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Author Topic: One monitor profile, one image, different results?  (Read 5510 times)

KTMax

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One monitor profile, one image, different results?
« on: April 13, 2010, 11:49:58 pm »

Hello All, I signed up here a long time ago but I've always been in lurking mode.

I've read my eyes to burning red on color management, spaces, profiles etc. Fascinating and complicated! There are a few things I still can't get my head around, one in particular.  

I have a ThinkPad T61 laptop with a 1440 x 900 display running Win XP Pro SP3. The screen is calibrated with Spyder3Pro. My issue & question is only about colors on screen. I shoot images in RAW sRGB > then Process in Lightroom (that uses PhotoPro) > then export to JPG sRGB in 100% quality. I find it very frustrating that a lot of images look a little or very different when viewed in Windows IE or the Window Picture viewer. The Firefox browser supports color management and I pointed Firefox to my monitor profile and images are rendered in identical to colors as Lightroom and Photoshop. This is good.

Getting to my question; the monitor calibration/profile works throughout the system, both for Windows and for 'color aware' apps like Lightroom and - in this case - Firefox. All these apps support sRGB and all are displaying with the same monitor profile. So what causes the different colors viewing one and the same JPG file in Lightroom & Firefox vs, Windows IE and the Window picture viewer???...

The file below is just a low q screenshot but I think it shows the difference. Left the Firefox browser, right Windows Explorer.

I've been cracking my head over this and it drives me nuts... AAaarrgghh!    

Richard.
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AaronPhotog

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One monitor profile, one image, different results?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 01:23:53 am »

Quote from: KTMax
Hello All, I signed up here a long time ago but I've always been in lurking mode.

I've read my eyes to burning red on color management, spaces, profiles etc. Fascinating and complicated! There are a few things I still can't get my head around, one in particular.  

I have a ThinkPad T61 laptop with a 1440 x 900 display running Win XP Pro SP3. The screen is calibrated with Spyder3Pro. My issue & question is only about colors on screen. I shoot images in RAW sRGB > then Process in Lightroom (that uses PhotoPro) > then export to JPG sRGB in 100% quality. I find it very frustrating that a lot of images look a little or very different when viewed in Windows IE or the Window Picture viewer. The Firefox browser supports color management and I pointed Firefox to my monitor profile and images are rendered in identical to colors as Lightroom and Photoshop. This is good.

Getting to my question; the monitor calibration/profile works throughout the system, both for Windows and for 'color aware' apps like Lightroom and - in this case - Firefox. All these apps support sRGB and all are displaying with the same monitor profile. So what causes the different colors viewing one and the same JPG file in Lightroom & Firefox vs, Windows IE and the Window picture viewer???...

The file below is just a low q screenshot but I think it shows the difference. Left the Firefox browser, right Windows Explorer.

I've been cracking my head over this and it drives me nuts... AAaarrgghh!    

Richard.


Richard,

You might find it instructive to take a look at the ICC version 4 readiness test: http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter

Actually, some of the systems that claim to be ICC aware are not set that way as the default, or simply aren't ICC aware at all (like IE).  One browser that was ICC aware has even dropped ICC tag support in their newer version.  As a result, I save my web files as untagged sRGB, rather than to hope that the user's system is ICC aware.  They will read the images as monitor profile at worst, rather than trying to interpret and instead scramble a tagged file.

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to chose from.

Aloha, and good luck.

Aaron
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Jeremy Payne

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One monitor profile, one image, different results?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 02:06:28 am »

Simple ... IE and Windows Viewer aren't respecting the ICC profile in the image and Firefox and LR are.

Since the gamut of the monitor isn't SO different from sRGB, they look similar, but not absolutely identical.

Try the same thing on a wide gamut monitor and they won't even be close.
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KTMax

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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 03:18:12 am »

Aaron and Jeremy,  tnx for your replies!

Yes, I had tried the ICC version test page too. Indeed, viewed in Firefox my system supports ICC v2  and viewed in IE it doesn't support any ICC profile. I have saved my monitor profile as v2 'cos Firefox only supports v2 and not v4 (anymore). So far it makes sense.

So if I understand correctly, an (sRGB) image also contains an ICC profile that is either respected/used by the apps or not. Right?  What does this embedded profile do? My initial thinking was too simple apparently. I thought, Windows is sRGB too so there shouldn't be any problem or difference...

Gosh, I feel I can almost reach the doorhandle!    


Richard.
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AaronPhotog

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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 01:26:23 am »

Quote from: KTMax
Aaron and Jeremy,  tnx for your replies!

Yes, I had tried the ICC version test page too. Indeed, viewed in Firefox my system supports ICC v2  and viewed in IE it doesn't support any ICC profile. I have saved my monitor profile as v2 'cos Firefox only supports v2 and not v4 (anymore). So far it makes sense.

So if I understand correctly, an (sRGB) image also contains an ICC profile that is either respected/used by the apps or not. Right?  What does this embedded profile do? My initial thinking was too simple apparently. I thought, Windows is sRGB too so there shouldn't be any problem or difference...

Gosh, I feel I can almost reach the doorhandle!    


Richard.

Richard,

I don't claim to understand the whole mess, but you're on the right track.  There are so many ways to look at what we mean by sRGB.  If it's a tag on a file, then it presumes a similar interpretation to the application that tagged it.  Most applications other than the ICC aware ones lack that capability, and so they use their best understanding of sRGB, which is what most monitor profiles are.  It's not exactly the same, though.

So, the question should be what are your goals?  Are you trying to make the most color accurate website possible, or give the best impression to your viewers given all the unknowns, or do you have a particular viewer in mind?

Aloha,
Aaron
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milt

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One monitor profile, one image, different results?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2010, 08:36:11 am »

Quote from: AaronPhotog
Richard,

You might find it instructive to take a look at the ICC version 4 readiness test: http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter

Actually, some of the systems that claim to be ICC aware are not set that way as the default, or simply aren't ICC aware at all (like IE).  One browser that was ICC aware has even dropped ICC tag support in their newer version.  As a result, I save my web files as untagged sRGB, rather than to hope that the user's system is ICC aware.  They will read the images as monitor profile at worst, rather than trying to interpret and instead scramble a tagged file.

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to chose from.

Aloha, and good luck.

Aaron

Aaron,

I'm curious about what specifically you think is accomplished by leaving the profile out of sRGB web files (except to save some space in the files).  My impression was that this did not help in any browser and that it actually hurt in Safari.

Richard,

A good way to think about about the profile in a file is that it is a specification of what the RGB numbers in the file MEAN, i.e. exactly what color is implied by (say) R=10, G=20, B=30.  sRGB is just one (widely used) such correspondence between RGB numbers and colors.  A good way to think about a monitor profile is that it is a specification of what RGB numbers should be sent to the screen in order to get various specific colors displayed.  Your monitor will not be exactly sRGB (no monitor is), but is probably reasonably close (unless it is a wide-gamut monitor).  Calibration doesn't change the monitor, it just puts into place a profile that specifies just what the (current) state of the monitor is, so color-aware applications can translate the RGB numbers before sending them to the monitor.  IE doesn't look at that profile, it just blindly sends the sRGB numbers straight to the display.  Firefox looks at that profile and does a translation before sending the RGB numbers to the display.

--Milt--
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AaronPhotog

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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2010, 11:56:18 am »

Quote from: milt
Aaron,

I'm curious about what specifically you think is accomplished by leaving the profile out of sRGB web files (except to save some space in the files).  My impression was that this did not help in any browser and that it actually hurt in Safari.

Richard,

A good way to think about about the profile in a file is that it is a specification of what the RGB numbers in the file MEAN, i.e. exactly what color is implied by (say) R=10, G=20, B=30.  sRGB is just one (widely used) such correspondence between RGB numbers and colors.  A good way to think about a monitor profile is that it is a specification of what RGB numbers should be sent to the screen in order to get various specific colors displayed.  Your monitor will not be exactly sRGB (no monitor is), but is probably reasonably close (unless it is a wide-gamut monitor).  Calibration doesn't change the monitor, it just puts into place a profile that specifies just what the (current) state of the monitor is, so color-aware applications can translate the RGB numbers before sending them to the monitor.  IE doesn't look at that profile, it just blindly sends the sRGB numbers straight to the display.  Firefox looks at that profile and does a translation before sending the RGB numbers to the display.

--Milt--

Richard,

OK - Fair comment.  Now you might want to do some further testing.  Safari is one of the only, if not the only, commonly used ICC aware browsers that I know of at present.  Firefox 3 was, but 4 isn't.  That's why Safari gets worse without the tag.

Now, you need to test whether the opposite is true, i.e. whether the others get worse with the tag, as claimed and demonstrated in the following website tutorial:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_p...Gprofiles.html#

Check it out carefully.  There are some other pages with more detail.

Aloha,

Aaron



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KTMax

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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2010, 06:30:45 am »

Great info all this.

Quote from: milt
Richard,

Calibration doesn't change the monitor, it just puts into place a profile that specifies just what the (current) state of the monitor is, so color-aware applications can translate the RGB numbers before sending them to the monitor.  IE doesn't look at that profile, it just blindly sends the sRGB numbers straight to the display.  Firefox looks at that profile and does a translation before sending the RGB numbers to the display.

--Milt--

The monitor calibration profile is mostly clear. Basically it's a translation table telling the video card how to display correct colors on screen and it works throughout the system. What I don't understand is why some apps (like Firefox) need to be told what & where the monitor profiles is... (LR might use it too, I don't know). The monitor profile is already loaded into the video card during startup of the system. I see the monitor switching to the calibrated settings at startup. IE might not look at the profile but the profile is already active so my thinking is, it doesn't have too. Yet there is a big difference viewing a file in IE or in Firefox. This is what I don't understand...  

This screencapture below shows it. Left Firefox, right IE. The difference in not huge but clearly visible IMO. On some images more than others for some reason.


Related to this; if you're processing for sRGB output, wouldn't it be better to be able to switch to some sRGB mode in LR too? LR always works in ProPhoto. That seems odd as this space is much bigger than sRGB but I'll probably miss a thing or two...


Richard.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 07:15:09 am by KTMax »
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milt

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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2010, 11:43:54 am »

Quote from: KTMax
Great info all this.



The monitor calibration profile is mostly clear. Basically it's a translation table telling the video card how to display correct colors on screen and it works throughout the system. What I don't understand is why some apps (like Firefox) need to be told what & where the monitor profiles is... (LR might use it too, I don't know). The monitor profile is already loaded into the video card during startup of the system. I see the monitor switching to the calibrated settings at startup. IE might not look at the profile but the profile is already active so my thinking is, it doesn't have too. Yet there is a big difference viewing a file in IE or in Firefox. This is what I don't understand...  

This screencapture below shows it. Left Firefox, right IE. The difference in not huge but clearly visible IMO. On some images more than others for some reason.


Related to this; if you're processing for sRGB output, wouldn't it be better to be able to switch to some sRGB mode in LR too? LR always works in ProPhoto. That seems odd as this space is much bigger than sRGB but I'll probably miss a thing or two...


Richard.

Richard,

Your idea that the video card is wholly responsible for the translation is not quite right.  First, not every profile has a video LUT in it.  Second, even when used, the video LUT doesn't do the whole job of translation -- part of the translation still needs to be done by color-aware software.  Third, there are some monitors (like my NEC) that don't want the video card to do any translation because they have internal LUTs.  Fourth, think about the situation where there are two images up on a page, each with different profiles.  Fifth, some systems have bugs around keeping the video card LUT properly loaded.

WRT processing in LR (or any editing program), a very important issue is accumulated computational error, or round-off error, or truncation error, or whatever you want to call it.  You get the most accurate results from ANY kind of sequential computations if you use extra precision during the computations and then round off to final precision when done.  In doing color computations, this useful "extra precision" comes in two flavors, you can use more bits to represent values, and you can use a wider gamut to represent more colors.  If you do a long sequence of adjustments in some editing program and then output in sRGB, you will in general have less accurate results if you do the whole sequence of adjustments in sRGB than if you do the adjustments in ProPhoto and convert to sRGB on output.

--Milt--
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KTMax

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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2010, 01:32:20 am »

Thank you very much Milt, that helps my understanding a lot!

Looking at all these factors, I think I have to put my quest to get RGB output files to look as good as they do in LR on yer average non color managed non calibrated Windows PC to a rest... Gosh what a mess, this color thing...  

The usage of ProPhoto in LR makes perfect sense now. Great. This sounds more or less the same as to do all editing in 16bit mode before converting to 8bit final output.



Another thing I just learned; With the MS Color app for Win XP you can view & compare profiles/spaces graphically on screen. When I compare sRGB with the profile for my monitor made with Spyder3Pro, I see that the monitor isn't even able to render the sRGB colorspace. The screenshot shows this I think...  

To me this looks (very) bad but at the same time images look very good on this screen. Maybe it is time for a laptop with a wider gammut screen. Although, according to the excellent site of Rob Galbraith the ThinkPad T60/T61 that I have are rated among the best laptop screens available.

Richard.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 06:38:01 am by KTMax »
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AaronPhotog

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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2010, 01:15:05 pm »

Quote from: KTMax
[The usage of ProPhoto in LR makes perfect sense now.
Richard.

Richard,

You must remember that ProPhoto is gamma 1.8 while sRGB and Adobe RGB are gamma 2.2.  Yes, you can convert (sort of - depending).

ProPhoto is also much more colorful than sRGB, so a small move can get you into some serious trouble with strong colors, whereas it won't be as likely to happen in sRGB.  If you want to mess with out-of-gamut colors when you convert, that's OK, but if I were working for the best possible web output I'd be inclined to stick with sRGB unless it's necessary to switch out to another color space temporarily to achieve some correction.  For prints, ProPhoto is very popular, but it carries the same risks.

Here's a book I recommend:  Professional Photoshop fifth edition, by Dan Margulis

Aloha,
Aaron
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milt

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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2010, 09:04:54 pm »

Quote from: AaronPhotog
Richard,

You must remember that ProPhoto is gamma 1.8 while sRGB and Adobe RGB are gamma 2.2.  Yes, you can convert (sort of - depending).

ProPhoto is also much more colorful than sRGB, so a small move can get you into some serious trouble with strong colors, whereas it won't be as likely to happen in sRGB.  If you want to mess with out-of-gamut colors when you convert, that's OK, but if I were working for the best possible web output I'd be inclined to stick with sRGB unless it's necessary to switch out to another color space temporarily to achieve some correction.  For prints, ProPhoto is very popular, but it carries the same risks.

Here's a book I recommend:  Professional Photoshop fifth edition, by Dan Margulis

Aloha,
Aaron

I don't see the issue of the differing gamma's as a very big deal.  A conversion is required when converting between color spaces with differing gamma's, sure, and that conversion can cause some loss of accuracy, sure, but that conversion is not any more problematic numerically than any of the adjustments we do all the time, like say increasing color saturation.  In any case, I think the point is miscast here, because LR's internal working space is not actually ProPhoto, but linear ProPhoto, i.e. it has ProPhoto's color primaries but without any gamma correction.  Thus no matter what color space is used in a file, there will a gamma correction computation by LR as it writes that file.

The issue of getting unwanted strong colors by doing adjustments in ProPhoto instead of doing them in sRGB is certainly a theoretical possibility, but it doesn't seem to be a bothersome possibility in practice.  Remember that as you are editing the image, you are not looking at the real ProPhoto image, but at a conversion of it to sRBG or close (assuming you don't have a wide gamut monitor).  To use some metaphors, having more precision "under the hood" is not a bad thing even if you looking at it with rose colored glasses.

A nice thread on the issue of LR's internal representation is here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=41878

On the issue of Dan Margulis, readers of this thread should be aware that he and his methods are controversial in these forums.  Here are some examples:

On LAB: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=41816
On 16-bit: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9069
On sharpening: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=19877

These threads can get rough, put on your foul-weather gear before plunging in.

--Milt--
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Jeremy Payne

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One monitor profile, one image, different results?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2010, 09:43:22 pm »

Quote from: AaronPhotog
You must remember that ProPhoto is gamma 1.8 while sRGB and Adobe RGB are gamma 2.2.

I've never had to remember that - ever ... never mattered at all in any context of my shooting, post-processing of said images or in their printing or output for the web ...

... and ... BTW ... the working space in Lightroom has the same RGB primaries as ProPhoto ... but doesn't have a gamma of 1.8 ... it has the same TRC as sRGB ...

... not that it really matters ...
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AaronPhotog

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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 05:16:32 am »

OK.  I see that Lightroom is basically ProPhoto but with a 1.0 gamma.  I also admit that I am not a Lightroom user.  But, I still stand by my other statements.

I am also aware of the controversy over Dan Margulis.  He is sometimes contrary, but much of the controversy is about what I think of as highly technical, semantic, and trivial.  Where else can someone who is struggling with color mechanics learn the practical knowledge and techniques not readily found elsewhere?  I thank my lucky stars that I found these resources in a sea of far less helpful books (and a few other excellent ones).

It's all in the seeing.

Like you Richard, I've struggled a lot to figure out what on earth to do when processing images for the web.  I've found a few compromises and ways to stay out of real trouble, but it's a real mess, and there's no real solution in sight.  When  people have old Macs at gamma 1.8, PC's at gamma 2.2, some PC's oddly set up at 1.8, newer Macs at 2.2 (but still somehow differently than PC's), many monitors way too bright, many changing appearance drastically at very tiny changes in viewing angle, and with all kinds of bad or missing profiles, color casts, contrast differences, etc., it's a toss of the dice.  I found that different gamma settings on different machines have really made huge differences in the appearance of my images, both black and white and color.  I try for a happy medium using view-soft proof and finding a curve that fits PC's and older Macs satisfactorily as a compromise.  Maybe someone will come out with a tag that forces proper interpretation by any dufus video card and monitor combination.

Aloha,  and thanks for the info,

Aaron

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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 07:25:13 am »

... strangely double-posted ...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 07:28:12 am by Jeremy Payne »
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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2010, 07:27:40 am »

Quote from: AaronPhotog
Firefox 3 was, but 4 isn't.

You are full of very interesting information ...

Can you point me to where I can get a 4.x version of Firefox that isn't ICC-aware? ... I need to add it to my browser testing farm.
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KTMax

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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2010, 10:41:07 am »

This forum is a wealth of knowledge and information, I'm overwhelmed...

Amazing that while I always have a tab open in Firefox with The Luminous Landscape and visit a few times a week for years, I somehow managed to miss or ignore this forum.    

I'll be busy reading the linked topics with my foul-weather gear on...


A little OT but it comes from all this color talk; I'm thinking about a new laptop to replace my 2/3 year old ThinkPad T61. I know Apple is strong in the world of photography and in this community but I work for IBM and hooking up a Mac in IBMs infrastructure is, well... not impossible but challenging to say the least. Besides the OS/GUI, are MacBook Pros' still the last word in screen & graphics quality or did other manufacturers catch up by now?


Thanks all!

Richard.
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AaronPhotog

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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2010, 05:54:28 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
You are full of very interesting information ...

Can you point me to where I can get a 4.x version of Firefox that isn't ICC-aware? ... I need to add it to my browser testing farm.

Woops.  At the risk of further stepping into a quagmire, I had my numbers mixed.  In an earlier post, I said that Firefox ICC awareness is off by default.  That is correct.  I think I may have also been talking about ICC 4 awareness.  The Firefox browser is at version 3.6.2, not 4.  The steps to turn on ICC awareness in Firefox are in the G. Ballard website that is linked in my 4th post.  If you have to turn on ICC awareness via even a few esoteric steps, then to most users it isn't on.

Here are a few other suggestions to combat the mixups out there:  1) Put a small grayscale on your site somewhere so people can look to see if they can make out all the individual steps.  That might convince them that the two factory defaults on their monitors ("stun," and "kill") are too bright for anything.  2) Direct them to Joseph Holmes site, http://www.josephholmes.com/, where he has a page with some numbers in boxes that are supposed to approximate the apparent brightness of the surrounding lined background.  That will get them in the ballpark.  3) There is a test for gamma on Norman Koren's site, http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html.  With that, I verified that what I had expected was right, that a Dell computer and monitor I use at the office were set at gamma 1.8 (like an older Mac).  4) Spend some time on Eric Chan's site, http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/.   That's where I found the Norman Koren site, and several others.


Aloha,

Aaron
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 05:57:10 am by AaronPhotog »
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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2010, 07:21:36 am »

Quote from: AaronPhotog
Woops. ...  In an earlier post, I said that Firefox ICC awareness is off by default.  That is correct.

Nope ... try again ... since 3.5 it has been ON by default ...

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AaronPhotog

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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2010, 12:50:59 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Nope ... try again ... since 3.5 it has been ON by default ...

You said try again.  I did.  I ran the test.  I'll give you half right.  From now on, I'll be more skeptical of what I read, because things change over time.  I'll do the tests myself first.

I invite you all to test your favorite browsers if ICC awareness is of concern to you.  Here's the link to ICC's own test page: http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter


Just open it with any browser.  It's very simple.  Here are the results of my tests of four of the most popular browsers:

1. Internet Explorer 8.0 - not ICC aware (about 75% of the browser market because it comes with Windows)
2. Google Chrome 4 - not ICC aware
3. Firefox 3.6.x - ICC ver. 2 only (not 4)
4. Safari (2010 ver.) - fully ICC aware (ver. 2 and 4)

No, I don't regularly use Safari, nor do I work for Apple.

Aloha,

Aaron
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 04:16:33 am by AaronPhotog »
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