Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Photographer's rights in the UK  (Read 3474 times)

Jim White

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Photographer's rights in the UK
« on: March 08, 2010, 05:24:41 am »

I know that this subject gets the occasional airing but make no apologies for stirring it up again.
I have lived in a police state, didn't like it and can see the UK rushing headlong that way.

Is the photog community (globally) making enough of a fuss about our rights? Here are two more examples gleaned from epuknews.

Sunday Times:
http://tinyurl.com/yfp5cho

Oxford Mail:
http://tinyurl.com/yjvcqj9

Forgive me if the links don't come out right  

Jim
Logged

feppe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2906
  • Oh this shows up in here!
    • Harri Jahkola Photography
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 06:30:51 am »

I'm going to be in the UK in early April taking photographs, and these stories are concerning.

Is there some official statement about the legality of taking photographs in public places I could print out and refer to if I get approached by the police or security?

Jim White

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 06:40:03 am »

Have a look at this.

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/2009/05/14/uk-phot...hers-rights-v2/

and there are a few links on this page that it's worth following.

http://www.urban75.org/photos/photographer...nd-the-law.html


Jim
Logged

feppe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2906
  • Oh this shows up in here!
    • Harri Jahkola Photography
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 06:57:44 am »

Quote from: Jim White
Have a look at this.

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/2009/05/14/uk-phot...hers-rights-v2/

and there are a few links on this page that it's worth following.

http://www.urban75.org/photos/photographer...nd-the-law.html


Jim

Photography is a hobby to me so this is more trouble than its worth. I'll just delete photos and stop if I get confronted.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2010, 10:41:46 am »

Quote from: feppe
Photography is a hobby to me so this is more trouble than its worth. I'll just delete photos and stop if I get confronted.

That will only make matters worse for others. The only way out is to protest against police haressment, if only by handing them a printed copy of the stop and search bust card, and/or a copy of the artwork at the bottom of http://photographernotaterrorist.org/ (smile when you hand them a copy, they are also humans, although occasionally sadly ill informed ones).

There is no obligation whatsoever to delete images, unless you are photographing a (e.g. military) facility with a sign that says that photography is prohibited!

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

feppe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2906
  • Oh this shows up in here!
    • Harri Jahkola Photography
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 12:39:06 pm »

Browsing through the info provided above my rights to not being searched in the UK are pretty much non-existent.

Quote from: BartvanderWolf
That will only make matters worse for others. The only way out is to protest against police haressment, if only by handing them a printed copy of the stop and search bust card, and/or a copy of the artwork at the bottom of http://photographernotaterrorist.org/ (smile when you hand them a copy, they are also humans, although occasionally sadly ill informed ones).

There is no obligation whatsoever to delete images, unless you are photographing a (e.g. military) facility with a sign that says that photography is prohibited!

Cheers,
Bart

I'll let the natives do the protesting and continue protesting with my euros (ie. continue to avoid Heathrow as much as I can, and not visiting UK). Unfortunately I can't change the destination this time.

I'm certainly not going to spend my vacation arguing with a police officer if I can avoid it.

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2010, 04:53:32 am »

Quote from: feppe
Browsing through the info provided above my rights to not being searched in the UK are pretty much non-existent.



I'll let the natives do the protesting and continue protesting with my euros (ie. continue to avoid Heathrow as much as I can, and not visiting UK). Unfortunately I can't change the destination this time.

I'm certainly not going to spend my vacation arguing with a police officer if I can avoid it.




To be truthful, I should imagine that a policeman will never come anywhere near you. The problem in Britain is usually the other way around: you can never find a policeman. Of course, if you insist on taking pictures in obviously sensitive zones like airports, stations, shopping malls etc, can you really be surprised? If you have a legitimate need, such as commercial photography, you have no problem if you seek proper authority.

Whether a terrorist will be using a phone camera or some other less obvious device instead isn't the point: the point is that the fuzz has an obligation to do what it can to protect the public and it will get its ass kicked for each and every failure. Just as it does when it is thought to be trying too hard. It is a non-win situation for the authorities and, for my money, I'd rather a few or even thousands of happy snappers were disappointed than I or mine (or you and yours) get blow to bits.

Rob C
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 04:54:59 am by Rob C »
Logged

EduPerez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 700
    • Edu Pérez
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 06:12:55 am »

Quote from: feppe
Photography is a hobby to me so this is more trouble than its worth. I'll just delete photos and stop if I get confronted.

Be very careful, as that is a dangerously sloppy slide...
Logged

feppe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2906
  • Oh this shows up in here!
    • Harri Jahkola Photography
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2010, 06:30:20 am »

Quote from: EduPerez
Be very careful, as that is a dangerously sloppy slide...

Thank you for the unsolicited moral advice, but I'll respectfully ignore it. I'm not going to protest a local matter on foreign soil on my vacation.

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 10:46:44 am »

I agree with Edu that letting this kind of thing go on is a dangerous slide that can end in a 1984 type culture. But that said, I also agree with Hari that unless you're a citizen of the U.K., it's not your business to try to halt the slide. Of course if that kind of thing starts to happen in the U.S. I'll be on it like a fly on stink.

Quote from: Rob C
I'd rather a few or even thousands of happy snappers were disappointed than I or mine (or you and yours) get blow to bits.

But Rob, I don't agree with that statement at all. In the first place, if a terrorist wants pictures he's going to be able to get them, cops or no cops -- unless the cops cordon off the area and strip-search everyone who comes inside. I've had my butt on the line in enough wars to understand that there are some things worth risking your sweet bippy for. This is one of them.
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

Justan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1928
    • Justan-Elk.com
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2010, 12:51:11 pm »

I only read the first article but it is a telling reflection of a society shown the back of the State's hand. Evidently, for reasons that amount to the convenience of a fearful State, the simple act of taking a snap in public can bring upon retaliation by the State. And this is the same State that has millions of cameras trained upon the public already. The duplicity is entirely telling.

The worst part is that this is just the beginning. Fear is the favored thorn tipped whip of governments and profiteers everywhere. Fear creates convenient rationalization for any and all moves against the liberty of the people and their property rights as well. Fear also feeds the desire for “protective” measures. Where today people are stopped and harassed for taking fotos, tomorrow more countries will pass laws against owning cameras.

The article may seem to be about photographers, but in truth it is about another death blow to civil liberty.

It is painful and obvious that the very thing that generations of citizens fought to protect - Liberty –continues to be gagged into lifelessness upon the alter of fear.

As my dad used to say: “Why should today be different than any other day?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 12:52:24 pm by Justan »
Logged

Paul Sumi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1217
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2010, 03:51:34 pm »

From an article posted today on DPReview, FWIW:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1003/10031003ukgovstatement.asp

Press statement
Policing and Crime Minister David Hanson MP said:

"I recently met with Austin Mitchell MP, members of the Parliamentary All Party Photography Group and representatives of the photographic press and the Royal Photographic Society to discuss the issue of counter terrorism powers and offences in relation to photography.

"I welcomed the opportunity to reassure all those concerned with this issue that we have no intention of Section 44 or Section 58A being used to stop ordinary people taking photos or to curtail legitimate journalistic activity.

"Guidance has been provided to all police forces advising that these powers and offences should not be used to stop innocent member of the public, tourists or responsible journalists from taking photographs.

"These powers and offences are intended to help protect the public and those on the front line of our counter terrorism operations from terrorist attack. For the 58A offence to be committed, the information is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism.

"I have committed to writing to Austin Mitchell MP to reinforce this message and to follow-up on the representations made to me at today's meeting.”
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 03:53:08 pm by Paul Sumi »
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 08:39:29 am »

Quote from: Paul Sumi
From an article posted today on DPReview, FWIW:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1003/10031003ukgovstatement.asp

Press statement
Policing and Crime Minister David Hanson MP said:

"I recently met with Austin Mitchell MP, members of the Parliamentary All Party Photography Group and representatives of the photographic press and the Royal Photographic Society to discuss the issue of counter terrorism powers and offences in relation to photography.

"I welcomed the opportunity to reassure all those concerned with this issue that we have no intention of Section 44 or Section 58A being used to stop ordinary people taking photos or to curtail legitimate journalistic activity.

"Guidance has been provided to all police forces advising that these powers and offences should not be used to stop innocent member of the public, tourists or responsible journalists from taking photographs.

"These powers and offences are intended to help protect the public and those on the front line of our counter terrorism operations from terrorist attack. For the 58A offence to be committed, the information is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism.

"I have committed to writing to Austin Mitchell MP to reinforce this message and to follow-up on the representations made to me at today's meeting.”

Indeed. I found this information as issued by the UK government:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/publications/home-office-circulars/circulars-2009/012-2009/

For those engaged in photography in public places in the UK, it might be helpful to have a printed copy at hand, in case the info didn't trickle down the command chain.

Only when there is a reasonable suspicion that a person is a terrorist, or when you are in an "Authorised area", is viewing of one's images allowed. Therefore the obvious questions when requested to show one's images are: Is this an authorised area (and if so, under which directive)?  If answered negatively the followup question becomes: Do you have a suspicion that I am a terrorist? If answered affirmatively, then one should ask what that suspicion is based on.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 12:32:44 pm »

When I read these glib bits of advice on how to speak to the strong arm of the law I suppress a smile, remembering very clearly how speaking like that sometimes pays off. Not.

Rob C

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 06:13:21 am »

Quote from: Rob C
To be truthful, I should imagine that a policeman will never come anywhere near you. The problem in Britain is usually the other way around: you can never find a policeman. Of course, if you insist on taking pictures in obviously sensitive zones like airports, stations, shopping malls etc, can you really be surprised? If you have a legitimate need, such as commercial photography, you have no problem if you seek proper authority.
Not spent much time in UK of late have you?
Getting hassled for taking photographs is sadly becoming the norm, by aggresive security guards looking for a fight, ignorant PCSOs, numpties objecting to you photographing your own children or even a landscape is becoming the norm. And a fish and chip shop or a christmas parade are hardly sensitive areas, which idiot policemen have objected to of late. Professional photographers get lots of hassle whilst working too.


Quote
Whether a terrorist will be using a phone camera or some other less obvious device instead isn't the point:....
It is very much the point actually.
As it is so, so very easy to do this covertly, why stop someone who has a large and obvious camera?

Quote
......the point is that the fuzz has an obligation to do what it can to protect the public.....
by upholding the law, not by breaking it.

Quote
..... and it will get its ass kicked for each and every failure. Just as it does when it is thought to be trying too hard. It is a non-win situation for the authorities and, for my money, I'd rather a few or even thousands of happy snappers were disappointed than I or mine (or you and yours) get blow to bits.
But the problem is that with limited resources, wasting them on alienating large numbers of the public in order to achieve absolutely nothing is a complete waste of time. It's more pathetic and useless security theatre. It's not disappointing happy snappers, it's preventing people going about their lawful business by illegal means and intimidation. It's police state nonsense which is of zero benefit and considering the existence of Google Street View, cameras in nearly every mobile phone and a popualtion where mobiles are carried by nearly everyone, it is even more ludicrous.
The terrorists aim is to ruin or disrupt our lives. Now the authorities are doing it for them.

Quote
When I read these glib bits of advice on how to speak to the strong arm of the law I suppress a smile, remembering very clearly how speaking like that sometimes pays off. Not.
Knowing your rights when some ignorant fool tries to breaks the law/intimidate you is actually a useful thing. Not standing up is the worst thing you can do.
The current situation we our now in brings to mind this

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

it feels like we are on a very slippery slope with our increasing right wing government.
I'm beginning to be very ashamed of the country I live in.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 06:16:24 am by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 04:57:02 pm »

Quote from: jjj
1.  Not spent much time in UK of late have you?

2.   it feels like we are on a very slippery slope with our increasing right wing government.
I'm beginning to be very ashamed of the country I live in.




Hi jjj

1.   You are right with that - but I am in pretty constant contact via family and the ubiquitous satellite tv, but I suppose that even were I to live there now it would all depend on just where I happened to be.

2.   How many years of unbroken socialism have we had now? I can hardly even remember a time when there was anyone other than Saints Tony and Gordon. Despite a few rays of hope for change, I think the next election will reveal no change from the status quo. As with the BA Unite people, I think the facts have no bearing on the public consciousness; I remember decades ago when the German car unions were swearing solidarity with the striking UK British Leyland lemings and they were all so pleased! Of course they got solidarity: suicide in Britain meant less competition for car workers in Germany then, just like if BA dies then less competition and longer job security for the Australians and all the rest now promising assisted suicide for the Brits now.

Maybe that's partly the cause for your 'shame'? That nobody really gets it, gets anything?

Or maybe not.

Ciao

Rob C

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2010, 09:44:48 pm »

Quote from: Rob C
How many years of unbroken socialism have we had now? I can hardly even remember a time when there was anyone other than Saints Tony and Gordon.
You think they are socialists!!? More right wing than Maggie more like.  
The problem the Conservatives have in the forthcoming election is seeming any different from the current government, other than they are more posh and do more expensive tax fraud.

Last time a socialist government was in power was in the 70s.

My increasing shame with the country has zero to do with idiotic union disputes, but at the constant erosion of civil liberties and security theatre.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Photographer's rights in the UK
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2010, 06:16:39 am »

Quote from: jjj
My increasing shame with the country has zero to do with idiotic union disputes, but at the constant erosion of civil liberties and security theatre.




jjj

Maybe Security Theatre is the only show in town?

Glad to see you posting again, anyhow!

Rob C
Pages: [1]   Go Up