam, but the best guide I've found doesn't include any schematics and I've no clue how to acquire the materials and build it - and all commercial ones are pro-priced. Even Redrock Micro jacked up their prices recently so they're out of the question.

Do you have any recommendations on an affordable editing package, something which can be upgraded to pro if features are not enough, and preferably Magic Bullet compatible? Codecs, transcoding, grading, etc are all very new to me so post is where my biggest knowledge gaps are.

Also, what is a "normal" lens for a 550D/7D for cine use? Is it ~35mm like it is for stills? I have a 14mm, 85mm and 135mm primes, and have been looking to close the gap with a 35mm or 50mm for stills. I'm not going to buy any zooms anymore, got rid of my 24-105mm F4L in disgust a few months ago.

www.Hbsboard.com is the place for DIY steadicam

I dont know if you are a professional (photographer) who can write the kit of against the business but Im just finding buy an expensive one of everything !

Or learn the limitations

a 50 1.4 or 30 (you could try the Stigma 30 1.4) is a good middle lens

personally I dont want to faf between shots and use a tokina 16-50 for nearly everything !

I use Final Cut to edit

The RR FF will be more like $6K I think but it is 'AF'

Ive ended up making my own suport system and cheapo follow focus www.halfinchrails.com

Ive saved cash with a big ND filter and some step down rings

You need to just get out there and try

You will need a Zfinder or LCDFV or a monitor (SmallHD has 720p - enough to check focus)

Everything about filming is brutal -

wind wobbles your tripod - ruined shot
floorboard shake wobbles your tripod - - ruined shot
see yourself in a shiny doornob - ruined shot
lights or reflector wobble in the wind - ruined shot
exposure off - ruined shot
miss focus - ruined shot
pan at the wrong speed - - ruined shot
wobbly lens mount - ruined shot
plane going by - ruined sound

thats before you have found shots that cut into a sequence !

and even before the sequence looks good

as for steadicam and handholding - really Zen things to do nicely

I think that one thing that makes filming hard for the stills photographer is that we have high visual standards and often frame tight stressing focus

S



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Hywel

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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2010, 02:08:40 pm »

Quote from: feppe
Thanks! Yes, seen some clips by Magic Bullet's makers, and the color effects are exactly what I would want to do to get a specific look.

I'm on PC so Premiere Pro sounds like the obvious choice for integration with PS - and it seems to be reasonably priced.

I've read about the ProRes being the industry standard. But I'm confused about your big screen comment: since the source material is 1080p, why would the workflow be different for cinema vs. 1080p digital video (other than possibly framerate which I'd imagine can be adjusted in Premiere Pro)? Or should I wait until the book arrives for the full explanation  In any case, cinema is a pie in the sky at the moment, but I'm a strong believer in doing things right the first time - as long as it's within my budget and skill set.

Thanks for the book tip, it's on my next amazon order


Well, I've never output anything to film either, so I'm just going by hearsay. I think that transfer to film is about the most demanding thing you can do with your footage- it is kinda like trying to up-sample it. If you think you might need to do that, you should avoid applying any further perceptual compression methods at all, work in the highest colour depth you can and absolutely avoid colour sub-sampling, because what looks great at 100% looks significantly worse at higher magnifications. Which is what the big screen effectively gives you. Codecs with 422 colour subsampling have the colour information at half the spatial resolution of the luminosity information, because our eyes are less sensitive to colour change than luminosity change. Blow it up, though, and the blockiness of the colour is there for all to see. (Apple have introduced ProRes444 to help, in version 7 of FCP).

Does that matter, given that the original signal from the camera has had the most brutal compression applied to it already? Yes, if you intend to do any changes to it- like applying a Look in Magic Bullet Looks, for example. You don't want to risk compromising the signal any more than it already is, you want to wring every last bit of accuracy that the system can possibly deliver for you. So from the moment the footage comes out of the camera to the moment it gets stuffed into whatever final form you need it, you want to keep the quality as high as you can.

If your delivery is a DVD or a Blu-ray or anything else that'd going to have heavy compression applied to it at the end of the process, it just doesn't matter so much- the final squash is again so brutal that losing a bit of information in the middle steps is highly unlikely to have any effect at all.

If you go with Premiere Pro, you'll be in great shape if you ever do need to reprocess and output via After Effects, as the two programs can work closely together. So get Premiere for now, and worry about After Effects if someone offers you a great distibution deal on your film! Keep the master footage, of course- that way you can always redo the final output at a later date if you need to.

I used Premiere Pro before I switched to Macs, and it is a pretty reasonable product, although Adobe will keep adding stupid consumer level features, and the stability can be a bit dodgy. I preferred its approach to multicam footage to FCPs, but FCP is pretty much bulletproof, I don't think I've had a single crash in the 14 months I've been using it. Premiere would crash every few days- fine, so long as you use autosave, but still annoying. No idea what later versions are like, I stopped production work when they went to CS4 as for some reason this would not play nice on my system and crashed repeatedly- may have been patched by now but it provided me the final push needed to go to the Mac!

  Cheers, Hywel.

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Hywel

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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2010, 02:11:32 pm »

Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Everything about filming is brutal -

wind wobbles your tripod - ruined shot
floorboard shake wobbles your tripod - - ruined shot
see yourself in a shiny doornob - ruined shot
lights or reflector wobble in the wind - ruined shot
exposure off - ruined shot
miss focus - ruined shot
pan at the wrong speed - - ruined shot
wobbly lens mount - ruined shot
plane going by - ruined sound

Oh yeh, ain't that the truth. Dislodged external mic plug - no audio bars - ruined sound potentially on shots = reshoot an hour or more's work. Argh.

Oh, and sound is more important than picture for movies. Nothing breaks continuity or quality quicker than bad sound.

Download the footage and view the rushes EARLY and OFTEN. A few minutes spent reviewing each setup before moving on can save huge headaches later.

These things are just not meant to shoot video. They can, and they can produce some spectacular results, but the ergonomics SUCK SUCK SUCK compared with even a low end pro/indie dedicated video cam like an HVX200. (Which is why I've kept my two HVX200s as well as buying a 7D).

  Cheers, Hywel.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 02:14:57 pm by Hywel »
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jjj

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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2010, 02:24:20 pm »

Quote from: Hywel
Oh, and sound is more important than picture for movies. Nothing breaks continuity or quality quicker than bad sound.
Cannot be emphasised enough. Crappy imagery can be stylistic, crappy sound is simply crappy.

One of the main things to realise is that a photographer can easily work on his own, but making films tends to be a team job, if you want to get the same level of quality. Team work can reduce the problems mentioned above as you can properly focus on the task at hand not several. Multitasking [and not just in this context] usually means several jobs done badly at he same time, not more efficiency.
A photographer is also equivalent to the DoP [Director of Photography] on a film set, not the director as that is a very, very different skillset.
And more important than anything else is the story. Film making is story telling not nice picture capturing.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 02:26:35 pm by jjj »
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2010, 03:09:11 pm »

I bought a Tascam 100 recorder not to mention £200 mic and £150 'cans' and also sony 'lavs kit

I found the Tascam fimsy and it was not booting up in a way I could trust

Today I just took delivery of a sound devices 702

It feels beautifully built

Trouble it actually cost more than the 7d by about double!

If you want cheap get an EX1 !

This DSLR conversion has cost me $$$$$$ to get some thing I feel I could use in front of a client

S
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peterpix

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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2010, 08:17:29 pm »

also check out Planet5d and Philip Bloom's blog
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2010, 02:06:00 am »

Quote from: peterpix
also check out Planet5d and Philip Bloom's blog

IMO Phil has 'slipped' - he started out as an indy mogul and now slips crucial little phrases like 'my focus puller' into the blog

The words indy mogul remind me there is a website of that title - great little videos about many aspects of film making

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2010, 10:05:27 pm »

not a forum but lots of good info: http://photocinenews.com/
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