flagrant copyright invasion!!

[marc gerritsen]

My publisher just told me that my 650 page book "Taiwan Mod" that came out about 6 month ago
is now being copied and sold on the streets of Shanghai in two pirated volumes and of course for a lot less then a legal copy.
My first reaction was dismay, immediately followed by a strange sense of pride that my book was good enough to be copied!
Isn't copying or imitation the highest form of flattery?
It is so hard in this part of the world to find a lot of respect for copyright and i have send out many messages to
newspapers, magazines, clients to make them aware of all the issues, can't even begin to think about sueing
it's more like i am trying to educate one person at a time, well 1 billion chinese is a lot of people!!
cheers
Marc

[Steve Weldon]

I suggest you educate yourself other than the whole China. Please, please just tell your tragical story in a well-educated way so that 1.3 billion Chinese People can be convinced.

Cheers,

Xin

Hi Xin -

I've lived in Asia for 23+ years.  As you might know each Asian country is unique in certain ways, and many share many things.  However, its fairly common knowledge that books, especially expensive text books, trade manuals, and popular novels and books commonly found in book stores are copied on a grand scale.  Here in Thailand, once away from tourists centers, it's more difficult to find legit copies of books and software than pirated/copied versions.

Some education:  The pay of the average worker in Thailand and China makes most western based software/media out of reach of the common man.  Computers for instance are most often sold without an operating system.  To become a licensed dealer is difficult, and what licensed dealers there are carry a very limited selection.  In comparison you can walk into any IT center and there will be table after table of illegal software/media sellers who will show you catalogs of tens of thousands of the most popular titles.  You make your selection and pay (about $3 per DVD is the cost here, the actual movie/software matters not, it's sold by "per DVD" at 100 baht per), a runner takes off or a phone call is made, and 10-15 minutes later someone you don't know hands you a plastic bag with your software/media.  Once I spent 5 days trying to track down a licensed copy of Windows 7 x64 Ultimate.  It was available at virtually hundreds of th illegal software vendors I walked past while searching for a licensed copy.  I ended up ordering it online.

I could go on and on with this.. but its a fact of life that any sort of intellectual property is by far more easily found and purchased in illegal/pirated form than licensed form.  And you talk about how much they can make copying a book?  Where the average monthly pay is barely over $100 USD's they don't need to take much, and you can almost always tell it's a copied book by the very thin/cheap paper and covers, smaller sizes, poor bindings, its obvious to a blind man.

China, Pakistan and many other ME countries, Thailand, they're all nearly identical when it comes to this subject.  I wish it weren't true, and I wish all countries did such things properly, but every country has their issues..

[RazorTM]

Where the average monthly pay is barely over $100 USD?

In Shanghai? Thanks for your knowledge toward China.

He did say, "Here in Thailand," in the first part of his post.

[Steve Weldon]

Hi Steve,

A $3 DVD priated makes sense. Windows XP/Vsita or Movie has many audience. But We are talking about a 650-page large format book full of pictures. Please face the fact. Even at your vivid imagenation, who wants to buy a 'very thin/cheap paper and covers, smaller sizes, poor bindings, its obvious to a blind man.' book of a title of Internal Design in Shanghai? Have you ever been in Shanghai to see the local book store? Or just sit at your desk to figure out the world?

I just cannot image how you can servive in Tailand who has no Intellectual Property ideas? May be you are sent by the GOD to jusitfy that.

Buy the way, I have five books here in China. I have seen none Pirated Version at all.

Cheers,

Chen

Chen -  You are being more than insulting.  Sorry, but the bookstores are full of such books and I see them every trip out to the mall or wherever.  I don't understand why you would want to argue about what is common knowledge to anyone who lives in these areas.

I'm happy for you that your books haven't been pirated, but we are talking books/media in demand..

[marc gerritsen]

1, How can you tell they are pirated versions?
2, For a 650 pages book, it is not cheap (the printing cost and the sale price) even if it is pirated version. How many people out of the 1 Billion Chinese People will buy your book or those TWO Pirated Versions? 1000 copies? 2000 copies? Is it worth to produce pirated version of your book of ego?
3, If it is a book mainly in text, I can understand a priate version may make some money (ONLY if they are in Simplified Chinese). However for a 650 pages book full of pictures, do you think what is the BEST way to copy it? Buy an IMACON flat scanner to scan those 650 pages from your original book? It seems stupid because of the quality.
4, How can you tell if it is not your pulisher (with your printing factory) who produces those pirated versions so that they can pay you less Royalty?

I suggest you educate yourself other than the whole China. Please, please just tell your tragical story in a well-educated way so that 1.3 billion Chinese People can be convinced.

Cheers,

Xin

Hi Xin
just relax man, I am just telling a little story what happened to my book, believe it or not.
no tragedy has happened at all
and if you take offence by my tongue in cheek remark....... well so be it.
marc

[Steve Weldon]

Where the average monthly pay is barely over $100 USD?

In Shanghai? Thanks for your knowledge toward China.

Chen -

I understand how hard it is to correctly use a 2nd or 3rd language so I'll forgive your misunderstanding.  Let me explain further.

What is the average monthly pay for the average citizen of China?  Here in Thailand it's roughly $100 USD's.  Sure, many of the people working here in Bangkok make more (a teacher with a Ph.D. from America starts at 16,000 baht (about $350) per month at the best university in Thailand (Chulalongkorn) and can rise to 22,000.  Others in private businesses make more, but the point being the pay scale is relatively low in comparison to western countries.  A professor making $350 a month cannot afford to spend $299 for a copy of Windows 7 Ultimate, or $400 for the latest trade journal or textbook.  Workers in rural areas earn much less.  This is one of the major reasons piracy is tolerated to the extent it is and only 'public shows' of enforcement are made to satisfy western countries who complain.  Prices for all consumer goods tend to gravitate towards the low end.  If the price for a DVD is $3 in the rural areas of Isaan, you can bet your life they won't rise much above than in the major metropolitan areas such as Bangkok or Chiang Mai.

Like I said, I've been traveling and working in Asian countries for 23 years.

[Steve Weldon]

Where the average monthly pay is barely over $100 USD?

In Shanghai? Thanks for your knowledge toward China.

Chen -

According to the China Daily Business section the average annual per capita income of a Chinese citizen is 11,759 yuan.  Converted at todays rate that is $1728.45 USD's annually, or $144 USD's per month.  It doesn't seem enough different from Thai citizens to be significant to this discussion.  Like I said, I'm sure workers in the bigger cities have a higher income, but hard goods will tend to gravitate towards the lowest common denominator.

[marc gerritsen]

I cannot believe your story, because your aim seems to educate the WHOLE China, not to claim your economic lose.

my aim is to tell a story as it is
I don't care really they are pirating my book
as I said before i have a strange pride that they do.
so no loss ..... just gain

and again, relax the rethoric.....please!!

[ced]

Marc don't kid yourself.  
If the book is being pirated that is theft of intellectual property and should be dealt with appropriately and is not a compliment but a slap in the face!!
I also can't see how they would go about copying a tome of 650 pages this must be coming from the publisher or the printer (with or without their knowledge).
It is also impossible to educate a nation...

[Dick Roadnight]

Last year end I lost over $5000 for buying a camera from UK. I wired the payment to the seller's bank account at London, but receive nothing. I reported that case to the UK KENT Police, but 3 months have past and my case is still going on.
Should I blame the UK is a nation of crime or scammer? Or should I educate the whole UK? Or write to UK Prime Mimister Brown to protect my Human Rights?

Cheers,

Xin

We in the UK like to imagine that this type of problem only occurs in places like the Far East. There are forum members in the UK who might be able to help, do you have the supplier's address, or have they disappeared?

[feppe]

We in the UK like to imagine that this type of problem only occurs in places like the Far East. There are forum members in the UK who might be able to help, do you have the supplier's address, or have they disappeared?

I've been working on a refund from a UK retailer for a paid 5DII which was never delivered for 15 months (!). I got half of the refund late last year, and they re-started payments in small instalments only last week.

If I knew a year ago what ride they would take me on I would have taken them to small claims court.

[marc gerritsen]

Marc don't kid yourself.  
If the book is being pirated that is theft of intellectual property and should be dealt with appropriately and is not a compliment but a slap in the face!!
I also can't see how they would go about copying a tome of 650 pages this must be coming from the publisher or the printer (with or without their knowledge).
It is also impossible to educate a nation...

It is interesting to see the different cultural reactions from east and west on this issue  
I mentioned it to quite a few friends here, locals and westeners alike, all had a similar reaction.
a quasi tongue in cheek feeling of "oh cool you are being copied"!
and these friends were other photographers or media people!
 
so I think i am not kidding myself, as I know this part of the world reasonably well
it is virtually impossible to follow this up in terms of getting my fair share by going into legal action. Let alone if I want the hassles!
maybe you don't know, but there is a whole industry based on copying books in china with thousand and thousands of people employed in it
just like there is an industry for dvd's, handbags, watches or whatever
the quality of the copying is substandard, basic scanning and reprinting on cheap paper, and distributed by sales people who go
door to door, in this instance the doors of designers (as the book deals with interior design and architecture)

My photos have appeared on covers of magazines without credit or payment and certainly against my wishes.
Clients have submitted photos to books and taken credit for the photos, though contracts explicitly say the contrary.
Legal action is something I wish not to partake in, especially not with my clients, but I will take it up with them
each time and make them understand how it works in the "real" world.

of course I can not educate a nation, but I can certainly make people around me more aware of these issues
you can bring a horse to the water, but........

m

[Steve Weldon]

So we Chinese people are suspicion to scan a 650-page large format book to produce a pirated version with cheap paper, printing and binding just becase we are poor and cannot offer a 650-page book in Shanghai and because the Whole Shanghai are eagerly and thirstily to FEEL the TaiWan MOD?

May I ask you how much monthly salary can make a guy a good guy? $100? $1000?$5000 or $10000? If your salary is $5000, then a $10000 guy is a DOUBLE good guy, so that guy can logically suspect you produce $5000 value around pirated product? So Swiss is better than USA. Then how about Hilter? At that time, Germany is BETTER than the most Europen countries according to  your logic.




Congratulation! Now you can advise the whole world with your seemingly truth
Cheers,

Xin

You seem to be taking this far too personally.  Really, this should be more of a academic discussion and not one of childish insults.

I'm sorry, but its a fact there are entire stores filled with copied books.  It's more than a cottage industry in parts of Asia, its big business.  You must know this at least as well as I do.

And its not about salary levels making anyone a good guy.  It's about how affordable certain products are and how this disparity results in piracy of intellectual property.  This isn't anything new, it's well documented and its been a source of discussion between nations for quite some time.  Google can be quite revealing.  Oh sorry..  forgot..

[Steve Weldon]

Marc don't kid yourself.  
If the book is being pirated that is theft of intellectual property and should be dealt with appropriately and is not a compliment but a slap in the face!!
I also can't see how they would go about copying a tome of 650 pages this must be coming from the publisher or the printer (with or without their knowledge).
It is also impossible to educate a nation...

Its routinely dealt with on all sorts of levels, but I think Marc is right in that its a total waste of time and energy to pursue this on a personal basis.  I do think there is some sort of registry for such things though.

Copying of books is big business and there are small factories set up to make these copies.  Years back I was given a tour of one.  Text books, sheet music for music students, Harry Potter, anything that sells well..

And intellectual property thefts aren't limited to Asia.. its probably no accident some of the biggest illegal torrent sites featuring any movie you desire, PDF's of current magazines, ebooks, audio books, all catering to the west.. its just that over here it's as common as McDonalds (which is common here too..)..

I found this new digital news registry AP is lobbying for interesting. I'd guess we'll see a lot more of this.  And since news carries images an image registry will probably happen.  There are already search engines set up so you can find illegal use of your images.  You upload a small copy and it can scan the net to find all uses.  Its in its infancy, but growing fast.

[feppe]

Google can be quite revealing.  Oh sorry..  forgot..

That was probably said in jest, but anyway: Google moved their servers to Hong Kong, and their web search is not blocked in mainland China as of yesterday.

[Anders_HK]

My publisher just told me that my 650 page book "Taiwan Mod" that came out about 6 month ago
is now being copied and sold on the streets of Shanghai in two pirated volumes and of course for a lot less then a legal copy.
My first reaction was dismay, immediately followed by a strange sense of pride that my book was good enough to be copied!
Isn't copying or imitation the highest form of flattery?
It is so hard in this part of the world to find a lot of respect for copyright and i have send out many messages to
newspapers, magazines, clients to make them aware of all the issues, can't even begin to think about sueing
it's more like i am trying to educate one person at a time, well 1 billion chinese is a lot of people!!
cheers
Marc

Hi Marc,

China and many countries is not USA or Europe, I believe you need consider the actual market at hand. That market is legitimate copies and pirated. The pirated may well work as your advertisement, and those with money and that like your book will buy original.

Above is complete opposite to the west. Asian superstar Jay Chou when in concert in Shanghai the other year had around 60,000 people to his show, with varying price of tickets. I read he insisted on all goods being sold would be on pirated kind, most sold outside.

More, asking a Korean agent of advanced $$ engineering software what they thought of pirated cd of their software, their reply was "good". Simply engineers buy pirated but companies buy licensed. The engineers know how to use the softwares that are pirated, hence those are the ones that companies buy.

It is different here than west. I hope above helps. I am European but lived varying countries near 20 years, near half in Asia, including China with wife Chinese. Now in Malaysia but Hong Kong based.

Hopefully your legitimate copy is very nice print, thus make people want to upgrade! I can understand in Shanghai and China they interest in Taiwan. Be happy, local marketing . Besides ones buy pirated may else never had $ to buy legitimate...

Regards
Anders

[marc gerritsen]

Hi Marc,

China and many countries is not USA or Europe, I believe you need consider the actual market at hand. That market is legitimate copies and pirated. The pirated may well work as your advertisement, and those with money and that like your book will buy original.

Above is complete opposite to the west. Asian superstar Jay Chou when in concert in Shanghai the other year had around 60,000 people to his show, with varying price of tickets. I read he insisted on all goods being sold would be on pirated kind, most sold outside.

More, asking a Korean agent of advanced $$ engineering software what they thought of pirated cd of their software, their reply was "good". Simply engineers buy pirated but companies buy licensed. The engineers know how to use the softwares that are pirated, hence those are the ones that companies buy.

It is different here than west. I hope above helps. I am European but lived varying countries near 20 years, near half in Asia, including China with wife Chinese. Now in Malaysia but Hong Kong based.

Hopefully your legitimate copy is very nice print, thus make people want to upgrade! I can understand in Shanghai and China they interest in Taiwan. Be happy, local marketing . Besides ones buy pirated may else never had $ to buy legitimate...

Regards
Anders

indeed!

the east works differently
it is all about word of mouth, introductions and being known in general.

the idea of the book was more like a thank you note to all the people who helped me and it was to pay homage to the
local design industry. The fee certainly did not cover all the work and time of the steep learning curves.

as my country man Johan Cruiff once said "there is always a positive in negative"
we might not always see it though........

cheers
m

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

I think its the biggest mistake to respond to Xin, because it's very obvious he is changing the topic to satisfy his pride.

It's been happening for sometime now on news sites. Where every topic about China attracts hordes of trolls who make an issue of nothing and attack others (especially Westerners). I find it amazing that someone could bring that to a professional photography forum.

It makes you wonder to where are the Chines going with all of this national pride? The same rout Europeans took in the 20s and 40s of last century?

[marc gerritsen]

I think its the biggest mistake to respond to Xin, because it's very obvious he is changing the topic to satisfy his pride.

It's been happening for sometime now on news sites. Where every topic about China attracts hordes of trolls who make an issue of nothing and attack others (especially Westerners). I find it amazing that someone could bring that to a professional photography forum.

It makes you wonder to where are the Chines going with all of this national pride? The same rout Europeans took in the 20s and 40s of last century?

the biggest mistake would be to not respond to xin
no point of alienating anyone, it would only make their screaming louder
and you can't influence him with your more than valid view

the chinese will be living in the most powerful nation this century
the US will have to play second fiddle just as europe has done for the US

when i am in china the thing that amazes me the most is the scale
of everything and at what speed it all happens.
I had a peak on the shanghai world expo site. it is huge!
they are expecting 20 mill visitors.
I saw about 10 photographers in the short while I was there, and it was still a building site.
so when it opens it will be the most photographed site

some un-retouched images
cheers
m








 

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

the biggest mistake would be to not respond to xin
no point of alienating anyone, it would only make their screaming louder
and you can't influence him with your more than valid view

the chinese will be living in the most powerful nation this century
the US will have to play second fiddle just as europe has done for the US

And that is the root of the problem. For a group of people that are experiencing so much economic growth and enjoy social stability to be so bent on quarreling with people over pride is some very scary stuff. Why so concerned with others views when you are progressing?  

I know that China, relative to other parts of the world, doesn't have a very violent past with it's neighbors, but blind pride can sure change that.

I should stop here because if I debate this more then I would be helping xin change the topic!!