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Author Topic: A View Camera for less than 1000 euros  (Read 11265 times)

fredjeang

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A View Camera for less than 1000 euros
« on: March 18, 2010, 10:25:59 am »

Hi,

I just saw a review in a french magazine of the Fotoman 45 PS.
There are issues according to them, but it seems that it is a serious tool for the price that you can even use handholded.
Did not know anything about Fotoman.
It costs less than 1000 euros.

For the french readers, here is the link: http://www.revoirfoto.com/pr/index.php?lg=...;pg=71&c=13

Cheers,

Fred

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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 12:38:56 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Hi,

I just saw a review in a french magazine of the Fotoman 45 PS.
There are issues according to them, but it seems that it is a serious tool for the price that you can even use handholded.
Did not know anything about Fotoman.
It costs less than 1000 euros.

For the french readers, here is the link: http://www.revoirfoto.com/pr/index.php?lg=...;pg=71&c=13

Cheers,

Fred
Pigeon English translation (blame Google translate):

Fotoman 45PS
With this camera the joint venture (China, American, Canada) has managed a nice feat: making a device 10.5 x12cm all metal, comes with viewfinder and helical focusing for under a thousand Euros. After several weeks of use here is the practical overview of this device in mind 4x5 system
Getting Started
Construction of housing-camera is very sturdy and all metal, focusing development is smooth and ergonomic. Simple and complete, this case is very convenient to use, especially with large angles.
Getting started is very fast, but there are two points that need to be careful, the calibration system of the development and introduction of the chassis or 4x5 Polaroid back. Fotoman chose to sell the rangefinder as an accessory, and yet without this tool calibration focusing development is very laborious, especially if you want to check and adjust the point at various distances. The first thing to do on the range finder is to verify the correspondence of the distance scale. To achieve this Operations the rotary drive centre distances can calibrate the triangulation of mirrors distance indicated on the outskirts of the disk. To begin, turn the disk to indicate distances to infinity, and match the images of a remote object over 100m, turning the central knob. After the point at infinity do the same with a remote, two meters, for example, and check the distance indicated, this gesture can confirm ¿the accuracy of the?  rangefinder and the repetition of movement to match the images at rotating disc distances.  We had no surprises, the linearity is good, and being infinitely just stalling. The only limitation of this small instrument is its rangefinder base is too low (35mm), which does not allow very precise nor a good reproduction of the development. CAUTION Once the rangefinder calibrated care must be taken not to turn the central knob.

Rangefinder and Focusing
The next step is to match the distances displayed by the rangefinder with those on the ring development of the lens and the point gained on the ground glass. To do this, we must detach the ring engraved in meters of the spiral focusing in talking three small screws placed around it. The following operations must be done on foot, full aperture, and with the frosted glass that came with the camera. Having placed the board 5m (for example) a good contrasting target, do the development on the ground glass and then adjust the ring to indicate that distance, tighten screws and check, repeating at 2.5 m . Failure to calibrate the couple rangefinder-focusing at short distances can better see the correlation of development in these areas of focus very critical, especially at full aperture. The burning of distances on the ring is very clean and made in the metal, unfortunately there are too few subdivisions for short distance (2m to 5m). On the other hand, we regret that the distances shown on the rangefinder are not the same as the ring of development.  For example the rangefinder indicates the distance 4m, distance not found on the rings of 75mm and 120mm. Fotoman should correct these small gaps.

The indication of 4m on the rangefinder is not found on the vague distance.

The two focusings ¿helical focusing mounts? are proposed by Fotoman S and LT with racing 8mm and 18mm respectively, in our opinion the standard focusing is very good to 90mm, beyond, the race of 8mm is a bit tight. We would like the manufacturer suggested focusing LT (18mm) from the focal length of 120mm, to allow focusing below 150cm. The current minimum is between 2m and 2.20m with 120mm. Range of objectives and shutters Fotoman says on its website the compatibility of its case with the proposed objectives in different brands. The list is comprehensive, be it valves or focal lengths up to 300mm, this case supports most existing optical.
The viewfinder
The viewfinder is clear and optically corrected, low distortion is not severe, and the level bubble was visible inside, is very practical. A show of hands, the level of the camera can be obtained without leaving the viewfinder to the eye, at least for horizontal shots. Unfortunately in the case of vertical shots, Fotoman has no plans to bubble level in the viewfinder, and we must work at trial. The correspondence of the field in the viewfinder and that the shooting is correct and  If too close eye on the viewfinder slightly enlarges the field.  Practice
To illustrate these pages we have made images with colour films and black and white, with two goals, 75mm f/5.6 and 120mm f / 5.6.  The views were scanned with the Epson V750 Pro. These images, taken handheld with speeds ranging from 30th to 250th, show that even in times of relatively long shutter shake is nonexistent. The central shutter and the shutter flexible minimize the shock very well due to the shutter, f/22, ISO 100 hand held in 4x5 you can!
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2010, 12:48:56 pm »

Everything mechanical I have ever bought from China has fallen apart shortly thereafter, so I'd be careful - especially with a product like this. And I'm skeptical about the "American/Canadian" involvement too. I suspect that is just marketing, distribution sales. Having said that I've never owned or used the product. I just avoid Chinese products altogether now.
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fredjeang

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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010, 01:16:23 pm »

Yes, I also had problems with chinese mechanical and non-mechanical stuffs...
There was a link that I can not find any more from a guy who tested it on the field and it seems to work quite well...but as you said...
there is not a lot of information about this brand so I guess prudence.

Fred.
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archivue

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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2010, 02:29:14 pm »

fotoman ceased production some times ago !

fotoman home page

ok that a 4x5 but no movements... you'd better go with a second hand cambo wide DS !
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fredjeang

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A View Camera for less than 1000 euros
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010, 02:48:32 pm »

Quote from: archivue
fotoman ceased production some times ago !

fotoman home page

ok that a 4x5 but no movements... you'd better go with a second hand cambo wide DS !
Definitely! that was not a very interesting product finaly?

I saw that the cambo was in antarctica in one of the Lu-La trip.

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 08:41:24 pm by fredjeang »
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LiamStrain

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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010, 03:30:27 pm »

Just get a used Monorail. You can frequently get Sinar/Horseman/Cambo/Toyo full models for well under 1000. At least then you get movements.

ChrisJR

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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2010, 04:07:37 pm »

Quote from: Graham Mitchell
Everything mechanical I have ever bought from China has fallen apart shortly thereafter, so I'd be careful - especially with a product like this. And I'm skeptical about the "American/Canadian" involvement too. I suspect that is just marketing, distribution sales. Having said that I've never owned or used the product. I just avoid Chinese products altogether now.
I'll second this about the quality of products from China. I've bought many different products in China for different things and they've always fallen apart. I'll never knowingly buy a product from there again.
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fredjeang

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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 04:18:03 pm »

 Indeed.
Even the simpliest products. Today I ran out of solvant for painting and went to the chinese store, buy a solvant from china and my brush ended in a sort of yellow purée half solid, but it did the job, not well but it did it.


Fred.
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mmurph

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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 08:11:09 pm »

I have two Fotoman 45PS cameras with 3 lens cones in 90mm, 120mm, and 150mm. I also have the spacers required to allow the use of a digital scanning back.

They are extremely well made, solid, simple, but very high performing cameras. Some of the nicest machines I have used to make images. I regard mine as highly as I used to regard my Mamiya 7II.  They are beautiful 4x5 "point and shoot" (hence the P&S) cameras. I fell in love the minute I first held one maybe 8 years ago.

They have solid, machined, aluminum bodies. They are well designed and well made by a true camera afficianado.  

I also have two Cambo Wide cameras (the original, not the DS.) The Fotoman is every bit as well made as the Cambo, with some features that I prefer over the Cambo.

The Fotoman web site is still available. You can look through the models that were made and sold. There is also a Q&A section with more information on the cameras.

http://www.fotomancamera.com/product_list.asp?id=335


This is **NOT** some generic Chinese low end product.

CAD designed and CNC machined to exacting tolerances from solid billets of T6000 series aluminum, Fotoman cameras offer features normally only found in cameras costing much more. Featuring rugged no-nonsense construction, superior ergonomic design, lightweight aluminum alloys, smooth helical focusing, and accurate optical viewfinders Combined, these features create cameras that fit the photographer hands like they fit his vision.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 08:17:36 pm by mmurph »
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fredjeang

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A View Camera for less than 1000 euros
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 08:35:34 pm »

Quote from: mmurph
I have two Fotoman 45PS cameras with 3 lens cones in 90mm, 120mm, and 150mm. I also have the spacers required to allow the use of a digital scanning back.

They are extremely well made, solid, simple, but very high performing cameras. Some of the nicest machines I have used to make images. I regard mine as highly as I used to regard my Mamiya 7II.  They are beautiful 4x5 "point and shoot" (hence the P&S) cameras. I fell in love the minute I first held one maybe 8 years ago.

They have solid, machined, aluminum bodies. They are well designed and well made by a true camera afficianado.  

I also have two Cambo Wide cameras (the original, not the DS.) The Fotoman is every bit as well made as the Cambo, with some features that I prefer over the Cambo.

The Fotoman web site is still available. You can look through the models that were made and sold. There is also a Q&A section with more information on the cameras.

http://www.fotomancamera.com/product_list.asp?id=335


This is **NOT** some generic Chinese low end product.

CAD designed and CNC machined to exacting tolerances from solid billets of T6000 series aluminum, Fotoman cameras offer features normally only found in cameras costing much more. Featuring rugged no-nonsense construction, superior ergonomic design, lightweight aluminum alloys, smooth helical focusing, and accurate optical viewfinders Combined, these features create cameras that fit the photographer hands like they fit his vision.
Thank you for your repply.
Well, as none poster had used it so far, it seemed that the chinese low end label was indeed the impression, and it is nice to read your contrasted post.
Very informative.

Fred.


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BobDavid

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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 09:00:51 pm »

By the way, that camera is a real bow wow as far as looks are concerned. Not that that matters. Right?

If you can buy the camera with a money back guarantee, then what the hell. ... I'd rather spend three times as much and get a clean used Cambo.
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mmurph

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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 09:17:33 pm »

I purchased my cameras directly from Paul Droluk. He is still posting at photo.net He is really a great guy.

There is also a list of dealers on the web site.  I am familiar with the two in the US, Badger and Midwest Photo. Both wonderful shops. You might inquire about used or residual stock.  There are also two French resellers listed.

In all fairness folks, there has been a lot of chatter here, based on no real information related to this product. You may wish to edit comments, or at leasat wait now until folks have who have used the cameras are able to chime in.

Ted Harris did a review of the 45PS in View Camera of Sept/Oct 2006. Unfortunately, I can't find that article available online.  There are reviews of the 6x17mm online.

You could have my Toyo AII and Calumet Wides long before I would give up the Fotoman! They were wonderful for street use in Chicago, as well as press/documentary/fashion work, both casual and high production value stuff.

Cheers!
Michael

From their web site:

****************************************

Fotoman Camera Ceases Production Time 4/8/2009 10:33:13 AM

It is with much regret and sadness, that Fotoman Camera Ltd. announces the termination of all manufacturing activities, effective April 1st, 2009.

Fotoman Camera will continue shipping product until existing inventories are depleted, after-which, Fotoman Camera Ltd. will officially cease all business activities.

Two primary factors have contributed to this decision…

Declining demand for our film-based camera products:
Product demand has declined to a level where we can no longer justify manufacturing at current volumes. Maintaining current levels of pricing, quality and logistics will be impossible at recent production volume. Similarly, some key sub-contractors will no longer be able to support us at current levels.

External demands on the Founders & Management of Fotoman Camera Limited:
Paul Droluk, Founder & President, and Len Grenier, Founder & CEO, are also active CEO’s of much larger N. American based companies, which are placing larger demands on their leadership and expertise. As such, they will no longer be able to devote the time and energies required to maintain proper vigil over the activities of Fotoman Camera Limited.

 
 
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fredjeang

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A View Camera for less than 1000 euros
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 10:02:43 pm »

Quote from: mmurph
I purchased my cameras directly from Paul Droluk. He is still posting at photo.net He is really a great guy.

There is also a list of dealers on the web site.  I am familiar with the two in the US, Badger and Midwest Photo. Both wonderful shops. You might inquire about used or residual stock.  There are also two French resellers listed.

In all fairness folks, there has been a lot of chatter here, based on no real information related to this product. You may wish to edit comments, or at leasat wait now until folks have who have used the cameras are able to chime in.

Ted Harris did a review of the 45PS in View Camera of Sept/Oct 2006. Unfortunately, I can't find that article available online.  There are reviews of the 6x17mm online.

You could have my Toyo AII and Calumet Wides long before I would give up the Fotoman! They were wonderful for street use in Chicago, as well as press/documentary/fashion work, both casual and high production value stuff.

Cheers!
Michael

From their web site:

****************************************

Fotoman Camera Ceases Production Time 4/8/2009 10:33:13 AM

It is with much regret and sadness, that Fotoman Camera Ltd. announces the termination of all manufacturing activities, effective April 1st, 2009.

Fotoman Camera will continue shipping product until existing inventories are depleted, after-which, Fotoman Camera Ltd. will officially cease all business activities.

Two primary factors have contributed to this decision…

Declining demand for our film-based camera products:
Product demand has declined to a level where we can no longer justify manufacturing at current volumes. Maintaining current levels of pricing, quality and logistics will be impossible at recent production volume. Similarly, some key sub-contractors will no longer be able to support us at current levels.

External demands on the Founders & Management of Fotoman Camera Limited:
Paul Droluk, Founder & President, and Len Grenier, Founder & CEO, are also active CEO’s of much larger N. American based companies, which are placing larger demands on their leadership and expertise. As such, they will no longer be able to devote the time and energies required to maintain proper vigil over the activities of Fotoman Camera Limited.
Is it possible to connect a betterlight 4000 EHS to the beast? you where talking about digi scan back.
Yes, the french mini review was clear about the portability and the versatility of this gear.
I saw that they also made a tech camera.

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 10:46:31 pm by fredjeang »
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Kumar

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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2010, 12:50:52 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Is it possible to connect a betterlight 4000 EHS to the beast? you where talking about digi scan back.
I saw that they also made a tech camera.
Fred.

Fotoman was going to modify one of their cameras to take the Betterlight. They even had a name for it - the 45BL. They were supposed to make some spacers for specific magnification ratios to use the BL as a copy camera. I think Mike Collette has a Fotoman - though I do not know if he has the BL version. If you have a Betterlight, or plan to buy one, send him an email.
Fotoman is still answering questions, so you could ask them as well.

The tech camera was never actually produced.

Kumar
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 12:53:41 am by Kumar »
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Anders_HK

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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 03:05:37 am »

Quote from: archivue
fotoman ceased production some times ago !

fotoman home page

ok that a 4x5 but no movements... you'd better go with a second hand cambo wide DS !

Hi,

"Fotoman ceased production" --- That is not at all correct truth! While it is correct that the American Paul Drulok and his Canadian partner gave up Fotoman, as in their Fotoman Camera Ltd (which was Hong Kong based). That was not so the case for their Chinese partner Charlie, who keeps on going with Fotoman as in Fotoman China, here http://www.fotomancamera.com.cn/. The cameras were and remain built by Charlie and his team.

Actually, I bought my Fotoman 617 last fall directly from Charlie and saw his business with own eyes. My impression is that he is the original creator of the products and that he continues to the high quality that Fotoman is known for. I can also say I know he do have some new product in the pipes, however it would not be correct for me to say more. Except I think aimed at both China and international. Further, Charlie was only responsible for the Chinese market before and not the international. That seem the reason that the international side is not that well marketed or clarified at moment. However I hope likely that will change sometime this year.

My 617 is stellar. It is very well and solid build. And hey, once you have that for this type of camera, what else is needed? Just quality film and lens. Simple. Charlie also makes a 624 panoramic, thus... one should be assured of that he is capable of producing yield in quality. The only downside is that my 617 is heavy, but so is any camera of its format.  

Do a search on Fotoman and you shall see they are known for quality. Used ones sell rather fast and well on Ebay. Thus I bought mine new.

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 03:14:56 am by Anders_HK »
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Adrian Roy

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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2010, 03:20:55 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Is it possible to connect a betterlight 4000 EHS to the beast? you where talking about digi scan back.
Yes, the french mini review was clear about the portability and the versatility of this gear.
I saw that they also made a tech camera.

Fred.

Fred,

If you haven't already read the six issues of magnachrom, you might find some interesting info regarding LF & MF equipment.

http://www.magnachrom.com/

Best Adrian.
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mmurph

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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2010, 07:08:17 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Is it possible to connect a betterlight 4000 EHS to the beast? you where talking about digi scan back.
Yes, the french mini review was clear about the portability and the versatility of this gear.
I saw that they also made a tech camera

I think the spacers are specifically to allow the Betterlight focus plane to be adjusted for repro work. I was not familiar with the "45BL" as mentioned in the next post, but that makes sense. Some of this technical detail is contained in the 1,000 or so Q&A that Paul replied to on the web site. I was looking at getting  a Betterlight at the time, before I was forced to "retire."

They were planning a nicely executed technical camera at a good price point. It was cancelled a while before the international part of the marketing ceased.  I think they were basically "done in" by the recession, and of course by the ongoing shift to digital.

They were good folks who worked hard and produced a decent product to fill a certain niche. There are quite a few of those type of small entrepreneur in what remains of the LF industry.

Let us know what you decide to pursue in the MF/LF realm! (Guess I'd be surprised if we didn't hear though!)

best,
Michael
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Kumar

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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2010, 08:11:49 am »

Quote from: mmurph
I think the spacers are specifically to allow the Betterlight focus plane to be adjusted for repro work. I was not familiar with the "45BL" as mentioned in the next post, but that makes sense. Some of this technical detail is contained in the 1,000 or so Q&A that Paul replied to on the web site. I was looking at getting  a Betterlight at the time, before I was forced to "retire."

best,
Michael

The spacers were meant to be used to aid in focusing at specific reproduction ratios for some of the commonly used copy lenses. The regular 45PS did not accept the Betterlight back, hence the 45BL.

Kumar
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