Copyright stickiness

[CBarrett]

My former employer has requested I remove images from my website that I made during my career there.  As I understand it, they retain copyright since I was a compensated employee, and I'll remove the images shortly.  I just want to make sure that I'm not shorting myself any rights as the original author before I concede.

Anyone with experience or wisdom feel free to chime in.

-CB

[TMARK]

Chris,

If your former employer is asserting that the shots are work for hire, they very well might be.  My understanding is that there must be a work for hire agreement, that is written, perhaps in your employment contract.  It sounds like a work for hire situation, but I believe (although nor certain) that there must be a written agreement.  I worked for a Conde Naste-y publication back in the day.  They rammed that work for hire contract in my young, pretty and still soft skinned face, both before I started and after I quit.    

My former employer has requested I remove images from my website that I made during my career there.  As I understand it, they retain copyright since I was a compensated employee, and I'll remove the images shortly.  I just want to make sure that I'm not shorting myself any rights as the original author before I concede.

Anyone with experience or wisdom feel free to chime in.

-CB

[Gary Brown]

My former employer has requested I remove images from my website that I made during my career there.  As I understand it, they retain copyright since I was a compensated employee, and I'll remove the images shortly.  I just want to make sure that I'm not shorting myself any rights as the original author before I concede.

A work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment is generally a "work made for hire," and the employer owns the copyright (in the U.S., anyway; dunno if it's the same everywhere).

Take a look at the U.S. Copyright Office Circular 9, which goes into a lot of detail on figuring out whether something is a work made for hire.

[CBarrett]

A work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment is generally a "work made for hire," and the employer owns the copyright.

That's pretty much what I figured.

Thanks!

Fortunately I have a pile of new portfolio imagery... it's just, you get attached to images you labored for hours over, ya know.

[Rudy Torres]

Cb

As others have sounded off, it sounds like a wok-for-hire situation. Is there no way to get your former employer to understand the images' importance with regards to your career as a photographer?

- Rudy / El Paso, Texas

[fredjeang]

Yes, is there any precision in your contract ?
The legislation here is NOT closed, wich mean that even so, you might have good chance to own the rights in the last instance,
BUT (and it is a biiigggg but (or butt)), it means starting legal procedure...

If you really do not need these pics: for peace of mind, not loosing time and energy I would simply remove them.
end of the problem.
If not, maybe a agreement, depending how is the relation.
If a lot of money could be involved then you may consider the legal procedure as an option, but with no security.

Cheers,

Fred.

[CBarrett]

Yes, is there any precision in your contract ?
The legislation here is NOT closed, wich mean that even so, you might have good chance to own the rights in the last instance,
BUT (and it is a biiigggg but (or butt)), it means starting legal procedure...

If you really do not need these pics: for peace of mind, not loosing time and energy I would simply remove them.
end of the problem.
If not, maybe a agreement, depending how is the relation.
If a lot of money could be involved then you may consider the legal procedure as an option, but with no security.

Cheers,

Fred.

Actually, there never was a contract, but I think I have no interest in pursuing legal actions... I'm too busy shooting!  I have plenty of material for portfolio.

Thanks, Guys.

[fredjeang]

Actually, there never was a contract, but I think I have no interest in pursuing legal actions... I'm too busy shooting!  I have plenty of material for portfolio.

Thanks, Guys.

That's what I would have done.
And it's exciting because you get rid off these, but redo portfolio with fresh stuff,  sometimes  this kind of "obligated stimulations" are welcome, and in the end it is always rewarding.

Cheers,

Fred.

[Schewe]

Actually, there never was a contract...

Actually, if you were an employee, the employer doesn't need a contract stating that the work you produce is "Work For Hire". It is WFH automatically...what would be required for you to retain any ownership in the copyright would be for YOU to have gotten a contract stating you retained some ownership rights and what rights those were. Absent an agreement such as that, the work is no longer yours but the employers...

[fredjeang]

Actually, if you were an employee, the employer doesn't need a contract stating that the work you produce is "Work For Hire". It is WFH automatically...what would be required for you to retain any ownership in the copyright would be for YOU to have gotten a contract stating you retained some ownership rights and what rights those were. Absent an agreement such as that, the work is no longer yours but the employers...

The legislation in the US is more strict than here. I know some cases that even in the situation you described, the photographer has won some rights, but had to go on a juridic process.
In a way, it is more strict but it is also more clear.

Fred.

[TMARK]

Actually, if you were an employee, the employer doesn't need a contract stating that the work you produce is "Work For Hire". It is WFH automatically...what would be required for you to retain any ownership in the copyright would be for YOU to have gotten a contract stating you retained some ownership rights and what rights those were. Absent an agreement such as that, the work is no longer yours but the employers...

That makes sense, as long as there really was an employer/employee situation rather than an indy contractor relationship disguised as employer/employee for purposes of poaching copyrights.  My fomer employer bent over backwards to make us employees as determined by the IRS test, then also made us sign employement contracts with work for hire provisions.

[gwhitf]

My fomer employer bent over backwards to make us employees as determined by the IRS test, then also made us sign employement contracts with work for hire provisions.

By the work you do, you're either an employee or Independent Contractor. Here is the Twenty Questions criteria. Very much open to interpretation. Many photographers use this list to claim that their photo assistants are IC's, rather than employees. It's a big can of worms.

The following are a list of 20 questions the IRS uses to determine if a worker is an independent contractor or employee. The answer of yes to any one of the questions (except #16) may mean the worker is an employee.

   1. Is the worker required to comply with instructions about when, where and how the work is done?

   2. Is the worker provided training that would enable him/her to perform a job in a particular method or manner?

   3. Are the services provided by the worker an integral part of the business' operations?

   4. Must the services be rendered personally?

   5. Does the business hire, supervise, or pay assistants to help the worker on the job?

   6. Is there a continuing relationship between the worker and the person for whom the services are performed?

   7. Does the recipient of the services set the work schedule?

   8. Is the worker required to devote his/her full time to the person he/she performs services for?

   9. Is the work performed at the place of business of the company or at specific places set by the company?

  10. Does the recipient of the services direct the sequence in which the work must be done?

  11. Are regular oral or written reports required to be submitted by the worker?

  12. Is the method of payment hourly, weekly, monthly (as opposed to commission or by the job?)

  13. Are business and/or traveling expenses reimbursed?

  14. Does the company furnish tools and materials used by the worker?

  15. Has the worker failed to invest in equipment or facilities used to provide the services?

  16. Does the arrangement put the person in a position or realizing either a profit or loss on the work?

  17. Does the worker perform services exclusively for the company rather than working for a number of companies at the same time?

  18. Does the worker in fact make his/her services regularly available to the general public?

  19. Is the worker subject to dismissal for reasons other than non-performance of the contract specifications?

  20. Can the worker terminate his/her relationship without incurring a liability for failure to complete the job?

[asf]

When I was an assistant long ago I worked for a couple big name still life photogs. Sometimes they took jobs they felt were beneath them just for the cash, and many times they didn't even come to the studio for the shoot. I shot the job. But I never thought of myself as the photographer on those shoots, no matter how much effort I put into it, nor of the images as mine.

[Nick-T]

As others have sounded off, it sounds like a wok-for-hire situation.

So these are Asian food images?

[marc gerritsen]

My former employer has requested I remove images from my website that I made during my career there.  As I understand it, they retain copyright since I was a compensated employee, and I'll remove the images shortly.  I just want to make sure that I'm not shorting myself any rights as the original author before I concede.

Anyone with experience or wisdom feel free to chime in.

-CB

I tell my employee that everything he shoots while working for me, he can use later in his portfolio either hard copy or in digital form
I think this would be the most sane and common sense way of dealing with it
cheers
marc

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

It might be worth asking the employer if they would be willing to let you keep them on the website provided a credit line is included, perhaps something like "Courtesy of XYZ Corp., the copyright holders," or "Copyright by XYZ Corp. and used with permission." This would turn your website into a source of a bit of free advertising for them, so they might be willing. It wouldn't hurt to ask.

Eric

[CBarrett]

Followup and Closure...

I've just rebuilt my entire Architecture Portfolio using images that I've shot on my own since resigning my position 18 months ago.  And, damn if the work doesn't look really friggin good.  Full steam ahead!

-CB

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

Followup and Closure...

I've just rebuilt my entire Architecture Portfolio using images that I've shot on my own since resigning my position 18 months ago.  And, damn if the work doesn't look really friggin good.  Full steam ahead!

-CB

Your new portfolio looks interesting like it was shot by a different photographer. I guess that goes along with your previous comment about changing your lighting style from dramatic to moody. By the way what happened to the two pictures you wanted to post as example of your lighting?

[Craig Lamson]

Followup and Closure...

I've just rebuilt my entire Architecture Portfolio using images that I've shot on my own since resigning my position 18 months ago.  And, damn if the work doesn't look really friggin good.  Full steam ahead!

-CB

Those are outstanding images Chris.  I'm sure your former employer was not happy to see their sales drop with your leaving.