Hasselblad H4-40 campared to H4-50

[pixjohn]

I am not sure if anyone has compared the Hasselblad H4-40 to H4-50 backs?  It would be nice to see a few examples shot side by side. I know they use 2 different manufactures chips but what difference would I see.  I am not interesed in the megapixel count but the quality.

I currently shoot with a Cambo Wide DS with 24xl  and H camera systems.  Would one back make a difference with the wide angle lenses? Does Hasselblad have any real world samples shot with a tech camera?


I did have a chance to play with the H4-40 and liked my initial impression, but I did not do a thorough shoot with the camera. I am hoping to have the chance to shoot with both backs on my Cambo Wide DS.


John

[Dustbak]

AFAIK, the H4D40 uses a similar type of sensor as the H4D50. A kodak sensor. The 40 sensor is cropped and carries microlenses which is the main difference between the 2.

[David Grover / Capture One]

....Correct

The two sensors are essentially the same, except for the 40 having microlenses and therefore better ISO performance.

The 50 is also a physically larger sensor.  Might be important for your 24XL lens.

David

[Dick Roadnight]

....Correct

The two sensors are essentially the same, except for the 40 having microlenses and therefore better ISO performance.

The 50 is also a physically larger sensor.  Might be important for your 24XL lens.

David

Hi, David.

Does the design of a back with micro-lenses make assumptions as to where the rear element or nodal point of the lens is?

...and consequently is a back with micro-lenses ok/good/ideal for use with view cameras where the nodal point might be offset by 50mm, or 500mm in front of the sensor?

What are the differences between the H3D11-50 back and the H4D-60 back in the respect, and are both/all backs ideal for all applications (given adequate image circle)?  ...and if not, which is ideal for what?

[David Grover / Capture One]

Hi, David.

Does the design of a back with micro-lenses make assumptions as to where the rear element or nodal point of the lens is?

...and consequently is a back with micro-lenses ok/good/ideal for use with view cameras where the nodal point might be offset by 50mm, or 500mm in front of the sensor?

What are the differences between the H3D11-50 back and the H4D-60 back in the respect, and are both/all backs ideal for all applications (given adequate image circle)?  ...and if not, which is ideal for what?

Focus calibration is based on the position of the IR cover glass.  So a sensor with or without microlenses makes no difference.

The 50 and 60 sensors both do not have microlenses and are also different manufacturers.  Kodak and Dalsa.

The 50 is a slightly smaller sensor so you could consider you would get a small amount more movement... if that is important to you.

Microlenses are sometimes not ideal for use with technical cameras where wider angles or greater movements are concerned.  Therefore best to stick with 39, 50 or 60.

[imagetone]

Microlenses are sometimes not ideal for use with technical cameras where wider angles or greater movements are concerned.  Therefore best to stick with 39, 50 or 60.

David, would that comment apply at all to using the HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter?
Regards
Tony

[Dick Roadnight]

Microlenses are sometimes not ideal for use with technical cameras where wider angles or greater movements are concerned.  Therefore best to stick with 39, 50 or 60.

Well, I have a 50, I am about to change it for a 60, and I hope to get a 39 to use with my ELD, P2 and Flexbody, so that is OK with me.

[David Grover / Capture One]

David, would that comment apply at all to using the HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter?
Regards
Tony

There are quite a few users with the HTS and the H3D31, reporting no problems, so in this case my comments don't apply.

[pchong]

As an aside, does anyone have a pic from a sensor with microlens, which shows the color shifts? Would like to see what exactly are the effects we are talking about. Thanks.

[pixjohn]

I guess I was confused and thought the HD40 and HD50 where different chip manufactures. I am now thinking the 40 is not the back for my needs, since I shoot a lot with a Cambo Wide DS.

How is the HD50 high iso shots. After talking to a dealer today, they state its the same chip but the 50 is just a bigger chip. How could it be the same chip if one of the backs has micro lenses? I plan to do a test shoot in a few weeks and will hopefully have both backs to test out. I would also like to test the HD60, but its a little out of the price range I am willing to spend.


Does Hasselblad offer any Trade in programs?

[Dick Roadnight]

As an aside, does anyone have a pic from a sensor with microlens, which shows the color shifts? Would like to see what exactly are the effects we are talking about. Thanks.

I would imagine that the effect would be vignetting... but that would cause colour shift if it did not affect all colours equally. ¿Are the micro-lenses apo-chromatic?

If the micro-lenses collect light from where the designer thought the nodal point would be, and that is where it is, you get improved ISO (light sensitivity), and if it is somewhere else, then you would get worse sensitivity.

If you design/use a range of lenses (for use) with a chip and a camera with no movements, then micro-lenses are (or should be) beneficial.

Did Hasselblad design their lenses for use with the TS adapter, or did they write the software to compensate?

[Dustbak]

I guess I was confused and thought the HD40 and HD50 where different chip manufactures. I am now thinking the 40 is not the back for my needs, since I shoot a lot with a Cambo Wide DS.

How is the HD50 high iso shots. After talking to a dealer today, they state its the same chip but the 50 is just a bigger chip. How could it be the same chip if one of the backs has micro lenses? I plan to do a test shoot in a few weeks and will hopefully have both backs to test out. I would also like to test the HD60, but its a little out of the price range I am willing to spend.


Does Hasselblad offer any Trade in programs?

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/69132.aspx

[Toto]

Well, I have a 50, I am about to change it for a 60, and I hope to get a 39 to use with my ELD, P2 and Flexbody, so that is OK with me.

What are the reasons to jump from the 50 to the 60 ? I'm in trouble to choose between the two of them. The 50 starts at 50 iso and will have longer exposure (4 mn) but the 60 will have unknown exposure time (a great secret lol) and 100 iso  at minimum. We only know that the p65+ back is a great back, but the gap between the two backs doesn't seem that big ...

[Dick Roadnight]

What are the reasons to jump from the 50 to the 60 ? I'm in trouble to choose between the two of them. The 50 starts at 50 iso and will have longer exposure (4 mn) but the 60 will have unknown exposure time (a great secret lol) and 100 iso  at minimum. We only know that the p65+ back is a great back, but the gap between the two backs doesn't seem that big ...

It was 60 I wanted in the first place, and I would not have bought the 50 without the option to upgrade to the 60, which I might as well do while I have the option to do it cost-effectively.

I would like to have the option or 50 iso if it was better than 100.

If a landscape included waves or a waterfall tooo big for my flashes, I might use high ISO for the water and then layer blend in.

From your point of view, there is a big difference in price... do you need the H4 features?

[NeilWhite]

40 or 50 comparison?

I reviewed the H2 a few years back and didn't like the use of micro lenses on chips then (as used in the new H4D-40)  and still don't. The idea is to improve the angle which light/color falls onto each pixel but I don't think it works that well.  Traditional film takes light at any angle but pixels don't like light hitting them at an angle (hence potential fall off at image edges and moire etc). I personally think there is some kind of manufacturing or design trade off going on here really.  This is totally fair though to my mind as it does also explain the large price hike up from the 40 to the 50 though.  

I recently had hands on with both the 50 and the 40 and although it was far from being a technical test I found the color rendition of the 50 to be quite alot better, despite Hasselblad claiming all sorts of goodies for color correction in their software.  As RAW files, the color of the 50 was better to my eye but I can only really speak for clothing and skin tones, the 40 giving slightly more contrasty shots somehow which needed toning down.

In answer to me asking what is the crop factor of the 40 all I got was 'It's close to full frame' but think it's probably 1:2 judging by the fact the pixel size is 6μm, the standard for all large mp backs these days.  

The chip on the 40 seems to be 20% smaller than the 50 at 33.1x44.2 (compared to 36.8x49.1)

The 60 was announced 18 months ago and still no firm news on it's arrival, probably because of Phase One's contract for that chip with Dalsa?  Hasselblad were crying 'foul' over ghost product announcements from other manufacturers yet here we are 18 months later with no further news on the 60 - just an estimate of 2nd qrt 2010?  Maybe? Perhaps?  

The other issue to consider with these cameras is whether you will shoot hand held at times - I understand 60mp chips to be a bit unforgiving hand held so do your homework.  I hand held the 50 and got crystal clear shots as I did with the 40.

Not easy to choose especially considering the large price differentials between the 40, the 50 and the 60.

[bcooter]

Does Hasselblad offer any Trade in programs?