issues with colors similar to sandstone

[Tony B.]

OK, this image is bad but shows the issue I am having.  The prints are on two different papers with custom profiles made with monacoprofiler (1728 patch targets).  It really does not matter what paper/custom profile I use I get similar results.  The monitor is profiled with an i1display2.  I have tried different display luminance and white points.


[attachment=21519:_MG_1700.jpg]

The prints where printed with lightroom (similar results printing with any program using profiles-photoshop/qimage) using a Canon iPF5000 printer (and a few canon desktop printers), the image shows the softproof from photoshop to the print on the left.  The image does not change much switching softproofing on/off, mostly contrast differences.  In the above image the monitor ended up being overexposed and the prints are underexposed and oversaturated. the left print lighting is not as good as the right print.  If a better image would help any ideas how to take it?  The problem is not as bad as the image shows but does give an idea of what I am dealing with.

I have no issues with other colors matching with the monitor, its when I am printing stone, wood, fall colors that I just can not get to match.  I get similar results on different monitor/computer/printer combinations.

I have not been able to determine if it is a monitor or print issue.

Any ideas of things to try would be greatly appreciated.

Using windows XP

Tony B.

[neile]

You mention you've tried different display luminance values, but I'm going to guess that this is partially caused by your monitor being too bright for print work. What is your current luminance reading for the monitor? I wrote a blog entry on the topic at http://www.danecreekfolios.com/blog/2010/2...ark-prints.html which you may find useful.

Can you point me to a JPEG of the file you are trying to print?

Neil

[hsmeets]

Tony,

When I look at the photo you attached I think the reason why is obvious...

You may have noticed that except the screen the whole photo has a 'warm' colorcast. That's the effect of regular tungsten light bulb (your eyes/brain adjust much better then a camera so the effect is less prominent when you are self lookig at the scene photographed).

The color temp of these tungsten bulbs are not the same as the colortemp you profiled you monitor against, so:

1) You  profile your monitor against a colortemp that is in line with your normal print viewing conditions (type of light, these bulbs)
2) or you get viewing lights that match the monitor profiling (whitepoint)

As previous poster suggested, luminacne of screen and viewing light should match otherwise the one will always be different to the other

Also Tungsten bulbs have not a spectral composition that is daylight like, a tungsten bulb might have less blue then daylight which has the effect that (example) blue colors in a print are darker then on screen and the total colorbalance shifts.

Profiling/calibration offers standard targets like gamma 2.2 and 6500K whiteblance. This is because in the printing industry there is also a standard about in what conditions you should look at prints.

However if you have always tungsten light shining on your pictures as these prints are on your wall in the living room and you want to have optimal output in that viewing conditions it has no use to these industry standards because print/screen match will be okay in these viewing conditions but as soon as you move the print to a different type of light (your light in the livingroom) the look of the print will change....

To make it even more difficult: these prints obviously will look again different at day time when sun is shing into you living room.

I hope you get the point.

What I do: yes, well I have calibrated my screen against 2.2/6000K/80cdm2 and have viewing lights that "match" this. Yes, and when I move a print to the living room the look of it changes. But I found that in mixed light chaning during the day, from natural daylight to tungsten light on average a print still looks pleasing.

[hsmeets]

Tony,

Some time ago I did a similar setup as you did: print next to screen (softproof on) and take a photograph. But opposite to you I used the viewing booth light to shine on the print, a 5000K daylight like FL tube.

[attachment=21526:Schermaf...14.06.16.jpg]

As the light was a bit too distant the print did not match the luminance of the screen so I lifted in PS the brightness of the print a tid-bit.  As you can see a good match. Although not 100% perfect : compare the red border on the wall and the asphalt of the street. Also some reflections from desktop (cherrywood colored) may throw the colorbalance off.

[Tony B.]

Thanks Neile and hsmeets for your replies so far.

My original post image is a very poor example and I should have worked on making a better sample before posting.

Neile, I have the white point to Native White Point, Gamma is 2.2 and Luminance is 90.  I have no issues with the print matching monitor with brightness.
Here is another image, taken with daylight through a window, no other lights on. I had a gray card in the photo that I adjusted white balance with.  It shows a little better the difference in the rock.

[attachment=21529:_MG_1705_1.jpg]

hsmeets, I do not have a viewing booth or good lights in my computer room.  If this is an issue with lighting then I will have to work on setting something up.  I guess my thought from reading on lighting is it would not have this much effect on the image and also have changes on all parts of the image.

Are there bulbs that fit in normal light fixtures that might help?

I have tried different white points without seeing any difference so have just had it set to native as, again from reading posts here, it seems to be recommended most.  I someone thinks a different white point will help its easily adjustable.

I have played around with adjusting hue (dragging hue adjustment in rocks, seems to add lots of orange and a little red)  in lightroom to end up with a print that better matches the pre hue adjusted monitor image and I can come closer but the same adjustements do not work for each image.  And, it takes to much time, ink and paper.

I have just hit that point where the basic color management (monitor/printer profiles) ends and more advanced stuff comes into play-at least for me.  An example is I do not know what is wrong between the two.  Is it luminance, white point, hue, saturation, rendering intent (I use perceptual).

Can the people making my profiles do anything with the Perceptual Options tab in MonacoProfiler.  They have sliders for Neutralize Gray Axis, Contrast, Saturation.  I have no idea.

Also, its not that the prints look bad but I would really like them to match my monitor better and I do not think I am very picky.  It also just seems to be an issue with the red/orange/yellow range.

Thanks again for helping out.

Tony B.

[hsmeets]

I don't have a professional booth, it's a piece of DIY, I bought 2 fluorecent tubes : Philips Graphica Pro 950, 36Watt, around 10 euro's each. easy to get here in the netherlands. Overhere are a few companies selling also a brand called ' truelight'  they sell them as tubes but also these cfl's that fit in a fixture for a normal bulb.

You screen/print match: what kind of monitor do you have? could it be that the gamut of your monitor is smaller then of you printer? So you can't see that kind of color on you screen?

This is one of my printer/paper combo versus the screen (wireframe) As you see the printer exceeds to capabilities of screen in blue/green tones. I could oversaturate it without seeing it on-screen but only when I print.....

[attachment=21536:Schermaf...23.58.28.png]

[loonsailor]

I don't have a professional booth, it's a piece of DIY, I bought 2 fluorecent tubes : Philips Graphica Pro 950, 36Watt, around 10 euro's each. easy to get here in the netherlands. Overhere are a few companies selling also a brand called ' truelight'  they sell them as tubes but also these cfl's that fit in a fixture for a normal bulb.

You screen/print match: what kind of monitor do you have? could it be that the gamut of your monitor is smaller then of you printer? So you can't see that kind of color on you screen?

I agree that it looks like a viewing light problem.  I use a gooseneck fixture with a Solux bulb https://www.solux.net/cgi-bin/tlistore/clampon.html.  The Solux bulbs are made specifically for critical viewing, galleries, etc. (they are used in the Louvre and many other museums) and they aren't expensive.  The only downside is that they have a MR-16 base, and I've found it hard to find fixtures that fit that base except for track lights.  The goosenecks that Solux sells are fine, though.

[JeffKohn]

I agree it's partly viewing light temp, but also think your "native" white point display calibration could be part of the issue. I realize that's the best option for some LCD's that don't calibrate well when you try to force the white point. But your display's white point is going to be pretty cool in comparison to the print even if you get some 5K viewing lights. Do you know what the native white point of your display is?

[Tony B.]

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts.

I doubt the color is out of gamut of my monitor as I can adjust the image on my monitor to match the print (Samsung syncmaster 213t)

last night I tried many different white points on my monitor calibration from 4000k to 7000k and to me there was not much difference from my previously posted images.

at one time I had the rocks match ok but monitor luminance was down to 23cdm2 according to my i1.

I have some cfl's rated for 5500k that gave me headaches so I removed them.  I installed them again with not much difference, the i1 shows them at 3900k.

I also guess I should have posted in the color management section.

I will work on trying some different lighting to see if I can match better.

But, will it matter?  If I get lighting that matches my print to monitor better in my computer room it will just be off as soon as its carried out.

Can the profiles be made for my lighting (most peoples general lighting?) either by editing them or changing one of the options prior to building profile?

I would even be fine with having a preset that is applied to my adjusted image prior to print to reduce the issue on the monitor so the print will look like the pre preset applied image.  I just do not know what to adjust to make the preset (white balance/hue/saturation) this is where my color knowledge is limited.

I would like them to match with my lighting as I do not sell my prints, just a hobby at this time.

Thanks again

Tony B.