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Anthony Howell

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« on: April 13, 2010, 02:09:51 pm »

Don't get me wrong, very good prints can be pulled off an Epson printer.

But..... if you don't want to throw vast amounts of time and money into ink clogs, purchase an HP or Canon printer. Epson has serious trouble with ink clogs from either low humidity or micro fibers off the paper or general dust and most likely poor engineering..... It will cost you.

I am not a commercial lab. I pull prints or proof prints every 2 to 4 days. AND I am very sorry I didn't go another route one year ago when I purchased a 9900. I have owned 2 other Epson printers in the past and they were good machines. The new ink head created a completely different beast.


hope this saves you some anguish,
Anthony Howell
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jerryrock

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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2010, 02:14:37 pm »

What does your statement have to do with Canon printers? I have not had any ink clogs with Canon printers.
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Gerald J Skrocki

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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 02:23:56 pm »

These types of statements are so ridiculous, though sometimes they can have a touch of truth to them.  I don't know how many 7900 / 9900 Epson has manufactured and or sold, but probably quite a few and when one reads these types of forums generally speaking you read the bad.  I have owned a lot of Epson printers starting with the Photo EX; remember that one?  Then the 1280 and it has continued from there.  I have also owned  a lot of HP and Canon printers and have had almost equal success with them.  When you spend a lot of money on a product you expect trouble free operation and when that doesn't happen you complain, but how often do you buy an item, have it work as advertised and then post all over the internet what a great piece of equipment it is?
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Anthony Howell

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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 02:27:38 pm »

Quote from: jerryrock
What does your statement have to do with Canon printers? I have not had any ink clogs with Canon printers.

Simple, I wish I had bough a canon printer. The Epson is down for the count. Without proof prints workflow stops, prints stop and sales stop. Ouch!

hope your day is going better,
Anthony
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shewhorn

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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2010, 02:57:10 pm »

Quote from: Anthony Howell
Simple, I wish I had bough a canon printer. The Epson is down for the count. Without proof prints workflow stops, prints stop and sales stop. Ouch!

hope your day is going better,
Anthony

I have a Canon IPF6100 and a Canon IPF8300. NONE of this technology is immune to ink clogs. Epson makes fine machines, so does Canon and HP. I don't believe any one of them to be more reliable than the other. It's well known that all of these machines will be more prone clogging in lower humidities. Canon recommends maintaining a humidity of 40% (coincidentally my allergist recommends the same for me :-) ). I have a Venta Airwasher (evaporative humidifier... the other ones that mist will leave a nasty dust) which I use to maintain the humidity. Also you need to leave the machines plugged in and turned on or you have to turn them on periodically so they can stir the ink tanks and clean the heads to prevent them from clogging. Sorry to hear about your issues, it's always frustrating when you spend so much money on a machine but I doubt you'd have had a different experience had you gone with Canon. If the machine stays turned off for an extended period of time in a dry environment (20% to 25% humidity is typical in the winter in New England) then you'll find yourself replacing the heads on the Canon printers at about $510 a pop (and there's two heads).

Cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 02:58:40 pm by shewhorn »
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BobFisher

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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2010, 03:00:46 pm »

I've used numerous Epson printers as well.  The only time I had a problem with ink clogs is when I used non-OEM inks in a couple 1280s.  Other than that, not a problem at all.  Has Epson had some clogging issues in the past?  Yes.  Primarily on their first generation Ultrachrome ink models.  But it wasn't widespread and it did depend on usage conditions.  Leaving the printer sit for longer periods of time was a problem.  With the newer generations of the Ultrachrome inks, this is pretty much a thing of the past but can still happen in isolated instances.  My printing goes in cycles.  I print a ton, then typically don't print for a while - sometimes upwards of 5 or 6 weeks - and when I fire up the printer it puts out beautiful prints just like the last time.  I know a number of people who do similar and they have no problem.

Condemning Epson (or any manufacturer for that matter) because you, specifically, have had a problem is a bit of a chicken little approach.
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mikev1

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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2010, 03:42:49 pm »

Quote from: BobFisher
I've used numerous Epson printers as well.  The only time I had a problem with ink clogs is when I used non-OEM inks in a couple 1280s.  Other than that, not a problem at all.  Has Epson had some clogging issues in the past?  Yes.  Primarily on their first generation Ultrachrome ink models.  But it wasn't widespread and it did depend on usage conditions.  Leaving the printer sit for longer periods of time was a problem.  With the newer generations of the Ultrachrome inks, this is pretty much a thing of the past but can still happen in isolated instances.  My printing goes in cycles.  I print a ton, then typically don't print for a while - sometimes upwards of 5 or 6 weeks - and when I fire up the printer it puts out beautiful prints just like the last time.  I know a number of people who do similar and they have no problem.

Condemning Epson (or any manufacturer for that matter) because you, specifically, have had a problem is a bit of a chicken little approach.

Likewise I could question how you know whether clogging is or isn't widespread and on what usage conditions it depends on?

If the owner of the site can post an article about how wonderful EPSON's service was to one particular individual why can't people complain as well?  I actually prefer to read user opinions that aren't glowing as it gives some insight as to where a product might be less than spectacular.  

And for the record, my experience with the 9900 has been somewhat mixed as has been my experience with EPSON support.  I've just come to accept the machine for what it is.  I do get a fair bit of clogging but it isn't severe enough to cause much down time.

Mike
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Anthony Howell

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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2010, 04:04:37 pm »

Ridiculous & Chicken Little, take the info any way you want.

1) Dropped an additional $200 to $300 in inks this morning trying to clear a clog.

2) No help from Epson tech support, out of warranty. Contact our service tech.

3) Service tech gets to visit for the second time.

4) I live 9 hours from the service tech.

5) This service call is out of my pocket, 1 month out of warranty.

6) Spent double the past year on ink, clearing clogged heads.

7) With sales down over the last year, I had the pleasure to call two new clients and tell them their art work will be delayed.

8) Truth hurts, Epson does make stinkers.


Caveat Emptor
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BobFisher

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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 04:07:18 pm »

How do I know it's widespread or not?  I'm extrapolating from the sample size of user reports I've read and people I've talked with; both positive and negative.  Just like any polling sample there'll be an error factor but it should be within the normal range one would think.  

Where did I say someone can't make a complaint?  Personally I've had very good support from Epson when I've needed it, which hasn't been often.  If you want my opinion on Canon support/service, on the other hand......

There's nothing wrong with making a complaint.  Where I raise a question is condemning Epson in toto and telling everyone else to stay as far away as possible from Epson because they, individually, had a problem.  I have serious issues with Canon service and the quality of a number of their cameras.  I've written about it as it relates to their service standard here in Canada.  I'm sure Michael ® would have very different views of Canon service as would many other people.  I know a number of people in the U.S. who've had nothing but stellar service from Canon in the States.  I don't tell people to stay away from Canon; however.  I relate my experience as my experience.  I relate my concerns about product as my concerns.  People can then make their own decisions based on my experience and the experience of others.  I don't tell people to run as fast as possible in the other direction from Canon as the OP seems to be doing in this case.
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titusbear

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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 04:52:58 pm »

1) @  approx. $85.00 per 220ml - just how much ink did you use to clear your machine?  

2)  Obviously - from your description - an enterprise (i.e. you business depends on it) printer  - and you didn't spring for an extended ( to 3 years) warranty?
    (things I depend on are covered by  'same' or 'next business day' technical support / extended warranties.  (printers /work stations /professional monitors / data back up systems /electrical protection system(s))  - it's the price of being a 'professional'...

3)  a print every 2 to 4 days ?   machines like the 9900 are made to be used... and you don't use them - they require some common sense 'pro-active' strategies...  which you've seemed to missed

4)  if you've spend 'double' on ink the past year (and obviously during that time the machine was under warranty) - why wasn't the issue(s) addressed then (both on the part of Epson and setting up a proper environment for the machine)?

5)  Epson technology is far from being 'a stinker' - and obviously is used to print everything from museum quality photo images to printed LCD screen masks - successfully.

6)  rather than "Caveat Emptor" - maybe you should look at your own operating envelope /work practices / environment before blaming Epson.





Quote from: Anthony Howell
Ridiculous & Chicken Little, take the info any way you want.

1) Dropped an additional $200 to $300 in inks this morning trying to clear a clog.

2) No help from Epson tech support, out of warranty. Contact our service tech.

3) Service tech gets to visit for the second time.

4) I live 9 hours from the service tech.

5) This service call is out of my pocket, 1 month out of warranty.

6) Spent double the past year on ink, clearing clogged heads.

7) With sales down over the last year, I had the pleasure to call two new clients and tell them their art work will be delayed.

8) Truth hurts, Epson does make stinkers.


Caveat Emptor
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Gemmtech

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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 05:17:14 pm »

8) Truth hurts, Epson does make stinkers.

Every company no matter the type of product will produce a stinker, probably even Rolls Royce, Ferrari and Lamborghini.
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 06:05:53 pm »

Quote from: jerryrock
What does your statement have to do with Canon printers? I have not had any ink clogs with Canon printers.
I see this all the time, and it is so misleading.  You have had clogs.  There is no chance of 0 clogs in a Canon printer over a period of time.  The technology difference means you just aren't aware of them, and won't be until the head needs replaced because there are no longer any spare nozzles.

the Canon consumes far more ink over time than most are aware ... for optimum use you leave the machine 24/7  which takes 2-3 ml of ink per day constantly spitting out, and it will fire up a cleaning cycle, sometimes when you aren't even around.  If you turn it off and on instead of leaving it on, it will trigger far more aggressive cleaning cycles and more often., it will dump some ink to clean when you turn it on. I also know a couple of Canon users that had to spend $1200 to replace their heads in only about 18 months, guessing their costs with perhaps less ink but new heads might be more than an Epson.

Don't get me wrong, nothing against Canon.  i like their printers, and am anxious to test out the new 6350 which appears may actually get me  gradations, gloss differential, and bronzing that at least comes close to the new Epsons.

But they all clog and can have issues with clogging. Unfortunately it appears all of the new technology of the 79/9900's hasn't lived up to the hype - the issue appears to be missing nozzles and not clogs. I can sympathize with the OP's situation, I have fought this for a long time now and have some customers who also have issues, but there are some simple steps that have been well discussed to make this very manageable, such as manual nozzles checks and service mode cleans which consume far less ink.
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Scott Martin

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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 06:29:32 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
the Canon consumes far more ink over time than most are aware ... for optimum use you leave the machine 24/7 which takes 2-3 ml of ink per day constantly spitting out, and it will fire up a cleaning cycle, sometimes when you aren't even around.
The newer firmware versions have made the Canon printers insanely frugal on ink. If left on 24/7 it's unlikely that you'll loose as much as 3ml in a month. They are much smarter about detecting nozzles before cleaning and don't clean nearly as much as they used to with earier firmware versions. My 16x20 night prints rarely use as much as 3ml either. All around ink frugality (and print head longevity) have improved dramatically.

I think the OP's point had more to do with the fact that the end user isn't bothered with having to think about cleaning because HP and Canon printers do a great job at doing this "under the hood" in a way that's invisible to the user. For years a good policy for any light duty Epson user has been to print a nozzle check on plain paper before every printing session so as to avoid wasting good paper due to clogged nozzles. It's a small annoyance but one that Canon and HP users aren't subjected to.

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Don't get me wrong, nothing against Canon.  i like their printers, and am anxious to test out the new 6350 which appears may actually get me  gradations, gloss differential, and bronzing that at least comes close to the new Epsons.
I'm finding the x300 printers to be superior on all of these points, plus scratch resistance. The BA profiling targets and final gradations are the smoothest I've ever seen. Look for a x300/x900/z3200 comparison from me soon.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 07:46:41 pm by Onsight »
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uaiomex

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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 07:24:20 pm »

Epsons 7880 and 7900 - Advice please.
A good friend of mine just got a 7900 and prints commercially a very low volume. I just got a 7880 and print for myself only, so I can go for days without doing any printing. For 6 years I had a 7600 that never really clogged. I used to wait 4 to 5 days to turn it on, wait for the spitting cycle to finish and then turn it off again. We live in a very humid place. It goes from 60% to 90% RH around the year. Sometimes it goes up to 100%.
So, what's to fix? Just want to know if you think I should expect the same thing with the 7880. Are there any differences with the ink/head technologies?
TIA
Eduardo


Quote from: Onsight
The newer firmware versions have made the Canon printers insanely frugal on ink. If left on 24/7 it's unlikely that you'll loose as much as 3ml in a month. They are much smarter about detecting nozzles before cleaning and don't clean nearly as much as they used to with earier firmware versions. My 16x20 night prints rarely use as much as 3ml either. All around ink frugality (and print head longevity) have improved dramatically.

I think the OP's point had more to do with the fact that the end user isn't bothered with having to think about cleaning because HP and Canon printers do a great job at doing this "under the hood" in a way that's invisible to the user. For years a good policy for any light duty Epson user has been to print a nozzle check on plain paper before every printing session so as to avoid wasting good paper due to clogged nozzles. It's a small annoyance but one that Canon and HP users aren't subjected to.


I'm finding the x300 printers to be superior on all of these points, plus scratch resistance. The BA profiling targets and final gradations are the smoothest I've ever seen. Look for a full x300/x900/z3200 comparison from me soon.
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Scott Martin

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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 07:46:02 pm »

Quote from: uaiomex
We live in a very humid place.
That's a really good thing! (At least as far as printing goes) The new x880 heads have a teflon-like coating and are even less likely to clog than your x600 heads.
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daws

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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 11:01:50 pm »

Quote from: Anthony Howell
Don't get me wrong, very good prints can be pulled off an Epson printer.

But..... if you don't want to throw vast amounts of time and money into ink clogs, purchase an HP or Canon printer. Epson has serious trouble with ink clogs from either low humidity or micro fibers off the paper or general dust and most likely poor engineering..... It will cost you.

I am not a commercial lab. I pull prints or proof prints every 2 to 4 days. AND I am very sorry I didn't go another route one year ago when I purchased a 9900. I have owned 2 other Epson printers in the past and they were good machines. The new ink head created a completely different beast.


hope this saves you some anguish,
Anthony Howell
*sigh* Ahh, the sweet smell of dpreview.

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DeanChriss

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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 08:47:30 am »

Just to chime in here... I've had an Epson 7900 since December 2008 and I do low volume printing. Overall I doubt I print more than the OP, Anthony, but the machine activity has varied between printing numerous prints every day, remaining completely idle (powered off) for up to 3.5 weeks, and making a print or two per week. Like many I experienced annoying random clogs until the November 2009 firmware update. Honestly, I considered them more of a nuisance than a show stopper, and I did not go through loads of ink clearing them. But, since the November 2009 firmware update I've had exactly 2 clogs. The first involved a single cyan nozzle and the other involved several cyan nozzles. I used the maintenance mode CL1 cleaning and used just a few ml of ink total for cleaning in the last 5 months. The bottom line is that I'm very happy with the purchase.

There are other threads here discussing all of this at length, but without getting into all of that, I think Epson's biggest mistake was raising user expectations beyond reality with advertising hype before and during the release of the machines. the advertising led users to think they'd never see a clog, which is just impossible. Added to that was the issue many seemed to have, which appeared to be a lack of ink at the nozzles rather than real clogs, though no one seems to know for sure. That, at least for me, seems to be fixed by the last firmware update. The last clogging problem I had appeared to be "real clogs" since it took two CL1 cycles to clear them. The "fake clogs" always clear immediately with a single CL1.

Every printer manufacturer has their own problems and there's no free lunch. Epson has permanent heads and can be set up and used so that no ink is consumed for cleaning unless there's a nozzle that's not spraying ink. Canon uses some ink periodically to keep heads open, and if a nozzle clogs it's mapped out and a spare used, as Wayne mentioned. You'll never see a clog, but one day you'll get a message telling you that you need to replace the a print head. As I recall there are two at about $600 each, but I'm not sure about those numbers. I don't know which method is cheaper over time, but $1200 in ink would clean a huge number of clogs on the Epson. HP printers seem to be the best where clogging is concerned. They have user replaceable heads (one per each 2 colors if I recall correctly), they clog very infrequently, and replacement heads are relatively cheap. It's just my personal opinion, but if clogging was the biggest factor in a purchasing decision, I'd go with HP.

I'm fairly sure every manufacture turns out a "lemon" once in a while, that no amount of fixing, cleaning, or fussing seems to cure. All you can do to avoid that is cross your fingers. YMMV
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shewhorn

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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 09:48:49 am »

Quote from: DeanChriss
As I recall there are two at about $600 each, but I'm not sure about those numbers. I don't know which method is cheaper over time, but $1200 in ink would clean a huge number of clogs on the Epson.

$600 is the MSRP. I paid $510 per head when replacing them. That was on the x100 series. The MSRP of the heads on the x300 series is $450 per head so I'd expect to pay a little less than that. I don't think that Canon has any advantage over the Epson or vice versa though. Six of one, half dozen of the other. You have to replace the heads which is pricey BUT changing from matte to photo black and back is a lot less with the Canons so to a certain degree it depends on what your needs are. I think initially they're less money. After the rebate I'll have ended up paying $3700 for my IPF8300. What will the total cost of ownership be in the end? There's a few variables involved so I think that depends on one's individual needs. They both make pretty freakin' awesome prints.

Cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 09:50:22 am by shewhorn »
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