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Author Topic: Stitching with view cameras - general question ...  (Read 17353 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2010, 07:39:13 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
The "trouble" with this is that it will allow anyone to produce very high res, high quality panos without spending mega-bucks, and without specialist knowledge.

Hi Dick,

Fortunately, resolution alone doesn't make high quality images/panos. Especially for wide angles of view, dynamic range is also important for a technically good quality. But even more important is the photographer's vision, choice of subject/composition, timing, lighting, etc., etc.

Tools that help to acquire technically good images will help freeing up time to spend on the creative aspects of image creation.

Cheers,
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2010, 08:23:35 am »

Hi,

Programs like Autopano are very good at taking care of colour differences. Light is probably pretty constant between exposures so it's OK to use a single gray card shot. Don't think that a larger format would help on the issue, anyway.

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Could be very useful, when they support the H4D. (Cheap substitute for a Hex-stitch back, which, with a 60 Mpx sensor, would be high enough res for most jobs.)

These systems are obviously limited by the lens, and if the lens/sensor will not resolve bricks at 1km, then the system will not.

...but a D3X with a good lens might produce as good a result ... and taking ¿3 or 10? times as many pictures would not be a problem if it was fully robotic/automatic.

If everybody asks them when they are going to support the H4D, they might move it up the list.

The "trouble" with this is that it will allow anyone to produce very high res, high quality panos without spending mega-bucks, and without specialist knowledge.

Re-edit... most of the pictures are awful (due to variations in light between the exposures) so it seems that it does need luck, or a good day, or specialist skill to produce a good picture. ...it would be nice to have a system which automatically adjusts the colour temperature for individual exposures, but I think that would be impossible with a gray card in each picture!

Using a higher res camera (e.g. H4D-60) would reduce the total time for the stitch, making it easier to get the light the same, and, as there would be fewer pictures, it would be easier to adjust them for consistent colour.
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Dick Roadnight

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2010, 10:02:08 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

Programs like Autopano are very good at taking care of colour differences. Light is probably pretty constant between exposures so it's OK to use a single gray card shot. Don't think that a larger format would help on the issue, anyway.

Best regards
Erik
It seems that the Gigapan systems software is useless, but I suppose you could use their hardware with quality software.

For really good colour matching, the pano software would need to be a plugin to the raw processor, but that would be tooo much to ask, (especially for manufacturer-specific programs like phocus) so you adjust the white balance in each picture, so that the colour of e.g. the sky, building, sea... changes gradually from one side of the picture to the other?
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PaulSchneider

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2010, 10:31:13 am »

guys, ... having said that the advent of Gigapan-systems can be seen as a democratization of high-res photography - are there, in your opinion, still scenarios where a high end view camera setup with a MFDB can produce higher quality imagery than let's say 5D MK II with a gigapan epic pro and a 300mm lens?

For example, take Andreas Gursky's famous picture of the Montparnasse residency in Paris:

http://www.moma.org/interactives/exhibitio...arnasse_pop.jpg

His picture is amazing because of its high-resolution and sheer awesomeness in the eye of the beholder:

http://www.creativepooldesign.de/mood_art/.../gursky_14b.jpg

It is one of my goals to reproduce that image this summer with my newly ordered H4D-60 and a view camera setup from camera (I'm pondering the 43 Schneider XL for that matter); but since I saw this new gigapan head I'm wondering whether one cannot achieve even superior quality (than what I could probably produce with the MFDB-setup) just with a 6000$ setup consisting of a 5D, 300mm and the pan head.

Or are there still reasons why the high-end setup might yield better results? (let's exclude the convenience factor for a sec)



Regards

Paul
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 10:32:21 am by PaulSchneider »
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BernardLanguillier

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2010, 11:27:14 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
It seems that the Gigapan systems software is useless, but I suppose you could use their hardware with quality software.

For really good colour matching, the pano software would need to be a plugin to the raw processor, but that would be tooo much to ask, (especially for manufacturer-specific programs like phocus) so you adjust the white balance in each picture, so that the colour of e.g. the sky, building, sea... changes gradually from one side of the picture to the other?

Not sure whether they support Hassy files, but autopano pro does also support raw files.

Besides nothing prevents you from working in manual more with a fixed white balance when you capture the images with gigapan or any of the other available robotic heads for that matter. Such heads have been available for years, the gigapan is just cheaper.

If you work in manual mode, you will have zero exposure issue. The only potential problem is light fall off in the corner of your lens, so it is always better to use an aperture that minimizes light fall off. I know that my Zeiss 100mm f2.0 has nearly negligible light fall off around f8, which is one of the reasons why it is such a great stitching lens.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2010, 11:38:06 am »

Quote from: PaulSchneider
guys, ... having said that the advent of Gigapan-systems can be seen as a democratization of high-res photography - are there, in your opinion, still scenarios where a high end view camera setup with a MFDB can produce higher quality imagery than let's say 5D MK II with a gigapan epic pro and a 300mm lens?

For example, take Andreas Gursky's famous picture of the Montparnasse residency in Paris:

http://www.moma.org/interactives/exhibitio...arnasse_pop.jpg

His picture is amazing because of its high-resolution and sheer awesomeness in the eye of the beholder:

http://www.creativepooldesign.de/mood_art/.../gursky_14b.jpg

It is one of my goals to reproduce that image this summer with my newly ordered H4D-60 and a view camera setup from camera (I'm pondering the 43 Schneider XL for that matter); but since I saw this new gigapan head I'm wondering whether one cannot achieve even superior quality (than what I could probably produce with the MFDB-setup) just with a 6000$ setup consisting of a 5D, 300mm and the pan head.

Or are there still reasons why the high-end setup might yield better results? (let's exclude the convenience factor for a sec)

You don't need a gigapan to achieve high resolution. Many of my panos done manually are in the 200+ megapixels range. The example below was downsized from 200 megapixel to just 60 megapixels.



It is a high contrast scene that was capture without HDR techniques with a D3x. I suggest checking the dark areas on the right side of the temple that appeared darker to the eye than they are in this rendition. There is hardly any noise.

The link below points to a 60 megapixel version.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlangui...57618032772894/

The gigapan is a cheap option, but people serious about really high res panos have been using devices like the claus rodeon head for quite a few years. http://www.dr-clauss.de/VRStationST_EN.htm

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2010, 12:44:14 pm »

Hi,

I seldom feel the need of doing much, just relying on Autopano Pro. Don't really have a lot of panos on the web.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.ph...a-and-stitching

This one is a bit extreme, shot with a Sigma 12-24/4.5-5.6 from free hand.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.ph...s-quick-a-dirty

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
It seems that the Gigapan systems software is useless, but I suppose you could use their hardware with quality software.

For really good colour matching, the pano software would need to be a plugin to the raw processor, but that would be tooo much to ask, (especially for manufacturer-specific programs like phocus) so you adjust the white balance in each picture, so that the colour of e.g. the sky, building, sea... changes gradually from one side of the picture to the other?
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PaulSchneider

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2010, 03:14:46 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
You don't need a gigapan to achieve high resolution. Many of my panos done manually are in the 200+ megapixels range. The example below was downsized from 200 megapixel to just 60 megapixels.



It is a high contrast scene that was capture without HDR techniques with a D3x. I suggest checking the dark areas on the right side of the temple that appeared darker to the eye than they are in this rendition. There is hardly any noise.

The link below points to a 60 megapixel version.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlangui...57618032772894/

The gigapan is a cheap option, but people serious about really high res panos have been using devices like the claus rodeon head for quite a few years. http://www.dr-clauss.de/VRStationST_EN.htm

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, what do you mean bay manually? You just stood there and made different exposures, trying to make them overlap by turning your body, without tripod? I must admit, the image looks great! What focal length is it? I Imagine doing multi-row panorams is difficult this way??

And to conclude, is there any image-quality advantage anymore in using a MFDB-system or are you basically saying a D3x, a long lens, a pan-head (good hands) is all one needs today?

Regards

Paul
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 03:18:27 pm by PaulSchneider »
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2010, 03:32:33 pm »

Hi,

Bernard makes great pictures. He is also very good at the technical stuff and a great ambassador for Nikon. That said, achieving good results with panos is actually quite easy. Achieving excellence, like Bernard's work, may take some more effort.

The image here is http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/multimed...dafoss_720p.mov actually my second "pano", I really hooked up on that technique since than.

Best regards
Erik





Quote from: PaulSchneider
Bernard, what do you mean bay manually? You just stood there and made different exposures, trying to make them overlap by turning your body, without tripod? I must admit, the image looks great! What focal length is it? I Imagine doing multi-row panorams is difficult this way??

And to conclude, is there any image-quality advantage anymore in using a MFDB-system or are you basically saying a D3x, a long lens, a pan-head (good hands) is all one needs today?

Regards

Paul
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BernardLanguillier

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2010, 05:04:31 pm »

Quote from: PaulSchneider
Bernard, what do you mean bay manually? You just stood there and made different exposures, trying to make them overlap by turning your body, without tripod? I must admit, the image looks great! What focal length is it? I Imagine doing multi-row panorams is difficult this way??

And to conclude, is there any image-quality advantage anymore in using a MFDB-system or are you basically saying a D3x, a long lens, a pan-head (good hands) is all one needs today?

Paul,

I used a spherical pano head from really right stuff to capture this image. Capturing a 200 megapixel image like this one with a 20+ megapixel DSLR takes perhaps 2 mins at most.

The result will be perfect if:

1. you locate your lens at its nodal point and use a spherical pano head enabling this (like the RRS I am using)
2. the subject is perfectly static
3. you use a good pano software like PTgui or Autopano pro/giga

If the subject is not perfectly static (wind, people, clouds, water,...) then you need to somehow blend the images smartly to make sure that the movement in the scene does not result in any discontinuity in the final image. Most softwares do this more or less automatically if the characteristic size of the subject is not too large relative to the total image. So it works overall very well for landscapes and large city scapes, but you sometimes have problems with moving foregrounds like grass... this problem will be present with both cyliundrical stitching and flat stitching by the way.

There is little doubt that it will be much easier and relaxing to take a single 60 megapixel image with a H4D60/P65+ compared to doing stitching though. I am not willing to spend that kind of money for a camera and find stitching to be fun for my applications, but I would probably see things differently as a working pro.

More samples here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlangui...57600916381270/

Regarding your D3x vs MFDB question, there have been many dicussions around here. The general agreement is that:

- backs have better pixel quality thanks to the lack of AA filter,
- backs have still more DR, but the gap has been reduced significantly with the top DSLRs like the D3x.

Cheers,
Bernard

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2010, 05:18:51 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Not sure whether they support Hassy files, but autopano pro does also support raw files.

Besides nothing prevents you from working in manual more with a fixed white balance when you capture the images with gigapan or any of the other available robotic heads for that matter. Such heads have been available for years, the gigapan is just cheaper.

If you work in manual mode, you will have zero exposure issue. The only potential problem is light fall off in the corner of your lens, so it is always better to use an aperture that minimizes light fall off. I know that my Zeiss 100mm f2.0 has nearly negligible light fall off around f8, which is one of the reasons why it is such a great stitching lens.

Cheers,
Bernard
Thanks, Bernard.
...as you said, one of the nice things about 2 axis panos is that you only use the best bit of the lens, and Phocus is supposed to eliminate any trace of vignetting (with Hasselblad  lenses).

The white balance problem is that, when the sun goes behind a cloud, you go from "daylight" to "cloudy", and it screws up the colour temperature even if you compensate the exposure.

I think my 10 kg Manfrotto tripod with #400 geared head, and the geared rear rise & fall of the Sinar P2/3 for the vertical (row adjustment) adjustment, and two rail clamps and a base board allowing me to use the monorail for nodal point adjustment, and apo-digitars should allow me to do three row cylinder panos without spending any extra cash?
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Don Libby

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Stitching with view cameras - general question ...
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2010, 07:05:22 pm »

I had and used a RRS “Ultimate Omni-Pivot Package” first while shooting 35mm landscape then my Mamiya AFD after I switched to medium format.  While I got get images I nevertheless always had large portions of the stitched images lacking detail and/or pixels.  The images were large enough to crop out the offending areas and still achieve a large enough image with the detail I wanted.  Then I moved to a technical camera.

I’ve been shooting with a Cambo WRS/P45+ combination for close to two years now and remain constantly amazed with the total image available to me after stitching.  I can ‘flat stitch” using the movements of the P45+ around the image circle and if I’m rock solid level end up with a stitched image that has way more usable footprint than anything I ever achieved using the RRS setup.

Almost anyone can take a 2-shot panorama handheld and get a good result – (hell, I’ve done them) likewise just about anyone can get a great stitched image using gear by RRS or similar so long as you take your time in setting everything up.  Having experience in the above two concepts I feel safe to say that at least for me – I can get constant great results from using the movements of my Cambo; again so long as I take the time in the beginning to properly set everything up.

This has all been from my own personal experience in shooting landscape panoramas and stitching 2 to 6 captures to achieve the 1 image.

Don
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