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Author Topic: Imageprint with Epson 7900  (Read 5642 times)

mkravit

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« on: March 08, 2010, 07:51:58 pm »

I am currently using ImagePrint 8 with my Epson 4800 and 9800.

We are replacing the 4800 with a new Epson 7900 and would like to know if anyone is using Imageprint with a X900. I read that some folks feel a RIP is not necessary with Epson's new printers, but I have always found ImagePrint to do an outstanding job.

Any input from users of IP and Epson 7900/9900 printers would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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wthomphoto

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2010, 08:38:16 am »

Quote from: mkravit
I am currently using ImagePrint 8 with my Epson 4800 and 9800.

We are replacing the 4800 with a new Epson 7900 and would like to know if anyone is using Imageprint with a X900. I read that some folks feel a RIP is not necessary with Epson's new printers, but I have always found ImagePrint to do an outstanding job.

Any input from users of IP and Epson 7900/9900 printers would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
My only complaint with ImagePrint is their customer support, which is virtually nil. I had a problem with my version of ImagePrint when I had to do a complete re-install on my Mac5. They had dropped all support for my version of ImagePrint.  To get ImagePrint to work now, I have to re-install it everytime I restart my computer. Big hassel that a previously available fix would have taken care of.  They just wanted me to upgrade.  I use it with the Epson 4000, and it is fantastic, but I will never again buy any ImagePrint product.
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mkravit

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2010, 10:19:24 am »

Quote from: wthomphoto
My only complaint with ImagePrint is their customer support, which is virtually nil. I had a problem with my version of ImagePrint when I had to do a complete re-install on my Mac5. They had dropped all support for my version of ImagePrint.  To get ImagePrint to work now, I have to re-install it everytime I restart my computer. Big hassel that a previously available fix would have taken care of.  They just wanted me to upgrade.  I use it with the Epson 4000, and it is fantastic, but I will never again buy any ImagePrint product.

Thanks for your experiences. My experience with the company has been different with respect to customer service but may be due to the fact that we maintain a support agreement with them.

However, I really would like to hear from folks regarding the quality of the image produced on an Epson 7900.  Comparing the Imageprint output to the Epson Driver on my 9800 results in better shadow detail and tonal range with the ImagePrint RIP. I printed the same file on a friends Epson 7900 through the Epson Print Driver and found the result to be very nice but felt that the shadow and highlight detail might be improved with IP. That is why I am asking what others have experienced.

Thanks again.
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edt

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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 04:39:02 am »

Quote from: mkravit
Thanks for your experiences. My experience with the company has been different with respect to customer service but may be due to the fact that we maintain a support agreement with them.

However, I really would like to hear from folks regarding the quality of the image produced on an Epson 7900.  Comparing the Imageprint output to the Epson Driver on my 9800 results in better shadow detail and tonal range with the ImagePrint RIP. I printed the same file on a friends Epson 7900 through the Epson Print Driver and found the result to be very nice but felt that the shadow and highlight detail might be improved with IP. That is why I am asking what others have experienced.

Thanks again.

I installed IP8 along with a 7900 about 6 weeks ago. No installation problems to speak of. Works great and I love the outpout. I had to phone IP customer service 3 times in the first 10 days with questions and I got excellent response. Couldn't be happier and layouts with multiple prints are a snap.

On the 7900 I had to do a "clean pairs" one time but otherwise every Nozzle Check has resulted in all nozzles performing properly. Thank heavens.
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Sven W

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 06:49:26 am »

Quote from: mkravit
I am currently using ImagePrint 8 with my Epson 4800 and 9800.

We are replacing the 4800 with a new Epson 7900 and would like to know if anyone is using Imageprint with a X900. I read that some folks feel a RIP is not necessary with Epson's new printers, but I have always found ImagePrint to do an outstanding job.

Any input from users of IP and Epson 7900/9900 printers would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

I've been using IP for 6 years now, and on almost all Epson Pro printers. Today I print on 4800, 9900 and 11880.
Following the progress of printquality I can only admit that, of course you can get excellent results without a RIP, with current printer-models (Ep, HP, Can).
But the advantages with a RIP for me, as a large volume fineart printmaker, are obvius vs the printdriver.

1. Color management. Printerprofiles included for almost every paper on the market. In different whitepoints and gray-profiles.
And most of them are very accurate "out-of-the-box". I can make my own profiles whenever needed, and compare. But that's very seldom.
2. Workflow. I don't list all the features here, but after the first day, I was stuck, and I will never go back and print from PS. (Lightroom is a step forward)
3. The way IP handles ink-laydown. You save 25% in ink.
4. As some others state; smoother shadows and highlights, esp. in B/W compared to ABW.
5. B/W. The absolute best solution, together with Piezography.
6. The cost is high, but in the end it's actually cheaper in total printingcosts, because of all above.

/Sven
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mkravit

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 04:49:00 pm »

Thanks for the great input. I have ordered the upgrade and should have the dongle shortly.
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mkravit

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 11:55:16 am »

The following outlines my initial impressions of the Epson 7900 and IP8 RIP.

I received the Epson 7900 Dongle from Imageprint and downloaded the applicable paper profiles while deleting the old 4800 profiles I had been using.

I printed a few images on several papers including H. Photo Rag, Canson Platine, Epson Exhibition, Museo Silver Rag, Ilford Galerie Gold Fiber Silk, and Harman Fiber Gloss AL both in color and BW, both with the IP8 RIP and theEpson Driver (Color and ABW).

The results were easily identifiable and clearly impressive. Although the Epson driver produced very nice results utilizing the manufacturer profiles, the IP8 results were outstanding. Shadow detail, highlight detail/smoothness and color rendition was clearly superior to my eye. The BW color printed through IP8 appeared to be completely neutral while the Epson ABW appeared to be neutral until I placed the prints side by side.

All in all, the differences are not night and day, they are clearly definitive and quantifiable from a visual examination.
I am please that I upgradedto the 7900 and decided to continue using Imageprint.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 12:49:55 pm by mkravit »
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Gemmtech

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 07:50:33 pm »

Quote from: mkravit
The following outlines my initial impressions of the Epson 7900 and IP8 RIP.

I received the Epson 7900 Dongle from Imageprint and downloaded the applicable paper profiles while deleting the old 4800 profiles I had been using.

I printed a few images on several papers including H. Photo Rag, Canson Platine, Epson Exhibition, Museo Silver Rag, Ilford Galerie Gold Fiber Silk, and Harman Fiber Gloss AL both in color and BW, both with the IP8 RIP and theEpson Driver (Color and ABW).

The results were easily identifiable and clearly impressive. Although the Epson driver produced very nice results utilizing the manufacturer profiles, the IP8 results were outstanding. Shadow detail, highlight detail/smoothness and color rendition was clearly superior to my eye. The BW color printed through IP8 appeared to be completely neutral while the Epson ABW appeared to be neutral until I placed the prints side by side.

All in all, the differences are not night and day, they are clearly definitive and quantifiable from a visual examination.
I am please that I upgradedto the 7900 and decided to continue using Imageprint.

This is extremely interesting.  I always wonder why one does and one doesn't.  You'd think that if IP made as much difference as you suggest many more photographers would use the product?  I remember reading MR reviews of this incredible product and I believe he always highly recommended it. Now it seems MR and many others on this site have concluded that IP doesn't make much if any difference anymore.  I currently own a 3880 and will buy the next version of the 7900 after they get the issues resolved.  I always wanted to buy IP for the many amenities it offers, but Lightroom will soon be in V3 with the much improved print engine, however it seems that IP helps a lot regarding print quality?  Do others agree?


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dgberg

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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 08:34:44 pm »

I think it boils down to cost versus benefit ratio and agree with MR that it just is not necessary. Output from the 7900/9900 is stunning as is. Even though I do not have IP or any images generated through it to compare I just cannot imagine the stated improvements with IP justify its cost.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:36:28 pm by Dan Berg »
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Gemmtech

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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 09:01:43 pm »

Michael K,  I am assuming that the visual quality differences are via just the naked eye?  You are not using a loop?  Being an architect you are probably like me and very fastidious?  MR always loved the product and then as Dan Berg stated it seems with the introduction of the 7900 IP wasn't needed anymore or just didn't make that much of a difference.  Nice to hear from somebody who has tested it with a lot of different papers.  I wish I could see it for myself.  I am tempted to spend the $895.00 and get a copy for the 3880 just to see, but I'd want a fairly large improvement over what I get with the stock machine.
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dgberg

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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 06:37:30 am »

To explain a little more. Having both the 7900 and 9900 almost doubles the cost for me. I actually was looking at the program quite seriously until I heard that.
Still wouldn't mind comparing the IP output next to my Epson prints to make sure I am not missing anything really earth shattering.

PS. I have been corrected that the cost is not double but is still $3295 for both of my printers.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 07:44:23 am by Dan Berg »
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Sven W

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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 08:53:45 am »

Quote from: Gemmtech
Michael K,  I am assuming that the visual quality differences are via just the naked eye?  You are not using a loop?  Being an architect you are probably like me and very fastidious?  MR always loved the product and then as Dan Berg stated it seems with the introduction of the 7900 IP wasn't needed anymore or just didn't make that much of a difference.  Nice to hear from somebody who has tested it with a lot of different papers.  I wish I could see it for myself.  I am tempted to spend the $895.00 and get a copy for the 3880 just to see, but I'd want a fairly large improvement over what I get with the stock machine.

I quote myself:
Following the progress of printquality I can only admit that, of course you can get excellent results without a RIP, with current printer-models (Ep, HP, Can).
But the advantages with a RIP for me, as a large volume fineart printmaker, are obvius vs the printdriver.

1. Color management. Printerprofiles included for almost every paper on the market. In different whitepoints and gray-profiles.
And most of them are very accurate "out-of-the-box". I can make my own profiles whenever needed, and compare. But that's very seldom.
2. Workflow. I don't list all the features here, but after the first day, I was stuck, and I will never go back and print from PS. (Lightroom is a step forward)
3. The way IP handles ink-laydown. You save 25% in ink.
4. As some others state; smoother shadows and highlights, esp. in B/W compared to ABW.
5. B/W. The absolute best solution, together with Piezography.
6. The cost is high, but in the end it's actually cheaper in total printingcosts, because of all above.

So my conclusion is: Almost all current printermodels on the market produce excellent results with a correct profile for a particular (good) paper.
But for me, using at least 10 images in 10 different imagesizes and combined with 10 different papers per day, the workflow with IP is just unbeatable.
/Sven
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edt

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 09:34:02 am »

Quote from: Dan Berg
I think it boils down to cost versus benefit ratio and agree with MR that it just is not necessary. Output from the 7900/9900 is stunning as is. Even though I do not have IP or any images generated through it to compare I just cannot imagine the stated improvements with IP justify its cost.



Since I am NOT a high production house I am pretty sure my purchase of Imageprint 8 is NOT cost justified but a maybe a luxury I don't want to do without.....and if when I pushed the "print" button on my 7900 I was typically printing a single image on the page  I would probably not have purchased IP at all. But for me, the 2 primary reasons for buying IP was the ability to quickly and flexibly nest multiple images on one large page (without having to go into Photoshop to increase Canvas Size and combine multiple images onto one document)...also nice to be able to print the same image in multiple sizes without having to make multiple copies at different sizes, possibly with different output sharpening for the large prints vs small print sizes--letting IP do the calculation on the fly.
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Gemmtech

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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 09:40:11 am »

Quote from: Sven W
I quote myself:
Following the progress of printquality I can only admit that, of course you can get excellent results without a RIP, with current printer-models (Ep, HP, Can).
But the advantages with a RIP for me, as a large volume fineart printmaker, are obvius vs the printdriver.

1. Color management. Printerprofiles included for almost every paper on the market. In different whitepoints and gray-profiles.
And most of them are very accurate "out-of-the-box". I can make my own profiles whenever needed, and compare. But that's very seldom.
2. Workflow. I don't list all the features here, but after the first day, I was stuck, and I will never go back and print from PS. (Lightroom is a step forward)
3. The way IP handles ink-laydown. You save 25% in ink.
4. As some others state; smoother shadows and highlights, esp. in B/W compared to ABW.
5. B/W. The absolute best solution, together with Piezography.
6. The cost is high, but in the end it's actually cheaper in total printingcosts, because of all above.

So my conclusion is: Almost all current printermodels on the market produce excellent results with a correct profile for a particular (good) paper.
But for me, using at least 10 images in 10 different imagesizes and combined with 10 different papers per day, the workflow with IP is just unbeatable.
/Sven

The ink savings of 25% is very interesting, is it always around that amount?  Have you personally tested that?  Does IP help with gloss differential and bronzing?  It bothers me with the 3880.  Does IP help with achieving blacker blacks?  

You'd think the actual manufacturer could make the best software to work with their printers, but they don't.
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Gemmtech

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 09:44:12 am »

Quote from: Dan Berg
To explain a little more. Having both the 7900 and 9900 almost doubles the cost for me. I actually was looking at the program quite seriously until I heard that.
Still wouldn't mind comparing the IP output next to my Epson prints to make sure I am not missing anything really earth shattering.

PS. I have been corrected that the cost is not double but is still $3295 for both of my printers.


Dan,

I haven't looked into IP that close, but are you saying you have to buy the product twice? Once for the 7900 and once for the 9900.  Are you sure you just don't buy a second dongle for $600.00 or something similar?  That's the way most CAD software is priced that I use.  It's amazing that we have to spend another $1000.00 or more for software to optimize a $1,300.00 - $5,000.00 printer  
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mkravit

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 10:11:37 am »

I believe that all of the discussion here is very valid, I will try to explain what I think a bit more:

First, the Epson 7900 makes lovely prints. The Epson print driver is quite capable and works extremely well. ImagePrint is absolutely not necessary and is in fact, very expensive. When MR says that with thge new printers RIP's can RIP, I respectfully disagree for the following reasons.

Where i am going with this is like many of you, I am highly critical of the visual quality of my prints. I can control the aesthetic composition, design, and feel of the image but I can't control the output given the parameters that are associated with inkjet printing much more than what is provided to me in the software. You see, I am a design professional by education. I am pretty illiterate when it comes to computer issues other then button pushing.

When I got the 7900, I was blown away by the ease with which I could get good looking prints. However, there was something missing. A subtlety that separates my mind from being drawn to the image as a visual experience vs looking at the image technically from a print quality viewpoint. I am torn between the two. The artist wants to ignore the technical side and the engineer wants to analyze the print image quality. This is a fight that I have on a continuing basis. I want the artist to win.

In order to asses the sublety of the images, I printed each image twice. Once using the Epson driver and once using IP8. I fine tuned the Epson driver output "as best as I could" using the paper manufacturers profiles. I am not into profiling as I have enough technical stuff to do in my profession, I don't want more to do in my art. Photography is an extension of the creative side and I really only want it to be art. Years ago I got into ink mixing and all of that stuff only to begin to despise all things photographic.

After printing and hanging the images, I spent several hours looking at the images. The IP results had that subtlety that I am speaking of. Perhaps this is arbitrary, perhaps it is just me, but the IP images just work. They are just better, they glow, they look better, they have better tonal range, they are smoother, they are more visually satifying. The best way I can describe this is that they are NOT harsh. Can I documet this technically or through rational analysis? No, and as I have mentioned I have no interest in doing so. Could I get the same results if I were to profile all of my papers and spend lot of time fine tuning? Maybe, but again for me ImagePrint just works. The images have wonderful shadow detail which is clean and distinct as well as smoother more uniform highlights.

If I were to place the two prints side by side and ask the lay person to explain the difference, chances are they might not see what I am speaking of. But for me, the difference is significant. It allows me to concentrate on the visual poetry of the image and experience the moment without letting the technical printing aspects get in the way.

With ImagePrint, erverthing else that can be a distraction just gets out of the way.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 10:21:54 am by mkravit »
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dgberg

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Imageprint with Epson 7900
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 01:55:46 pm »

Michael K.
Some very good points indeed. More of my problem is my clientel is that lay group of people you talk about. Mostly from that bucolic Lancaster County dutch area in se Pennsylvania,not Boca by any means.
From my pricing standpoint I really cannot squeeze any more blood from the turnip. So the IP price point kills the product for me. If it was $500 or even a $1000 I would probably own it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 06:05:03 am by Dan Berg »
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ghaynes754

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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2010, 10:25:50 pm »

I have to agree with Mike Kravit.  I profiled using ColorMunki, made a test print using CS4 and then made the same print using IP8.  More detail in the shadows with IP8 and better overall tonal range.  I argued with myself over whether to buy the XRite system for profiling but with the number of IP users out there and most of them atest to the reduction in ink usage I bought IP8.  I also use the MyEpsonPrinter website for tracking usage.  If someone is also using that service I would be happy to post my ink usage results for a given canvas print.  While it might not matter it would be interesting to compare apples to apples.  I print on Hahnemule Monet.
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Alan Davis

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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2010, 07:55:31 am »

Some very interesting statements by  Pete Myers in his review of Imageprint 8.

"If you are printing on canvas or a rougher surfaced paper, ImagePrint has unique capability in providing four and eight pass printing at 1440 dpi. In this mode, the print heads will make four or eight passes over the same print area and gradually build up the ink to make the image. The dot size for each drop of ink is modulated, as well as its exact placement. In so doing, it creates far more precision and uses far more dots of ink to slowly build up the image while it absorbs into the print surface. Try it!

In 2880 dpi mode, the print method is more direct, but still gradually builds up the image on the paper across the printhead. You can observe the print process on your printer and see how the image is slowly built up across the printhead. By controlling the amount of ink that is applied at each stage, there is more subtlety to, and exactness in, the final print. For me, this is critical in making a fine art print, especially in regard to precision in the lower zones of the image in my monochrome prints.
"

Here's the link to his review.     http://diglloyd.com/articles/GrabBag/myers-ImagePrint.html

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