Leaked Canon 5D spec sheet..

[Ben Rubinstein]

Mark, I'm a wedding shooter who regularly shoots with my camera in hand or on strap for 12-13 hours straight. I don't have to worry about rain, I only ever use the center focus point, try not to drop it and shoot 95% of the time in manual with auto flash. For me the 5D, as long as it has FF and at least 11megapix of resolution, is a better solution than the 1Ds, ####, until I went digital I was shooting weddings with two Elan II's and that was good enough. Weight matters.

For me it's an ideal solution, however it is kind of stupid that a pro body like the 1Ds could be considered inferior to a 20D like body just because of the chip, didn't work that way in the film days and is still topsy turvy.

I seriously wanted the 1Ds to be my camera body for the next 5+ years. I thought I would be getting at least a 10D but with higher res and FF.
It was really hurting to find out just how bad the noise was, how slow and unclear the review was, how bad the banding in the blacks, how bad the battery life and heavy the batteries and just how bleeding heavy that beast is with a 24-70L and flash after 4 hours.....
But, I learned to get my exposures right each time, to trust my meter and not need the review and I was ok with everything but the weight. The resolution was not a factor, I wish my technique matched what that beast can do (it can't).

This 5D could be the camera that gives me the next 5+ years.

That said, if I was primarily a landscape or wildlife shooter, if I needed to trust my body implicitly wherever I go, be it to the football game or to Nambia I wouldn't think twice, the 1Ds would be it. Luckily wedding shooting is far more 'civil' to camera gear.

I was shooting pics of the 1Ds for ebay in a friends office earlier. He's a journalist shooting with the D70s and Fuji S2. He has pictures in national newspapers about 3-4 times a week as well as shooting more weddings than I do. He tried my 1Ds with lens and flash in his hand, gave it back and said that he would go mad having to hold that for even an hour of straight shooting....
BTW I was using his D70s to take the pictures @ 400iso, the noise on that thing is worse than my 1Ds and the camera seems to be sharpening the RAW's slightly as well, oh and my eye is hurting from squinting down that really tiny viewfinder, hey ho for FF!



Bye Bye.....

Michael is unusually quiet......

Quiet?

I'm just resting.  ::

Michael

[Ben Rubinstein]

OK, Bernard, I'm open minded about it, lets see if it's worth the change compared to the 5D.

Price: ~$3500 list to approx $4500 street
Weight: 850g to 1000g without batteries but I would use the BP so probably the same.
Crop: FF to 1.5X but you say that the viewfinder is just as good.
Flash: best in the world + includes auto flash, compared to awful ETTL. I use auto flash mainly anyway.
Lenses: I would need a 17-55 f2.8 instead of the 24-70L (I'm assuming it's AFS otherwise forget it) and an 80-ish mm portrait lens. I would also need something to replace my 70-200 f4L. This could get expensive. The 17-55 is 200 grams lighter.
Iso: useable 50-3200 compared to 100-800
Feel and Ergonmics: I like canon, could get used to the Nikon, don't like the rear wheel placement on the Nikon as opposed to Canon.

Pricewise I would probably lose quite a bit on the switch, weight would probably be the same give or take. I would get far better fill flash, indoors I'm happy with auto. I would have to go back to carrying more than one lens which I hate, plus when I need shallow DOF for portraiture I'll need more working room which I also hate. I haven't the two here so I'll have to take your word for it about the viewfinder.

TBH, if the price were the same and I could swop my lenses for the equivelent Nikon then I would do it for the flash system alone. I would also have a steep 'nikon' learning curve which I wouldn't have time to work out as I need to earn my living.

When the time comes I will take both cameras side by side, compare how they feel, how the shots come out using the lenses and get a feel for the lenses and how ETTL II compares in the field to iTTL. If I can work the price levels around then as I said, I'm open minded. As I said, it's the flash that will sell it for me, if there isn't enough difference then I'll save my money and stick with what I know, if it is and I like the lenses then I may switch.

[Paul Sumi]

 It'd be as big a price point breakthrough as the intro of the D30 and the original Digital Rebel.

3459 whatsits? Euro?

If it's Euro, then it's aimed square between 20D and 1D MkII.

I'd have called it a price point breakthrough of that magnitude if it included dust/water resistance and cost something closer to the 20D.

Not to be contrary  , but a Canon FF DSLR for 1/2 or 2/3rds the price of the 1D2s ISN'T a price breakthrough?  I don't remember for sure but wouldn't that be even lower than the Kodak DSLR (which was built on a Nikon prosumer SLR chassis)?

Unless the cost of FF sensors has come down dramatically, then the only way for the price of the camera to come down is with economies like lesser autofocus, slower FPS and not having weather sealing.  Besides, Canon has to reserve some goodies for their flagship 1Dx cameras.

[Ben Rubinstein]

Absolutely perfect, I called up my dealer and am top of the list if it exists!    

I'm having an operation in the beginning of September and will be out of photography for up to 3 months, selling my 1Ds (which I only bought for the FF sensor) in September and getting the 5D in December means that I shouldn't lose any money and get a lighter, smaller, faster, ETTL II, more noise free body while losing the 45AF sensors that I never use and weather proofing that I wouldn't rely on anyway, oh and a bunch of weight.
Every time I get back from a job with the 1Ds I have a thick red mark on my neck from the weight of that beast + flash + L lens for 5+ hours at a time (even with my op-tech strap).

I wish I wasn't so dependant on the RRS 'L' brackets though, first the 10D then 1Ds now this, they are making money out of me...

[milanissimo]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not into Canon-Nikon war, because I think theese 2 companies are the best we have. You cannot make a mistake buying either of them. But Niknon threw 4, no, 5 cameras on the market in 1 year (D70, D70s, D2Hs, D2X, D50). Why not D100 replacement, which is a 3 year old camera now? Personally, I will be waiting for this D200, or whatever it will be called, because it will force Canon to do upgrades (not just adding 1 or 2 megapixels) on the next generations of 20D (as D70 forced them to produce such a fantastic camera as 20D is).
Well.. I will not upgrade 20D it until it wears out.. so I could take a while (about 600 pics taken so far   )

[Mark D Segal]

One of the ironies of the DSLR environment is that professional photographers highly value virtually unbreakable camera bodies that will endure indefinitely but house technology that becomes dated within 12 to 24 months. And there is good reason for both.

For "prosumers" like me who can't write off the investment against our income taxes and don't intend to invest $8000 every two years in a new camera, if we buy a built-to-last-forever camera body, we do so for a model whose embodied technology we believe will meet our needs for the time we intend to keep the camera, regardless of what gets developed in the interval. But of course there is no peace of mind in that because - witness this discussion thread - "the time we intend to keep the camera" just gets challenged all over again when something that may be better in this or that respect threatens to or actually does hit the market.

My wish list in a DSLR hasn't been mentioned yet - so I'll table it now - it is very short - I'd like to see a full frame 35mm sensor design 11+ MP that doesn't need anti-aliasing. When that happens the images will be crystal sharp in RAW format and sharpening algorythms will be a thing of the past. If that hits the market for a reasonable price I may be prepared to trade-in the 1Ds for whatever it may worth then.

[Ray]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ho!Ho! Ho! Hee! Heee! hee!         . I still can't stop laughing 10 minutes later.

[Mark D Segal]

While technical change is notoriously hazardous to predict, I think there is logic to a view that because cropped sensors first appeared for "techno-economic" reasons, over time as sensor manufacturing technology advances and volume production increases even more, the cost of producing "full frame" sensors with ever greater resolution will keep declining to the point that cropped sensors will occupy an ever declining share of the professional and prosumer DSLR market. The evolution of this general tendancy may be protracted over some years and some cropped sensor models will remain available, because they do have several advantages that a certain market niche will continue to appreciate. But longer term, I would place my bets on FF in the prosumer/professional DSLR market.

[Ray]

When you compare a 5D with a 1Ds you may be comparing apples and oranges. Yes, the stated specs of the rumoured 5D are an evolution compared with the 1Ds, but what do we know about the build quality? If the rumoured 5D becomes a real camera, then we will know whether Canon is maintaining a build quality differential between the 1 series and everything else they make. It would make commercial sense for them to do so. Until we know more, it is premature to talk about anything crumbling.

The 'crumbling' in my original comment refers to the concept that full frame cameras will always remain too expensive for anyone except the professional photographer and the wealthy amateur. In other words, there would be little downward pressure on prices of FF cameras because the amateur market is adequately served by cropped format cameras.

I think it unlikely that I'll be buying this camera if it's as high as A$6000, although I did pay A$5,100 (without flash card and spare battery) for my first digital camera, the D60.

I've never had any problems with build quality with any of the cameras I've ever owned. They all seem to be far more robust in practice than I imagine them to be.

[Ben Rubinstein]

OK, I've given up any doubting at all, anyone want a boxed 1Ds, #16,663 shutter thingys, few tiny scratches on hotshoe, £2400 ONO from the 29th of this month? includes 2 extra batteries.

I'm keeping my 24-70L though. A 24-105 f4L, although the IS would seriously tempt me, would not I feel be good enough for landscape work where technically primes are the best solution. Now if I could afford both...

[DanPatrick]

The new Nikon D2X is able to switch to a higher magnification by using less than all of the sensor.  This can be assigned to a function key, which makes the switch almost instantaneous.  Anyone know if the Canon 5D will have this very useful capability?  It would seem even more advantages - with less loss in quality - when starting with a full frame sensor like the 5D's.
Thanks, Dan

[Mark D Segal]

Bernard, I thought it was the other way around - that the lenses had to catch up with the sensors, because the sensors have such fine resolution that they are merciless in showing the limitations of the lenses - whether it is Canon or Nikon - same principle.

[RobertJ]

This isn't meant to be a small version of a 1 series camera.  This camera sits in a whole different line.  Why should you expect it to have weather sealing, faster FPS, and 45 AF points?  I think the specs are fantastic in my opinion.

T-1000

[jani]

Keep in mind that we're discussing a ghost here.

Not to be contrary  , but a Canon FF DSLR for 1/2 or 2/3rds the price of the 1D2s ISN'T a price breakthrough?

Yes, it is, but not like the D30 or the 300D. That was my point.

I don't remember for sure but wouldn't that be even lower than the Kodak DSLR (which was built on a Nikon prosumer SLR chassis)?

The Kodak Pro SLR/c with nearly 14 Mpx costs about USD 4500, which is almost exactly the same price.

Unless the cost of FF sensors has come down dramatically, then the only way for the price of the camera to come down is with economies like lesser autofocus, slower FPS and not having weather sealing.

The cost of FF sensors with nearly 13 Mpx is necessarily lower than FF sensors with nearly 17 Mpx; there is a lower risk of significant errors in the production process, simply because of the reduced complexity.

The prospect of mass production can also reduce the necessary profit margin per chip, if any.

By how much? Hard to predict for someone not working with the real numbers for the 17 Mpx chip.

Besides, Canon has to reserve some goodies for their flagship 1Dx cameras.

Oh, absolutely, I'm not saying that they shouldn't.

Just like I have to reserve my enthusiasm for something better.

But see boku's posts in another discussion thread here, mentioning similarly weighted rumours about the 3D.

[Ben Rubinstein]

I wondered about this, and this is why a different body like this rumored 5D makes more sense. What exactly does the 20D lack that it needs an overhall in the shape of a new update so soon? Remember it is the digital equivelent of the EOS 30N not the 1V.

The resolution is pretty #### good, still the head of the field and it beats the D70s which is its competitor by a fair margin with a bunch of other points excepting flash. I think that the 20D is feature wise reaching very close to saturation for it's position in the canon line-up.

The D200 would be a competitor of the 5D, i.e. 'semi-pro' bodies, like the F100/EOS 3 whose position they would be taking. The price/features war of fall 2005 will be in that zone, not the 20D/D70s zone.

Canon said a while back that they are seeking to amalgamate the 1D/s bodies, now with the D2X they will be trying to impliment that fast. The D200 will occupy a market position unfilled by canon which is why a 5D, especially with the wow factor of FF makes sense, Let battle be joined!

[61Dynamic]

Some problems with that:

1. The 10-22 is an EF-S lens : It's limited to EF-S capable bodies. Of which there are none that excede 8mp.
2. That lens is a zoom. There are those who prefer primes.
3. people who already have wide-angles need a full-frame camera.
4. A 24mm Zeiss lens is not 24mm on a APS-C camera and last I checked, Zeiss (or other 3rd parties of equal caliber) is not making a 15mm wide for the Canon EF-S mount.
5. A 50mm may be the equiv. to 80mm on a APS-C camera but the DOF and distortion is not the same as a 80mm. Another example: I'd like to shoot a normal lens (50mm) without having the perspective/barrel distortion of a 28mm lens (not to mention the optical quality and speed differences available between the two focal lengths).
6. Shallow DOF, yes please.
7. FF D-SLRs have better viewfiders.

My point is, despite wether you may think it makes sence or not, there are people who need/want a full-frame camera and there is no croped camera that fits their needs. There also seem to be enough of a demand for it for Canon to develop another FF camera (assuming the 5D is legit).

Personaly, I work in the wide to normal range (mostly normal) and the crop-factor is nothing but an obnoxious hinderance for me.

[tft3101]

5D MkII??
 

[Ray]

As someone else mentioned earlier, are you going into a war zone? The more robust the body and the more waterproof the better, but most camera users are not in the habit of dropping their camera on concrete or in a river. If you are, then of course that might be a good reason to opt for the D2X.

I've used my 20D in the desert in Dubai, by the way. No dust problems so far   .

[Mark D Segal]

pom, do you seriously think you should put your 1Ds up for sale before the new model is even on the market, tested by the usual gurus and you have examined it yourself?