Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: MF vs FF : Show me some prints!  (Read 10530 times)

Gurglamei

  • Guest
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« on: March 16, 2010, 04:37:40 pm »

Dear Michael,

I do not know if this is a good idea, but here goes:

I currently use a FF Nikon DSLR, and I would really like to see how much better a MF digital camera actually is. I am considering to "upgrade", but don¨t know if I will appreciate or even see the difference. If I rent a MF, I most probably will not be able to do it justice in the short time available. I need someone in the know to do this with any degree of precision.

Would it be possible for you to take a series of images with a dsld and a mfdb respectively of the same sceenes and make available procesed and edited tif files ready to download and print on your readers own printers so we could actually see the difference in tonal transition, dynamic range and what ever other qualities a mfdb has compared to a FF DSLR?

I do not know about the rest of your readers, however I am willing to pay for your work. Not a portfolio price, but more in line with your excelent tutorials.



Sincerely,

Christopher

Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 05:16:45 pm »

Hi,

Yes, I agree.

Erk


Quote from: Gurglamei
Dear Michael,

I do not know if this is a good idea, but here goes:

I currently use a FF Nikon DSLR, and I would really like to see how much better a MF digital camera actually is. I am considering to "upgrade", but don¨t know if I will appreciate or even see the difference. If I rent a MF, I most probably will not be able to do it justice in the short time available. I need someone in the know to do this with any degree of precision.

Would it be possible for you to take a series of images with a dsld and a mfdb respectively of the same sceenes and make available procesed and edited tif files ready to download and print on your readers own printers so we could actually see the difference in tonal transition, dynamic range and what ever other qualities a mfdb has compared to a FF DSLR?

I do not know about the rest of your readers, however I am willing to pay for your work. Not a portfolio price, but more in line with your excelent tutorials.



Sincerely,

Christopher
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 05:26:00 pm »

We did something similar about four years ago. It was called Measuring Megapixels.

I can not begin to tell you how much work it was for everyone concerned. I also have to tell you that even though people could look at the files for themselves there was still all of the expected bitching and moaning about how we should have done this or that differently.

Sorry. This is kind of project is neither fun nor profitable, and in the end it goes largely unappreciated.

Michael

Ps: I will repeat what I've written before. If this is of more than just academic interest to you you owe it to yourself to visit a dealer and do your own tests and comparison. Don't believe or trust anything written or said by anyone when you're putting $30-$50,000 of your own money down. Including me.

If you just like the debate and have no plans to buy this type of gear, sorry, you'll have to either take someones word for what they see, or not, as you prefer.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 05:30:55 pm by michael »
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 05:44:07 pm »

Hey, the drum scanned 4x5 is defending itself more than honorably!

Fred.

Ps: les quatres mousquetaires.  
I imagine this might be a lot of unrewarded work. I did not know this article.
Thank you because if I did not have any doubt about the differences 35mm-MF, I had the chance to work in the past with both file types,
it was not clear for me how these backs perform regarding 4x5, and that helps.
I imagine now the P65 outperformed 4x5, maybe not 8x10?
and what would be a tech pan in 8x10? he he...
Great link.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 04:27:12 am by fredjeang »
Logged

AndreasSchmidt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
    • http://
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 07:29:32 am »

Hello,

there is only one way for you: just rent a MFD for a weekend or so and shoot, what you want to shoot. Look at the files - and then you can decide. I did it this way (and shouldn't have done - I simply can't put so much money away just for fun...).

Andreas
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 10:24:36 am »

Anyway, the high-end dslr like the canon 1Ds MK3 or Nikon equivalent are absolutely capable for the most demanding profesional tasks, specialy the last models.
I just come back to a meetic with an important fashion photographer and we talked a little bit of gears for a while, he just uses now exclusively the Canon and does not shoot any more MFD, even for big campaigns. No problems, the Canon just does the job fine.
I could see some big prints in the studio and they are perfectly fine for any serious exhibition.
It is just a question of choice where IQ is not the only factor to consider, but many aspects.
Again, for what I learn from the big pros, and it is curious that we do give it so much importance in the forums, is that IQ, DR etc...are the last things they are talking about when it comes to a choice of gear. Simply IMO because any kind of modern pro camera 35mm o MF has enough IQ and DR.
But more often if not always, what matters for them is if there is a safety conection, handling, data transfer, range of lenses and accesories, reliability etc...
I've never heard a serious Pro that I've worked with preocupated by the IQ or DR of his gear, I'm not kiding, never. They might be some of course, but in my experience I do not know one. Always periferical technical aspects like the conections (this, very often) etc...
So I think that it is really important that one base his choice on other aspects than IQ and it is obligatory to try a camera before. If your camera has 2000MP and 200 stops DR and even makes you the cofee, but you feel totally unconfortable with its handling, you will never be satisfied with it, regardeless its specs.

Regards,

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 01:13:06 pm by fredjeang »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 12:33:15 pm »

Hi,

I bought the 2006 MFDB shoot out DVD, it was a good one.

I can see that doing a proper comparison between different system is a major task. Also, whatever you find, there will be a lot of flak.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: michael
We did something similar about four years ago. It was called Measuring Megapixels.

I can not begin to tell you how much work it was for everyone concerned. I also have to tell you that even though people could look at the files for themselves there was still all of the expected bitching and moaning about how we should have done this or that differently.

Sorry. This is kind of project is neither fun nor profitable, and in the end it goes largely unappreciated.

Michael

Ps: I will repeat what I've written before. If this is of more than just academic interest to you you owe it to yourself to visit a dealer and do your own tests and comparison. Don't believe or trust anything written or said by anyone when you're putting $30-$50,000 of your own money down. Including me.

If you just like the debate and have no plans to buy this type of gear, sorry, you'll have to either take someones word for what they see, or not, as you prefer.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

mmurph

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 506
    • http://
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 10:18:27 pm »

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/comparisons/

Capture Integration has some sample files on it's web site you might download and print. If you don't have a large format printer, you can print panels and tape them. Or just print an 8x10 as a fragment of what would be a 40x60 or whatever.

It is always fun to learn.

I have to agree with Fred to a certain extent though.  When I hang out with photographers who are doing solid, vital, idea driven fne art work, I rarely hear anyone even mention the camera or any other tools. It is the content that matters.  I am always a little embarassed to be an equipment geek (but then I don't do any interesting images.)
Logged

Gurglamei

  • Guest
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 06:24:25 am »

Quote from: michael
We did something similar about four years ago. It was called Measuring Megapixels.

I can not begin to tell you how much work it was for everyone concerned. I also have to tell you that even though people could look at the files for themselves there was still all of the expected bitching and moaning about how we should have done this or that differently.

Sorry. This is kind of project is neither fun nor profitable, and in the end it goes largely unappreciated.

Michael

Ps: I will repeat what I've written before. If this is of more than just academic interest to you you owe it to yourself to visit a dealer and do your own tests and comparison. Don't believe or trust anything written or said by anyone when you're putting $30-$50,000 of your own money down. Including me.

If you just like the debate and have no plans to buy this type of gear, sorry, you'll have to either take someones word for what they see, or not, as you prefer.

Well there you have it. Try to help out and you end up being ......  Sorry to hear that. An attempt like that surely deserves better.

Actually, I am seriously considering MF as an alternative as part of my plan to upgrade.  Cameras like the new Hasselblad H4d 40 and evne more so the Pentax 645 make MF a serious alternative to a 24 or 30 MP DSLR.

I have most of your videojournals, but I can't find the shootout dvd. Is it still available? I can´t find it in your online store?


Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I bought the 2006 MFDB shoot out DVD, it was a good one.

I can see that doing a proper comparison between different system is a major task. Also, whatever you find, there will be a lot of flak.

Best regards
Erik

I can´t seem to find it. Where in the online store did you find it?


Sincerely,

Christopher
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 07:25:18 am »

Hi,

I got my DVD back in 2006, I don't think LuLa sells it any more...

In my view it would be a good idea to make it available for download.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Gurglamei
Well there you have it. Try to help out and you end up being ......  Sorry to hear that. An attempt like that surely deserves better.

Actually, I am seriously considering MF as an alternative as part of my plan to upgrade.  Cameras like the new Hasselblad H4d 40 and evne more so the Pentax 645 make MF a serious alternative to a 24 or 30 MP DSLR.

I have most of your videojournals, but I can't find the shootout dvd. Is it still available? I can´t find it in your online store?




I can´t seem to find it. Where in the online store did you find it?


Sincerely,

Christopher
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 08:05:27 am »

It's no longer available. Sorry. We don't do discs any more.

Anyone that has a copy can feel free to make another for other people. We retain copyright, but permit copying of this one particular disc.

Michael
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 08:33:01 am »

Hi,

Great news!

Thank you!

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: michael
It's no longer available. Sorry. We don't do discs any more.

Anyone that has a copy can feel free to make another for other people. We retain copyright, but permit copying of this one particular disc.

Michael
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

fredjeang

  • Guest
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 08:50:27 am »

I think that the sad story behind that, is that after the passionate reactions that generaly emerge from this kind of subjects, no one is going to take some time and do more testings, downloadable files etc...simply because any attempt will be immediatly harshly critize, there will always be another way to do it, it will never be scientific enough, or real world enough or whatever.
I try to pointed before that this kind of recurrent complains do not happen only with some articles of this website but also in between posters.
I remember when David Groover put an 800 iso sample handheld, immediately it was "you should have done this with tripod",or  "this sample does not show anything", "that's not the way to do it right" etc...
So less and less people are going to provide samples, reviews or comparaisons and IMO we all loose in this game.
Or maybe it will center us more on the artistic aspect?  
Amen,

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 08:53:37 am by fredjeang »
Logged

Joe Behar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 305
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 09:40:23 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
I remember when David Groover put an 800 iso sample handheld, immediately it was "you should have done this with tripod",or  "this sample does not show anything", "that's not the way to do it right" etc...
.

Fred,

That is exactly the reason that if you, or anyone else, is seriously considering a medium format back, the only way to be sure is to visit a dealer and do some tests for yourself. What you shoot will be right for YOU and the results will be valid for YOU.

I don't know any medium format dealers (Phase One or Hasselblad) that will not take the time to do a test with a potential client.

If you're ever in Toronto, I would be happy to do some tests with you and I'm sure Doug at Capture Integration will offer the same invitation if you're ever in Atlanta or Miami

Logged

tokengirl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 360
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2010, 09:41:39 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
I think that the sad story behind that, is that after the passionate reactions that generaly emerge from this kind of subjects, no one is going to take some time and do more testings, downloadable files etc...simply because any attempt will be immediatly harshly critize, there will always be another way to do it, it will never be scientific enough, or real world enough or whatever.

True.  I still think that one needs to do their own testing to determine if a system works for them or not.  Why would anyone want to rely on other people's tests for such an important decision?
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 09:49:09 am »

Quote from: Joe Behar
Fred,

That is exactly the reason that if you, or anyone else, is seriously considering a medium format back, the only way to be sure is to visit a dealer and do some tests for yourself. What you shoot will be right for YOU and the results will be valid for YOU.

I don't know any medium format dealers (Phase One or Hasselblad) that will not take the time to do a test with a potential client.

If you're ever in Toronto, I would be happy to do some tests with you and I'm sure Doug at Capture Integration will offer the same invitation if you're ever in Atlanta or Miami
I knew Toronto many years ago, because of a girl,
It will be nice to be back because of a gear.  
I remember the beaches district, it was hot in summer and a pancard on the beach: "swim at your own risk"
Then move to Vancouver, and the pancard changed to: "in case of earthquake, move up..." or something like that.
Dangerous place Canada.
Maybe the placid sun of Miami or Atlanta will be a better idea.(I'm kiding, I loved Toronto)
Actually, in Miami, I'm not far from the everglades, where there is the best B&W convertionist of this all forum.
Yes, a trip to Toronto is really in my plans in a not so far future, sure I'll go to see you and also pass by the Michael's gallery and, do a print workshop with the Phase you'll leave me for testing?  .

Cheers,

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 02:56:31 pm by fredjeang »
Logged

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 09:57:58 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
I think that the sad story behind that, is that after the passionate reactions that generaly emerge from this kind of subjects, no one is going to take some time and do more testings, downloadable files etc...simply because any attempt will be immediatly harshly critize, there will always be another way to do it, it will never be scientific enough, or real world enough or whatever.

Fred, agree no good deed goes unpunished which is a sad side effect of internet. It's much easier to bash and not support when you're sitting on your own behind a computer than you would ever do in a face-to-face discussion.

On the other hand, I also fully support your previous post here that IQ isn't everything.
In the end getting the picture with the tool you know and understand will even lead to better results than with a more difficult MFDB you are not familiar/comfortable with. Don't get me wrong, if people enjoy taking high quality pictures with an MFDB they need to continue to do so because they enjoy it, but that should be the motivation and not because someone claims (or could even prove) that a 16x24 print is different or better.

Do even the advertising or magazine editors who "demand" the highest quality MFDB results realise that the average person seeing their ad or magazine can't distinguish between a MFDB and a P&S shot used as the basis for the picture. The customer is always right, so a pro responding to these "demands" is just smart, but who is the real customer of these very high IQ pictures, the editor or the reader/viewer?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 10:03:30 am by pegelli »
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

Gurglamei

  • Guest
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 02:50:55 pm »

Quote from: michael
It's no longer available. Sorry. We don't do discs any more.

Anyone that has a copy can feel free to make another for other people. We retain copyright, but permit copying of this one particular disc.

Michael

Thank you!

Sincerely,

Christopher
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 03:56:09 pm »

Christopher,

Jag kan inte nå dig via "Messages", gå in på min hemsida: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ och klicka på "Contact Me" för att skicka mig en personlig e-mail, helst med postadress så jag kan skicka en DVD.

Vänliga hälningar
Erik



Quote from: Gurglamei
Thank you!

Sincerely,

Christopher
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
MF vs FF : Show me some prints!
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2010, 04:10:30 pm »

Hi,

Here is a collection of links I have on the issue: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.ph...vs-mfdb-vs-film

Here are some test pictures on the net: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dos-chin/sets...6120567/detail/

There has been some negative comments on the above tests, my view is that complain is not the first thing to do. I'm always thankful for folks sharing info.


Capture integration has also some tests and I got the impression that they could share the raw images on demand.
http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/comparisons/


Quote from: Gurglamei
Thank you!

Sincerely,

Christopher
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up