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Author Topic: Dedicated Black & White compact camera  (Read 11683 times)

AlexB2010

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Dedicated Black & White compact camera
« on: March 05, 2010, 07:29:18 am »

We have been seeing a lot of cameras coming in the market. On the compact segment each manufacturer releases at least a dozen models every year. There is a marketing struggle to grab some market share, and as the technology advances cameras are more alike each day.
A Small Sensor no bayer dedicated B&W camera probably will have more market share than their peers. If done properly a non bayer CCD will deliver more definition because they don’t have an anti aliasing filter and without the RGB filters light sensitivity will be dramatically increased. A output file in 14 or 16 bits will give B&W a lot of space that lacks on converted images from bayer sensors.
Obviously that 1 / 2,5  sensor without anti aliasing filter will require a better lens to really use the capacity of a 8MP non bayer ccd.
B&W is popular, a lot of photographers still use film and much more convert their digital images. A Small, side pocket, not so expensive B&W camera, capable of high quality images and use of filter probably will have more market share than their fellows.
What is yours ideas on the subject?
Best,
Alex

fredjeang

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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2010, 07:37:24 am »

There is actually a gear that I may recommend, it works very well for B&W: the Sigma DP serie.
I owned an SD14 for some years and been very happy... when I sold it...but in the DPs it makes more sense.
The overall IQ is nothing less than spectacular if you consider than it is equivalent to a 8-9 MP ( and certainly not 15 like Sigma claims ).
The SD14? = at your own risk.
These DP cameras are cheap now and worth a look. Optic is really good.

Cheers,

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 07:38:15 am by fredjeang »
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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2010, 08:02:41 am »

Quote from: AlexB2010
What is yours ideas on the subject?

Don't hold you breath.
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AlexB2010

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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2010, 08:46:13 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
There is actually a gear that I may recommend, it works very well for B&W: the Sigma DP serie.
I owned an SD14 for some years and been very happy... when I sold it...but in the DPs it makes more sense.
The overall IQ is nothing less than spectacular if you consider than it is equivalent to a 8-9 MP ( and certainly not 15 like Sigma claims ).
The SD14? = at your own risk.
These DP cameras are cheap now and worth a look. Optic is really good.

Cheers,

Fred.
I think tha using a foveon to B&W is like to use a missile to kill a bug, a simple and cheap B&W CCD will do the trick.
best,
Alex

AlexB2010

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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2010, 08:49:26 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Don't hold you breath.
I'm not holding...  just thinking, but, a think that will be a nice market strategy, even for a non top brand, since the sensors are already in the market.
Best,
Alex

NikoJorj

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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2010, 09:06:54 am »

Quote from: AlexB2010
If done properly a non bayer CCD will deliver more definition because they don’t have an anti aliasing filter and without the RGB filters light sensitivity will be dramatically increased.
Perhaps you shoudn't expect really dramatic improvements (1 or 2 stops?), but for a small and noisy P&S sensor, this kind of concept makes more sense than for a bigger one.
OTOH, post-capture filtration is a BIG plus when one does B&W conversion from a color capture.

So, I won't hold my breath either.
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AlexB2010

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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2010, 09:23:20 am »

Quote from: NikoJorj
Perhaps you shoudn't expect really dramatic improvements (1 or 2 stops?), but for a small and noisy P&S sensor, this kind of concept makes more sense than for a bigger one.
A small pocketable camera 2 stops more sensitive will be very nice.
Quote from: NikoJorj
OTOH, post-capture filtration is a BIG plus when one does B&W conversion from a color capture.

So, I won't hold my breath either.
I have a problem in post-capture filtration, they are never like the real filter in front of the lens, to get the same dramatic effects the digital image end messed up in their quality.
Best,
Alex

ckimmerle

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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2010, 01:22:19 pm »

Quote from: AlexB2010
I have a problem in post-capture filtration, they are never like the real filter in front of the lens, to get the same dramatic effects the digital image end messed up in their quality.

You're making the assumption that a non-Bayer sensor will have the same response to filtration than film does.  I seriously doubt that will be the case. You might be disappointed.

As for post-processed b/w, sure it looks different than film, but does that make it worse, or just different? With the right skill set and talent, a photographer can make a digital b/w image as powerful as a traditional print (maybe more so), Bayer array, or no.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 01:23:07 pm by ckimmerle »
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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2010, 01:38:27 pm »

Quote from: AlexB2010
I'm not holding...  just thinking, but, a think that will be a nice market strategy, even for a non top brand, since the sensors are already in the market.
Best,
Alex

It would be a terrible market strategy ... you just aren't thinking like a business-person.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 01:38:52 pm by Jeremy Payne »
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AlexB2010

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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2010, 08:17:12 pm »

Quote from: ckimmerle
You're making the assumption that a non-Bayer sensor will have the same response to filtration than film does.  I seriously doubt that will be the case. You might be disappointed.

As for post-processed b/w, sure it looks different than film, but does that make it worse, or just different? With the right skill set and talent, a photographer can make a digital b/w image as powerful as a traditional print (maybe more so), Bayer array, or no.
When you use a filter in front of the lens the values are already changed and you take the loss of light into account, making a perfect exposed picture. The pixels are in their right place and values. If you use a post processing filtering some values will be radically changed, and this changes will result in big photo quality loss. A non bayer sensor will give a far better result, using a traditional black and white filter.
I am not comparing digital B&W and film, they are far different to allow comparisons.
As many compact models on the market a dedicated non bayer can be a real differentiation for the photo enthusiast compromised in monochromatic images.
Best,
Alex

Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2010, 08:18:21 pm »

Quote from: AlexB2010
When you use a filter in front of the lens the values are already changed and you take the loss of light into account, making a perfect exposed picture. The pixels are in their right place and values. If you use a post processing filtering some values will be radically changed, and this changes will result in big photo quality loss.

That's just a bunch of hooey ...

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/technique...black-white.htm
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 08:37:04 pm by Jeremy Payne »
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AlexB2010

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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2010, 07:05:28 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
That's just a bunch of hooey ...

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/technique...black-white.htm
The link you provided have a very few methods to convert a color image into BW and they not take in account the image loss due to filter usage.
Let’s analyze the matter a little deep.
When you make a photo, what you receive in digital terms is matrix of pixels, each one represented by 3 basic color values (after demosaicing). These matrixes, in their best shape, in areas of soft transition have an interrelation between values of adjacent pixels. A disturbance in this mathematical relation can be assumed as noise if not related in scene detail. When you digitally manipulate this matrix you will disturb this relation making more pixels to differ in a perceptive way we can call noise.
 In soft manipulations the noise is less perceptive. In these terms yellow, orange and light blue filter can be recreated without the observer notice. Deep red and green filter alters the image so drastically that a digital recreation of the same effect leaves a lot of digital artifacts. And that’s what I saying.
 Is obvious that for the “joe average” that uses ISO 800 without seeing any difference from ISO100 the decreased image quality will pass, but for the photographic aficionado is a matter of concern.
Dedicated B&W cameras will deliver better results if done properly.
Best,
Alex    

Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2010, 08:10:33 am »

Quote from: AlexB2010
Alex
whatever
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 08:19:25 am by Jeremy Payne »
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Tony Beach

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John R Smith

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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2010, 05:45:09 am »

The idea of a dedicated B/W digital camera which Alex is suggesting is really not so outrageous, I would suggest, especially so here in Europe where there is a long tradition of dedicated B/W photographers who work in this medium from preference. There is unfortunately a tendency among younger workers in an increasingly colour-dominated field to view B/W as just another sort of "effect" or filter which one can use to make certain shots look more interesting or old-fashioned, rather than having monochrome as the primary objective - indeed, the only objective, for some of us still.

It is certainly possible to have a commercially viable busines making niche products. In that sense, MF digital backs are certainly niche, with a very low global sales volume, but Phase One has made a successful business from them. Think also of tilt-and-shift lenses, large format view cameras, and rangefinder cameras, all of which have always had a relatively small market but which are still manufactured.

A dedicated B/W camera would be perfectly feasible for a company which already has a suitable body and lens system, because only the sensor and firmware would need to be changed. I would have thought it could be viable for Ricoh, or Olympus with their new Pen series, or even at the high end for Leica with a B/W M9. If there were to be real gains in acutance and possibly DR over the colour version, they could have a steady seller.

John
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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 06:16:11 am »

Quote from: John R Smith
The idea of a dedicated B/W digital camera which Alex is suggesting is really not so outrageous

It isn't outrageous ... but it isn't a commercially viable idea ...
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NikoJorj

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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2010, 07:14:09 am »

Quote from: AlexB2010
A small pocketable camera 2 stops more sensitive will be very nice.
Beware not to loose them with filters, then.
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Nicolas from Grenoble
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John R Smith

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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2010, 05:07:25 am »

Quote from: NikoJorj
Beware not to loose them with filters, then.

OK, I know you blokes like to poke fun at us. But, to be fair, diversity has always been one of the major strengths of photography. It is not something to be derided, but rather something to cherish. After all, even now there are plenty of folks out there happily making pictures using wierd stuff likes Holgas, pinhole cameras, making their own photographic paper with brushed-on emulsions, daylight printing and all sorts of other strange diversions. I still like to get out my old quarter plate view camera made in 1928 and shoot 6x9 on a roll-film back. Not everyone (yet) captures digital on the regulation issue Canon or Nikon DSLR. Equally, there are still a few of us out here who would like the opportunity to try a dedicated B/W digital camera or MF back. I like using filters, even though I may lose a stop or two of speed. Especially with the Hasselblads and Rolleis, where there is great pleasure in snapping on that little circle of magically coloured glass with a perfectly machined bayonet mount.

However, you are probably perfectly correct, Jeremy, about the lack of commercial potential. Just a glance at this thread demonstrates how little interest the topic has generated.

John
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 06:58:55 am by John R Smith »
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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2010, 07:04:41 am »

Quote from: John R Smith
OK, I know you blokes like to poke fun at us. But, to be fair, diversity has always been one of the major strengths of photography. It is not something to be derided, but rather something to cherish. After all, even now there are plenty of folks out there happily making pictures using wierd stuff likes Holgas, pinhole cameras, making their own photographic paper with brushed-on emulsions, daylight printing and all sorts of other strange diversions. I still like to get out my old quarter plate view camera made in 1928 and shoot 6x9 on a roll-film back. Not everyone (yet) captures digital on the regulation issue Canon or Nikon DSLR. Equally, there are still a few of us out here who would like the opportunity to try a dedicated B/W digital camera or MF back. I like using filters, even though I may lose a stop or two of speed. Especially with the Hasselblads and Rolleis, where there is great pleasure in snapping on that little circle of magically coloured glass with a perfectly machined bayonet mount.

However, you are probably perfectly correct, Jeremy, about the lack of commercial potential. Just a glance at this thread demonstrates how little interest the topic has generated.

John

Filters have a place in digital photography ... but w/r/t color, I think they are best used to balance the channels to allow the optimal ETTR and not for creative purposes in the field.

I've moved on ... and I've forgotten most of what I pretended to know about film anyway to make room for the new stuff.

Digital is better ... embrace it.
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John R Smith

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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2010, 07:53:56 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
I've moved on ... and I've forgotten most of what I pretended to know about film anyway to make room for the new stuff.

Digital is better ... embrace it.

I think I have to differ with you there. Digital is not "better", it is just a different way of doing things. Rather like wet plates were different from paper negatives, I suppose. And I certainly have "embraced" digital, in fact we use nothing else here at work. Before there were usable and cheap digital cameras, we were scanning colour prints, working on them with Corel Photo Paint and publishing all our report illustrations digitally. I purchased the first digicam we had here, a strange Sony thing which wrote to a 3 1/4 floppy disc. Now we have a cupboard full of Canon and Nikon DSLRs. So I am not without some digital experience. Nonetheless, for my own pleasure, I often choose to shoot with film.

John
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