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Author Topic: MF: 67 vs DB print comparison  (Read 6873 times)

harlemshooter

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« on: March 19, 2010, 08:39:40 pm »

anyone published or completed any comparison with ~20x30 to 30x40 inch prints from drum scanned 67 color neg or tranny film vs a 39mp+ (like the p45+) digital back?  i have seen the 4x5 vs p45 test on this site (which would seem to answer the question in lieu of the larger format), but i've seen so many pleasing prints in person from mf film (take a look at todd hido's work) that i'd like to reference 3 or 4 additional studies just to compare other perspectives of the aesthetic differences.  i have an artistic project coming up for which i regretfully am not able to use my view camera.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 08:49:17 pm by harlemshooter »
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TMARK

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2010, 12:16:08 am »

Quote from: harlemshooter
anyone published or completed any comparison with ~20x30 to 30x40 inch prints from drum scanned 67 color neg or tranny film vs a 39mp+ (like the p45+) digital back?  i have seen the 4x5 vs p45 test on this site (which would seem to answer the question in lieu of the larger format), but i've seen so many pleasing prints in person from mf film (take a look at todd hido's work) that i'd like to reference 3 or 4 additional studies just to compare other perspectives of the aesthetic differences.  i have an artistic project coming up for which i regretfully am not able to use my view camera.

ICP or MOMA might have some Michael Subotsky stuff up.  He shoots a Mamiya 7, Portra 160, 400 and 800.

You might want to ask over at Lamont in midtown.  Their inkjet department printed and scanned a bunch or all of that Annie L. show that was at the Brooklyn Museum a few years back.  I don't know if you cought that show, but her stuff with the RZ, drum scanned and printed big, looked stunning.  

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ErikKaffehr

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2010, 03:00:20 am »

Hi,

I haven't done any such work. Something I looked into was comparing Velvia scanned on an MF film scanner with a 24.5 MP DSLR.

It's published here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.ph...-sony-alpha-900

Lumonious Landscape published this: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml

The DVD is not on sale any longer, I have it and can make a copy if you are interested.

To sum up my experience:

1) Using a DSLR is much simpler. I made one exposure, I used four rolls of Velvia for my test (mostly for assuring correct focus)

2) The DSLR image is much cleaner and easier to work with

3) The DSLR has a lot better DR

4) The MF scanner I used shows a lot of deficiencies in the tested lens.

5) I could make stunning 70x100 prints from my scanned MF/Velvia images. Much better than what could be achieved in a chemical lab.

The reason I only tested one lens is that the others did not have the close focusing ability needed to reproduce the aforementioned LuLa test.

Now, there are other photographers having a different experience.

I have collected some links here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.ph...vs-mfdb-vs-film

The final conclusion would be that 24.6 MP DSLR essentially matches 67 Velvia in resolution and surpasses in image quality, at least in my view. A P45 would yield much better resolution and possibly also image quality than the 24.6 MP DSLR.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: harlemshooter
anyone published or completed any comparison with ~20x30 to 30x40 inch prints from drum scanned 67 color neg or tranny film vs a 39mp+ (like the p45+) digital back?  i have seen the 4x5 vs p45 test on this site (which would seem to answer the question in lieu of the larger format), but i've seen so many pleasing prints in person from mf film (take a look at todd hido's work) that i'd like to reference 3 or 4 additional studies just to compare other perspectives of the aesthetic differences.  i have an artistic project coming up for which i regretfully am not able to use my view camera.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 03:04:52 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2010, 06:02:05 am »

Hi,

This is essentially what I would expect. Some questions:

What about DR and shadow detail? With my scanner I had difficulty with shadow detail.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: KLaban
The following is my own experience, it may or may not be of relevance, make of it what you will.

I've compared V series 6x6 drum scanned Velvia 50 shots to ISO 50 shots made with an H3D11-22 - same subject matter - and was surprised by the results. When the film files were reduced to the same size as the H3D files I fully expected the results to be similar but was surprised at how much cleaner and more detailed the H3D files were. But what really staggered me was when increasing the H3D files to match the size of the drum scans - using nothing more sophisticated than Photoshop Bicubic Smoother – the H3D files were still far superior.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2010, 09:50:02 am »

Thanks!

Quote from: KLaban
Erik

Drum scanning will get the most out of the film, and certainly, will see an increase in dynamic range, but even then, and by comparison, the dynamic range/available shadow detail of Velvia 50 is almost non-existent.
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Dick Roadnight

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2010, 10:28:47 am »

Quote from: KLaban
I should add, I've since sold all of my V series equipment. As much as I loved it there just didn't seem to be any point in keeping it.
I am keeping my V series kit with a view to getting a 39Mpx digital back for it as a back-up or additional system.
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Greg Campbell

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2010, 04:45:48 pm »

Well, you wouldn't shoot Velvia (or any transparency film) for DR.    
A good scanner can squeeze a LOT of DR out of a quality negative film.  I'd like to see a well executed MF vs. *  'shootout' using Ektar100 or a similar film.
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harlemshooter

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2010, 03:19:51 pm »

last night i ran a somewhat disjointed comparison print test with a phase one 645 with 120 macro and p45+ (files uprezzed to ~40x50 inches at 300ppi) and my old mamiya 67 plus new 150mm 3.5 with portra 400 and drum scanned at 360ppi to 60x71 inches - both printed on the epson 11880.

the prints from mf film are significantly better (smoother tones, more aesthetically pleasing color economy, albeit not quite as sharp) in my opinion than those from the p45+.  did i push the p45+ files a bit too far?  they looked decent at 30x40 inches and 360ppi (in that they were sharper than the mf prints with a sort of hyper real quality...yet the color was artificial looking).  i can see why pros want DB for the sake of efficiency but beyond that i'm at a loss.

i am interested in others experience with prints from drum scan vs high end digital backs.  i'm sure a certain 8x10/p65+ landscape artist will have something to say here:-)

cheers.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 03:30:55 pm by harlemshooter »
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Dick Roadnight

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2010, 07:39:34 am »

Quote from: KLaban
You are comparing image degeneration due to over-enlargement. I'll agree that degeneration of film is often more acceptable than that of digital capture, but this has little if anything to do with normal use and practice.
... but what does who call "over enlargement"?

Film got better over the decades, but prints ten times the dimensions of the film was the normal yardstick for fine grain film, giving 22.5 inches for 6cm MF.

For AA-free MF digital I consider 360 original camera pixels per print inch ideal, which gives 18.6 * 24.8 inches for a 6708 * 8956 sensor.

According to these figures, the 60Mpx H4D-60 (or P65+) is equivalent to 645 film... but many people are saying that AA free 60Mpx is equivalent to 10 * 8 film.

I suppose that I am talking about more detail than the naked human eye can resolve, and less degradation/grain/noise than the naked human eye can see... but is this not the right yardstick for "optimum" prints?

People selling 60Mpx cameras (and I) might use these figures to justify investment in 60Mpx kit for 18 * 24" prints, but, since the birth of digital, users and sellers of low-res cameras (and the high-street print shops) have been trying to convince people that res as low as 72 ppi is adequate.

Painters generally think it acceptable for the observer to see brush strokes in a painting, and most photographers (and buyers of photographs) think it acceptable to see some grain (more so than) diffraction|digital noise... but I want pictures to look like the scene seen by the artist.

...but you only need enough res to resolve the detail in the picture, which is why low-res misty scenes are popular with landscape photographers.

...but then, of course you can try to filter out haze, and light up dark corners, and produce pictures better than what the artist saw!
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John R Smith

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2010, 09:38:09 am »

Quote from: KLaban
Unfortunately, and all too often, there is a tendency for photographers to look at the wrong thing.

Would you like to enlarge on that a bit, Keith?
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Dick Roadnight

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2010, 09:56:28 am »

Quote from: KLaban
Unfortunately, and all too often, there is a tendency for photographers to look at image quality rather than the image.
I thought that you were thinking that, all to often, there is a tendency for (professional) photographers looked for profit and not quality.
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John R Smith

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MF: 67 vs DB print comparison
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2010, 10:10:24 am »

Quote from: KLaban
Unfortunately, and all too often, there is a tendency for photographers to look at image quality rather than the image.

That's where I thought you were coming from. I agree 100%. Some of my "best" pictures (the ones I really love and would hate to lose) actually have a pretty poor IQ. We could all quote a zillion examples of that in our own work and that of other photographers too, I would guess. But we sit around and obsess with pixel peeping. It's a bit like guitar players endlessly changing strings or playing with effects settings instead of getting out there and nailing a great riff.

John
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 10:33:44 am by John R Smith »
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