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Author Topic: Profile UV or Not?  (Read 4028 times)

Mark Paulson

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Profile UV or Not?
« on: April 04, 2010, 08:44:18 pm »

Since I just received my isis on Thursday and I cannot read targets with ColorPort, I have been using Measure Tool and selecting the option which reads the patches twice with UV on and off. I have save both reading sets of readings in LAB. I am going to use Monaco Profiler to build my profiles. My question is do I use the UV cut version or the no cut version? I didn't have this choice with i1 Match previously. I created two test profiles and compared them in Color Think and the Gamut plot is almost identical. Since I am a newbie with Monaco, some guidance would be helpful.
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Mark Paulson

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Profile UV or Not?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 07:17:19 am »

Anyone?
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Czornyj

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Profile UV or Not?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 07:25:02 am »

Quote from: MarkPaulson
Anyone?

Average both measurements?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 07:29:25 am by Czornyj »
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digitaldog

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Profile UV or Not?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 11:53:44 am »

Quote from: MarkPaulson
Since I just received my isis on Thursday and I cannot read targets with ColorPort, I have been using Measure Tool and selecting the option which reads the patches twice with UV on and off. I have save both reading sets of readings in LAB. I am going to use Monaco Profiler to build my profiles. My question is do I use the UV cut version or the no cut version? I didn't have this choice with i1 Match previously. I created two test profiles and compared them in Color Think and the Gamut plot is almost identical. Since I am a newbie with Monaco, some guidance would be helpful.

First why can’t you use ColorPort, I’m actually measuring with an iSis as I write this.

As to which to use, it depends. I’d build a profile both ways and evaluate the output (not a gamut plot or something like that). There’s no hard and fast rule here.
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Mark Paulson

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Profile UV or Not?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 12:40:46 pm »

Quote from: digitaldog
First why can’t you use ColorPort, I’m actually measuring with an iSis as I write this.

As to which to use, it depends. I’d build a profile both ways and evaluate the output (not a gamut plot or something like that). There’s no hard and fast rule here.


Andy, thanks for the reply. The reason I am not using ColorPort is that my unit is defective and will not work with ColorPort but will with Measure Tool. X-rite is sending me a new unit. I assume from your evaluation statement you mean print? I did look at both profiles in Color Think Pro and both are almost identical in the 3D graph. I then compared measurement file in Color Think and all DE measurements are less than 2 with the highest in the white, grays and light colors where I would expect this to be true and the darker colors almost dead on. I guess the proof will be in the printing. I'm not sure I really understand this UV stuff, in fact I know I don't :-)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 01:03:54 pm by MarkPaulson »
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digitaldog

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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 12:48:03 pm »

Quote from: MarkPaulson
Andy, thanks for the reply. The reason I am not using ColorPort is that mu unit is defective and will not work with ColorPort but will with Measure Tool. X-rite is sending me a new unit. I assume from your evaluation statement you mean print? I did look at both profiles in Color Think Pro and both are almost identical in the 3D graph. I then compared measurement file in Color Think and all DE measurements are less than 2 with the highest in the white, grays and light colors where I would expect this to be true and the darker colors almost dead on. I guess the proof will be in the printing. I'm not sure I really understand this UV stuff., in fact I know I don't :-)

Odd that the unit will work with one software product and not the other. But anyway yes, a print.
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terrywyse

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Profile UV or Not?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 03:24:44 pm »

Quote from: MarkPaulson
Since I just received my isis on Thursday and I cannot read targets with ColorPort, I have been using Measure Tool and selecting the option which reads the patches twice with UV on and off. I have save both reading sets of readings in LAB. I am going to use Monaco Profiler to build my profiles. My question is do I use the UV cut version or the no cut version? I didn't have this choice with i1 Match previously. I created two test profiles and compared them in Color Think and the Gamut plot is almost identical. Since I am a newbie with Monaco, some guidance would be helpful.


You're not likely going to see a difference in the gamut plots between UV-include and UV-exclude measurements/profiles. It has little effect on the gamut boundaries. Where you should notice a difference is in the media white point. I would suggest viewing it as a 2D a/b plot and, if you have the option, view the primary and secondary plot points and look at the center of that plot between the two different profiles. Depending on the amount of UV brighteners ("OBAs") in the paper, you'll likely see a shift along the b* axis.

As far as filtration to use, it "depends".....depends on the amount of OBAs in the paper to start with. I use an iSis myself and, frankly, I get the best results with the iSis when I take BOTH sets of measurements and average the results. In my opinion, the UV-cut filtration goes to far in "neutralizing" the effects of OBAs. You DO see the effects after all so it's not a good idea to eliminate the UV visual effect entirely. On the other hand, no filtration at all tends to overstate the effect of OBAs (paper appears to 'blue" to the spectro so the profile tries to compensate but the result is too "yellow" in the final print) so that's equally not so good. Taking both sets of filtration data and averaging them is made easy with PM5 Measure Tool since you can request both sets of data right from the get-go. When it's finished measuring, simply leave both sets of measurements open and immediately go to the Averaging tool and select the measurement data from the pop-up. I'll usually go so far as to save all three sets of measurements (no filter, UV-cut and no Filter+UV-cut average) and profile all three and print the result. Virtually the only thing you need to look at would be a neutral gray ramp and check it for visual neutrality. The effect of the filters on color, especially saturated colors, is so minimal as to mostly not be worth considering. It should be noted that, while you CAN get both sets of measurements using ColorPort, you need to measure the chart twice, changing the filter settings between each pass through the iSis. When importing the measurement data into MonacoPROFILER, you simply need to select the "average" function and import both sets of data. There's a LITTLE more to it than that but that's the short version.

I should note that if you're using a RIP product that offers linearization....or plan to get RIP software in the future....it's almost a universal recommendation to use UV-cut filtration for linearization. Profiling on the other hand, use whatever works best.

Regards,
Terry
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Terry Wyse
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digitaldog

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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 05:45:26 pm »

Quote from: terrywyse
I get the best results with the iSis when I take BOTH sets of measurements and average the results. In my opinion, the UV-cut filtration goes to far in "neutralizing" the effects of OBAs.

Or since you have an iSis, use the OBC software which is now included. You get a great deal of control using this technique and its based on the all important viewing conditions.
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Mark Paulson

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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2010, 05:44:15 pm »

Quote from: digitaldog
Or since you have an iSis, use the OBC software which is now included. You get a great deal of control using this technique and its based on the all important viewing conditions.
I print mainly for family and friends so I have no idea what the viewing conditions will be. Id there kind of an "all round" setting to work best. I would guess that most prints will be viewed under tungsten or daylight. I find very little florescent light in residences other than the kitchen maybe.
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Mark Paulson

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Profile UV or Not?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2010, 05:47:17 pm »

Quote from: terrywyse
You're not likely going to see a difference in the gamut plots between UV-include and UV-exclude measurements/profiles. It has little effect on the gamut boundaries. Where you should notice a difference is in the media white point. I would suggest viewing it as a 2D a/b plot and, if you have the option, view the primary and secondary plot points and look at the center of that plot between the two different profiles. Depending on the amount of UV brighteners ("OBAs") in the paper, you'll likely see a shift along the b* axis.

As far as filtration to use, it "depends".....depends on the amount of OBAs in the paper to start with. I use an iSis myself and, frankly, I get the best results with the iSis when I take BOTH sets of measurements and average the results. In my opinion, the UV-cut filtration goes to far in "neutralizing" the effects of OBAs. You DO see the effects after all so it's not a good idea to eliminate the UV visual effect entirely. On the other hand, no filtration at all tends to overstate the effect of OBAs (paper appears to 'blue" to the spectro so the profile tries to compensate but the result is too "yellow" in the final print) so that's equally not so good. Taking both sets of filtration data and averaging them is made easy with PM5 Measure Tool since you can request both sets of data right from the get-go. When it's finished measuring, simply leave both sets of measurements open and immediately go to the Averaging tool and select the measurement data from the pop-up. I'll usually go so far as to save all three sets of measurements (no filter, UV-cut and no Filter+UV-cut average) and profile all three and print the result. Virtually the only thing you need to look at would be a neutral gray ramp and check it for visual neutrality. The effect of the filters on color, especially saturated colors, is so minimal as to mostly not be worth considering. It should be noted that, while you CAN get both sets of measurements using ColorPort, you need to measure the chart twice, changing the filter settings between each pass through the iSis. When importing the measurement data into MonacoPROFILER, you simply need to select the "average" function and import both sets of data. There's a LITTLE more to it than that but that's the short version.

I should note that if you're using a RIP product that offers linearization....or plan to get RIP software in the future....it's almost a universal recommendation to use UV-cut filtration for linearization. Profiling on the other hand, use whatever works best.

Regards,
Terry

Terry,

Thanks for all the info. I will try the averaging as soon as I get a machine that is not defective. I played with averaging a little before my machine went south.
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