Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Lucas Films shooting major feature with dslrs...will MF ever enter this market with a CMOS camera?  (Read 4490 times)

lisa_r

  • Guest

I don't remember what the reasons are for MF cameras not getting CMOS chips - but it seems like the MF companies which are struggling to survive are missing a MAJOR market for DSLRs here! Seems like they could increase sales 10 fold with cmos + video...some very interesting clips below.

Interesting insight from Lucasfilm on using DSLRs in a feature film...

Mike Blanchard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqs1-dFEXE

Rick McCallum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4xqrXcuTU0

Is it a lack of R+D budgets which keeps Hassy/Phase/etc out of this market?

It seriously seems like it could save these MF companies from flirting with disaster.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 04:14:33 pm by lisa_r »
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4210
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com

Quote from: lisa_r
...but it seems like the MF companies which are struggling ... It seriously seems like it could save these MF companies from flirting with disaster.

I wouldn't take the failure of some of the traditionally-weaker players in the MF space during the largest recession in (pick your statistic) years as a sign of industry wide collapse.

From where I'm sitting the view is not bleak at all. In fact the Phase One 65+ and Phase One 40+ have seen great uptake and it sounds like Hassy is doing well with their H4D-40.

Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 04:56:42 pm by dougpetersonci »
Logged

JonathanBenoit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414

Quote from: lisa_r
I don't remember what the reasons are for MF cameras not getting CMOS chips - but it seems like the MF companies which are struggling to survive are missing a MAJOR market for DSLRs here! Seems like they could increase sales 10 fold with cmos + video...some very interesting clips below.

Interesting insight from Lucasfilm on using DSLRs in a feature film...

Mike Blanchard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqs1-dFEXE

Rick McCallum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4xqrXcuTU0

Is it a lack of R+D budgets which keeps Hassy/Phase/etc out of this market?

It seriously seems like it could save these MF companies from flirting with disaster.

I dont see a market for that combo. If someone is going to spend $30,000 on a video camera, they wont buy a video and still camera combo. They will want a camera specifically for video with the features of a high end video camera. I cant see a medium format camera with all the features needed for high end video and all the features of the current medium format cameras. I'd rather just go out and buy a $1700 dollar canon 7d for video then have a cluttered Hasselblad or Phase 645.
Logged

Theresa

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51

Quote from: JonathanBenoit
I dont see a market for that combo. If someone is going to spend $30,000 on a video camera, they wont buy a video and still camera combo. They will want a camera specifically for video with the features of a high end video camera. I cant see a medium format camera with all the features needed for high end video and all the features of the current medium format cameras. I'd rather just go out and buy a $1700 dollar canon 7d for video then have a cluttered Hasselblad or Phase 645.

I think the use of dSLRs to shoot pro video is a fad and will be short lived.  A professional should be able to easily afford a "Red" and get a camera ergonomically suitable for making movies.  It will also take great FF stills and I think it makes more sense to have still capture in a movie camera than video in a still camera.

Logged

Dick Roadnight

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1730

Quote from: Theresa
I think the use of dSLRs to shoot pro video is a fad and will be short lived.  A professional should be able to easily afford a "Red" and get a camera ergonomically suitable for making movies.  It will also take great FF stills and I think it makes more sense to have still capture in a movie camera than video in a still camera.
So - can you put a RED 645 on the back of a Sinar P3?
Logged
Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/

Quote from: Theresa
I think the use of dSLRs to shoot pro video is a fad and will be short lived.  A professional should be able to easily afford a "Red" and get a camera ergonomically suitable for making movies.  It will also take great FF stills and I think it makes more sense to have still capture in a movie camera than video in a still camera.

Thom Hogan wrote some very interesting things on this topic recently: http://www.bythom.com/design2010.htm

He is mostly saying that:

- we are at a point in time where still represents still 90% of content for those potentially interested in shooting both,
- the current DSLR do not have the right ergonomics to do video well,
- they never will
- he thinks that Canon, Nikon, Sony (Panasonic already annouced theirs) will basically deliver soon specific video oriented devices based on DSLR technology to address this market.

When you think about it, it is incredibly obvious. They have all the technological bricks and this is a domain where they have been 10 times better than anybody else for many many years. The only thing that has prevented this from happening already is internal politics in these companies. Interestingly Nikon has the best card to play here since they have no market to cannibalize.

Knowing how quickly and well these guys work I am afraid that they will have released 2 iterations of their device by the time Red ships something remotely close in price. One year later they will be supporting 3D. 4K will be there before you realize it.

Now, are MF backs players likely to enter this market? They obviously rely on the chip manufacturers. I believe that both Kodak and Dalsa should be interested in the motion picture market but are they willing to invest their remaining resources in CMOS technological developements when the Japanese and koreans have been pouring litterally tens of billions of US$ of R&D money in this already?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 05:51:28 pm by BernardLanguillier »
Logged

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060

Since video in this sector is being done with decimation, the full benefits of the MF sensor size might not be available at first.  

Downsampling full captures would be very interesting, but would require an extremely fast pipeline.  Current MF cameras struggle to produce more than one capture per second.  

But it is an interesting question.  Now that the Pentax 645D is here for $9500, we understand that we are talking about a $1000 sensor and ~$4000 worth of camera and lens as the sum of the MF digital still camera.  To put it lightly, I'm scoffing at any more boutique MFD cameras.  Now, the $30,000 or so that one used to pay for an MFDB is like the price of a digital cine camera, a "real" one.  

I'm betting on technology being deployed more for multi purposes in coming times.  I don't think it will be /that/ long before a $10,000 MF combo cam is here.  

Of course there are some qualifications to the view.  But the cost of the sensor, camera, fast pipeline, and fast storage will all converge, and video capability will be a driving force.  Video capable chips will be the volume and price leaders.

JonathanBenoit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414

Quote from: LKaven
I'm betting on technology being deployed more for multi purposes in coming times.  I don't think it will be /that/ long before a $10,000 MF combo cam is here.

I dont understand why people think prices will drop. Now you think they will add pro quality video and the price will be the same? When you say it wont be too long, does that mean 20 years from now?
There are cameras for video and cameras for photography. Each does its job much better than the other. To speculate as to how the future is going to turn out is just crazy. If you like video so much go buy a video camera. I wish there was a way to hide all video posts in this forum.
Logged

EinstStein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 501

I had the same argument when I read the 5DII's movie mode, but now I admit I was wrong.
The other side of the question is, how much does it take to make a high-end DSLR to be high end movie-capable.
I think the key is the frame rate and the image data transfer rate. Blame G Moore for his semiconductor law. The image rate is now quite capable to support the movie mode.
In fact, the TV's frame rate is also boosting up, how much is it today? 240 per second, 1920x1200? SNR 72db? We'll see how the camera and the TV are going to dance the waltz.
One will push the need, and the other one will pull in for that. Sound familar? thinking about Intel and Microsoft?
Don't worry about the movie mode control stuffs, these are simply another sub-routings in the microprocessor.

For MF DSLR, the challenge is how to enlarge the market base, the production volumn, the R&D, etc. It can no longer play the hermite, it must step out to play the  game of main stream.
Which, unfortunately, is setting by the 35mm giant of canon and Nikon etc.

Quote from: JonathanBenoit
I dont see a market for that combo. If someone is going to spend $30,000 on a video camera, they wont buy a video and still camera combo. They will want a camera specifically for video with the features of a high end video camera. I cant see a medium format camera with all the features needed for high end video and all the features of the current medium format cameras. I'd rather just go out and buy a $1700 dollar canon 7d for video then have a cluttered Hasselblad or Phase 645.
Logged

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060

Quote from: JonathanBenoit
I dont understand why people think prices will drop. Now you think they will add pro quality video and the price will be the same? When you say it wont be too long, does that mean 20 years from now?
There are cameras for video and cameras for photography. Each does its job much better than the other. To speculate as to how the future is going to turn out is just crazy. If you like video so much go buy a video camera. I wish there was a way to hide all video posts in this forum.
The technology DNA for motion capture escaped into the mass market from the DSLR as it turns out.  The DSLR delivered inexpensive large sensors, an inexpensive platform with impressive computing power, and very high quality off-the-shelf optics.  Obviously the 5DII is a good studio camera and "good enough" to shoot network television productions.  

The 5DII is a kludge to be sure, but it is proof that the basic DNA is there; the creature is alive and has escaped from the laboratory.  The market is exploding, and no serious camera manufacturer can afford to ignore it.  That DNA, in fitter forms, will find its way into variously purposed offerings.  This is a very strong driver for the market, both in volume, capability, and price.  

At the same time, the MFD market is challenged to continue to justify boutique pricing in the face of strong competition from Pentax, and perhaps from other major manufacturers.  A (USD) $1k sensor in a $4k camera gives you about $12k price, or the price of a 645D with a lens or two.  How long before the $1k sensor slot is occupied by a video capable chip, given the level of competition.  If you are a chip manufacturer, do you want to sell 10,000 chips without video capability to still camera makers, or do you want to sell 30,000+ chips to both still camera makers and multipurpose video, and video+still camera makers?  

Meanwhile, the "magazine" publisher is looking around the decimated wasteland of their former market.  But new portable content delivery platforms are here, eg, the iPad, selling like hotcakes.  Are you going to put forth the static magazine pages on the iPad?  Or are you going to create dynamic content from the killer new video DSLRs that everybody is using now?  Are you going to live as a still photographer after the smoke clears, or are you (we) going to reinvent yourself?  Some publications are requiring video and still skills for their staff photographers.  Some photographers are even being asked to reapply for their own jobs, with video skill figuring prominently on the application.

Sure, there will still be high end cameras purposed either for stills or video only.  But that won't prevent the bulge in technology at the middle.  I'd like to run from this, but I can't afford to.

JonathanBenoit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414

Quote from: LKaven

seriously, is there a way to hide posts with the word "video". there is a forum for video and it should stay there.
Logged

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060

Quote from: JonathanBenoit
Quote from: LKaven
...
seriously, is there a way to hide posts with the word "video". there is a forum for video and it should stay there.

I thought this was a bit unkind of you after I took fifteen minutes to come up with thoughtful answers to your questions.

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto

Hi,

I don't know about how much MF-makers are flirting with disaster. Plenty of good folks see clear advantage with MF, question is if there are plenty enough to keep a few makers alive. A healthy market needs a few vendors.

In my view the market for MF motion film is probably not here. Full HD is the best we have at home now, and we probably need to reinvent the movie theatre before going much further. Todays 24x36 sensors can deliver ten times the pixels needed for full HD, what is lacking is not the sensor but the electronics and storage to handle that amount of data.

So I don't see motion video as a new business for MF makers, their competence is in a different area.

Best regards
Erik





Quote from: lisa_r
I don't remember what the reasons are for MF cameras not getting CMOS chips - but it seems like the MF companies which are struggling to survive are missing a MAJOR market for DSLRs here! Seems like they could increase sales 10 fold with cmos + video...some very interesting clips below.

Interesting insight from Lucasfilm on using DSLRs in a feature film...

Mike Blanchard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqs1-dFEXE

Rick McCallum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4xqrXcuTU0

Is it a lack of R+D budgets which keeps Hassy/Phase/etc out of this market?

It seriously seems like it could save these MF companies from flirting with disaster.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

lisa_r

  • Guest

I guess in the  most basic sense, what I am getting at is adding functionality to their cameras, in order to tap into an EXPLODING market. (Instead of only chasing a dwindling market - which is still images with huge pixel counts, and high price tags.)

Canon added functionality to an already extremely popular camera - and now they can not make these 5D2 cameras fast enough! They are printing money with this thing. This was not a strength before they made the 5D2. But it sure is now. And like that Lucas films dude said, once they add RAW to the video output, it will be even bigger.

These are just thoughts as to why a business would not try to tap in to expanding markets (if they could). Like adding a web browser and email to your mobile telephone, because you can see that your competition has done it - and reaped huge rewards.)

It might also go a step toward alleviating the need for every MF owner to ALSO have a Canon ;-) (Especially since lots of the guys who use MF and 35 side by side end up selling the MF stuff and keeping the Canon - as Raphael Mazzucco did.)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 11:50:20 am by lisa_r »
Logged

JonathanBenoit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414

Quote from: lisa_r
I guess in the  most basic sense, what I am getting at is adding functionality to their cameras, in order to tap into an EXPLODING market. (Instead of only chasing a dwindling market - which is still images with huge pixel counts, and high price tags.)

Canon added functionality to an already extremely popular camera - and now they can not make these 5D2 cameras fast enough! They are printing money with this thing. This was not a strength before they made the 5D2. But it sure is now. And like that Lucas films dude said, once they add RAW to the video output, it will be even bigger.

These are just thoughts as to why a business would not try to tap in to expanding markets (if they could). Like adding a web browser and email to your mobile telephone, because you can see that your competition has done it - and reaped huge rewards.)

It might also go a step toward alleviating the need for every MF owner to ALSO have a Canon ;-) (Especially since lots of the guys who use MF and 35 side by side end up selling the MF stuff and keeping the Canon - as Raphael Mazzucco did.)

You are making some statements that aren't logical. If a medium format photographer carried around a canon, it wouldn't be for video. It would be for its speed in low light and/or better noise reduction before it would be for its video capabilities. If MF added video, a photographer would still have his 35mm for low light handheld situation where low noise is paramount. If Mazzucco ditched his MF camera, it wasn't because he wanted one camera with video capabilities. Certain types of photographer's prefer 35mm digital for the reason i stated above. Their work depends on it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 12:24:31 pm by JonathanBenoit »
Logged

lisa_r

  • Guest

Jonathan, it illustrates one instance where someone uses two formats, and opts for the Canon in the end. Same thing happens when people use Canon for video and the MF for stills, and then finds that the Canon files print fine (like the Guess ads Mr. Mazzucco shoots), it shoots faster, in lower light, and sells the MF. This happens with some frequency as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 12:26:05 pm by lisa_r »
Logged

JonathanBenoit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414

Quote from: lisa_r
Jonathan, it illustrates one instance where someone uses two formats, and opts for the Canon in the end. Same thing happens when people use Canon for video and the MF for stills, and then finds that the Canon files print fine (like the Guess ads Mr. Mazzucco shoots), it shoots faster, in lower light, and sells the MF. This happens with some frequency as far as I can tell.


There really is no point on making these types of generalizations. There are many different types of photographers that use different format cameras based on their need. The one thing for certain, is that its foolish not to do your homework before purchasing a digital medium format. If you're photography isnt going to benefit from the higher quality images, then you should know enough not to purchase it in the first place. Using Mazzucco as an example doesnt help your case.
Stating something without facts doesn't help anyone. Photographers linked to the entertainment/fashion industry quickly forget the numerous other professionals out there making higher quality images in landscape, architecture, and various other types of photography. Each photographer makes choices based on their budget and their specific need.
Your statements are based on a very specific viewpoint without facts to back it up.
Logged

lisa_r

  • Guest

I am speculating that adding video functionality might help sell more cameras (as it obviously did with 35mm.) Does this sound crazy to you?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 01:00:03 pm by lisa_r »
Logged

JonathanBenoit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414

Quote from: lisa_r
I am speculating that adding video functionality might help sell more cameras (as it obviously did with 35mm.) Does this sound crazy to you?

The technology isn't there, but if is was (in our lifetime) how cost effective would that be?
If multi shot technology adds 33% more to the cost of a MF digital camera, how much would you think top end video will add? Why wouldn't a photographer just buy a 35mm digital for his video and backup camera?

35mm is a format for anyone, because of its affordable price. A lot of parents with kids can get great value now that there is a camera that does good in both still and video. There are more non photographers out there that have purchased the 5d2 because it has both video and still. I don't see how this could translate to MF. You would only be getting professionals who shoot video. Will they switch from using cameras like RED? You may lose a portion of your still photographers if you include video. Seems like a lot of money would need to spent to create the technology with very little increase in revenue, if any. Remember, professionals are really the only photographers that can afford to spend 30,000 on a camera.
Logged

lisa_r

  • Guest

Quote from: JonathanBenoit
Remember, professionals are really the only photographers that can afford to spend 30,000 on a camera.

Yes, and right now they are spending $30K, plus $10K on a Canon setup when their clients start asking them for motion...
Don't want to argue about it. Just saying, there seems to be a market among pros as well as amateurs. Just ask your local pro camera salesman.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 01:38:34 pm by lisa_r »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up