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Author Topic: Season Finale of "House" shot on Canon 5DII  (Read 18749 times)

Graeme Nattress

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Season Finale of "House" shot on Canon 5DII
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2010, 01:11:51 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
Feppe, I know films get shot digitaly. I'm saying, where is the push coming from? I see a push coming from ad agencies and small production companies like mine, shooting commercials, music videos, in store POS displays, etc. There is no push to shoot digitaly in features, unless the director and DP want to.

That's cool if you disagree, and I know you cited to Wikipedia and all, but from where I sit, there is no burning desire by anyone making features to give up 35 film.

For some, they actually appreciate the aesthetic we provide to them in the image: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44152 and for others, they just don't like the grain of film, finding that it pulls them out of the story, rather than bringing them deeper into it.

But really, we're not out to kill film, or diminish the aesthetic of film, but to just do the best digital we can.

Graeme
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BJL

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Season Finale of "House" shot on Canon 5DII
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2010, 01:47:34 pm »

Thanks for the reply Graeme: I was hoping for feedback from someone who actually knows what he is talking about.

Quote from: Graeme Nattress
When you line skip, it's like having a very low fill factor in that direction, and that actually increases the sensor part of the MTF, making aliasing stronger, meaning you don't just need an OLPF set to the new pixel pitch, but a stronger one even still. ... Instead of line skipping, the solution is larger pixels.
Agreed that line-skipping is still a compromise resulting from trying to adapt a sensor designed for one purpose (stills) to the different needs of another (motion). And it might be that quite soon (maybe as soon as the forthcoming Sony APS-C HD EXMOR sensor?), some "primarily stills with video on the side" camera sensors will read all photosites and use suitable binning in video mode.

I was only thinking about sensors that cannot read all photosites at video frame rates, and speculating on how with them one could mitigate the problems that arise with the current combination of (a.) reading only every third line and (b.) using an OLPF deigned for the needs of the higher still resolution.
Do you think I right or wrong that
(a.) reading every second line instead of every third, and
(b.) using a stronger OLPF than in a still camera
could improve the situation, by raising the sampling frequency while lower the maximum frequency present in the sampled signal?
And what about my other idea of
(c.) microlenses extending over the unread lines
Does that not increase the fill factor, and so partially offset the increased MTF and its aliasing effect? (If is is doable at all!)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 01:48:53 pm by BJL »
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Graeme Nattress

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Season Finale of "House" shot on Canon 5DII
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2010, 01:53:06 pm »

Quote from: BJL
Thanks for the reply Graeme: I was hoping for feedback from someone who actually knows what he is talking about.


Agreed that line-skipping is still a compromise resulting from trying to adapt a sensor designed for one purpose (stills) to the different needs of another (motion). And it might be that quite soon (maybe as soon as the forthcoming Sony APS-C HD EXMOR sensor?), some "primarily stills with video on the side" camera sensors will read all photosites and use suitable binning in video mode.

I was only thinking about sensors that cannot read all photosites at video frame rates, and speculating on how with them one could mitigate the problems that arise with the current combination of (a.) reading only every third line and (b.) using an OLPF deigned for the needs of the higher still resolution.
Do you think I right or wrong that
(a.) reading every second line instead of every third, and
(b.) using a stronger OLPF than in a still camera
could improve the situation, by raising the sampling frequency while lower the maximum frequency present in the sampled signal?
And what about my other idea of
(c.) microlenses extending over the unread lines
Does that not increase the fill factor, and so partially offset the increased MTF and its aliasing effect? (If is is doable at all!)

a.) requires a stills sensor that's a bit faster than one that reads every 3rd line. Yes, you'd have to use a different colour filter array pattern, and you'd therefore be limiting it's stills capabilities. End result would be better than they do today for video, worse for stills.
b.) putting a special "extra" OLPF for video would help, but could not eliminate the aliasing without introducing too much blur. Also, would have to be tuned differently for horizontal than vertical.
c.) a swap in array of micro-lenses, if such a thing is possible, would probably help better than b.)

Graeme
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 02:12:59 pm by Graeme Nattress »
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TMARK

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Season Finale of "House" shot on Canon 5DII
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2010, 05:02:52 pm »

Graeme, my point was that, in budgeted features, no one is forcing anyone to shoot digital, its really an aesthetic choice or a choice dictated by practicalities of the production, unlike the tsunami that digital was in the stills world, where every commercial client demanded it almost over night.

I like Red files, I like how smooth they are w/o being sterile, how well they take to being color graded.  I dig it.  I also like grain, because I think images should be like memory and dreams, which are all confused, unreal, soft, etc.  I also like Duras, Proust and Sarah Moon, so there you have it.

 

Quote from: Graeme Nattress
For some, they actually appreciate the aesthetic we provide to them in the image: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44152 and for others, they just don't like the grain of film, finding that it pulls them out of the story, rather than bringing them deeper into it.

But really, we're not out to kill film, or diminish the aesthetic of film, but to just do the best digital we can.

Graeme
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Graeme Nattress

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Season Finale of "House" shot on Canon 5DII
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2010, 06:15:05 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
Graeme, my point was that, in budgeted features, no one is forcing anyone to shoot digital, its really an aesthetic choice or a choice dictated by practicalities of the production, unlike the tsunami that digital was in the stills world, where every commercial client demanded it almost over night.

I like Red files, I like how smooth they are w/o being sterile, how well they take to being color graded.  I dig it.  I also like grain, because I think images should be like memory and dreams, which are all confused, unreal, soft, etc.  I also like Duras, Proust and Sarah Moon, so there you have it.

I've not seen any commercial pressure on features to shoot digitally. Usually it is chosen for aesthetic reasons, or the challenge of the new, or to try something different. I think the commercial pressure on use of film will come from the projection side of things, which will in-turn make shooting film increasingly more expensive. Now, I've seen film projected at it's best, and it's night and day different from what you see in your local cinema, but even on the third run through of watching the print, it was starting to deteriorate.

Graeme
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