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Author Topic: Professional Photographers' Institutions  (Read 12279 times)

Rob C

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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2010, 12:28:47 pm »

As ever, Dick, it's basically a lonely furrow we plough.

Rob C

Kirk Gittings

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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2010, 02:12:02 pm »

Rob C
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Frankly, whilst you could jump from am to pro very quickly in my day if you had the money

I'm not sure what you mean exactly or when your "day" was, but (I'm 60 this year and been professional since 1978), but in my "day" ("78 through today) turning pro was never quick or ever a question of money. Have I misunderstood you? In the day, one could "call" themselves a pro by simply buying some business cards (today launching a website), but "being" a pro is and always was another question.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 02:19:54 pm by Kirk Gittings »
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2010, 02:50:05 pm »

Quote from: Kirk Gittings
Rob C


I'm not sure what you mean exactly or when your "day" was, but (I'm 60 this year and been professional since 1978), but in my "day" ("78 through today) turning pro was never quick or ever a question of money. Have I misunderstood you? In the day, one could "call" themselves a pro by simply buying some business cards (today launching a website), but "being" a pro is and always was another question.
I think that digital has inspired thousands of amateurs to call themselves professionals.

I was also 60 last year, and I have been doing part-time professional photography on and off since 1973.

My wedding a few years ago was a typical experience with an experienced, established professional photographer... to cut a long story short, the only photo that got framed or displayed was taken by a guest!
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Rob C

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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2010, 05:01:55 pm »

Quote from: Kirk Gittings
Rob C


I'm not sure what you mean exactly or when your "day" was, but (I'm 60 this year and been professional since 1978), but in my "day" ("78 through today) turning pro was never quick or ever a question of money. Have I misunderstood you? In the day, one could "call" themselves a pro by simply buying some business cards (today launching a website), but "being" a pro is and always was another question.




Kirk

I started in '60 as a trainee in an industrial in-house unit and went out on my own in '66. My experience was that the competition that came along was much younger than I - perhaps 20 years of age? - and owned one basic camera/lens. These guys came and went and some fortunate ones came armed with family connections that provided city centre studios or west end apartments. Their nett effect was to drive prices down and eff up the market. Now, the older established studios weren't a lot better either since some of them were very cheap indeed, paid peanuts to staff. That fact was the first prompter to going solo: either one had a life or did something else that had a future. But equipment sufficient to exist, or at least to start, was not expensive: I had a used Rollei T, an Ekakta and a very inexpensive enlarger. That's why I have often said that I could never have financed starting up today with the same financial resources that were open to me.

I don't think I suggested that staying in photography was easy, though!

My driving passion had been fashion and yes, I did get to do several advertising shoot trips for British Vogue/International Wool Secretariat etc. (I think my first one was twenty-eight pages or something lke that) but I think that I was simply too late: the pulling in of financial aid from the fibre manufacturers, the DuPont/Monsantos of this world, in the mid-seventies meant that much of the work I did came to an end because the companies themselves could no longer afford to keep sending me out around the world and even the huge retail chain stores thought twice about buying space in high-end magazines. I was based in Scotland and you'd have thought - as did I - that all that Scottish knitwear would go on for ever. It did not. It was mostly choked up by larger companies outside the country and what was left ended up being serviced via PR groups in London. That was what led me away into design, photography and production of bespoke company calendars - thank God! - it paid our keep and more. At the time, the extra stuff from those calendar shoots provided stock material as a bonus. But as I said, I still believe I was just about five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age.

Rob C
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 05:04:49 pm by Rob C »
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Jeremy Roussak

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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2010, 03:41:22 am »

Quote from: Rob C
I still believe I was just about five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age.

Rob C
Rob, everyone in every profession has always been five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age. I certainly was.

Where would we be without nostalgia?

Jeremy
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:42:06 am by kikashi »
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Rob C

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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2010, 05:16:35 am »

Quote from: kikashi
Rob, everyone in every profession has always been five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age. I certainly was.

Where would we be without nostalgia?

Jeremy





I take yor point, Jeremy, but I also believe that some such notions are fairly visible from the evidence. In photography, there was a certain measure of that when some of the big photographers in London started to abandon their own studios because they could no longer afford to keep them. I let my Scottish one go because studio work was more or less a thing of the past for me, then, it started to return for a bit - just long enough to tempt me into building a smaller version at home. It proved a blip - expensive one - and I eventually decided to get the hell out of it and move abroad because most of my work depended on good weather.

That move was very influenced by the calendar business and also stock, but we all know what happened to stock! I was lucky enough to be with Tony Stone during the final good years and I did get a few good sales, but even the agents started to feel the pinch. I don't imagine twenty-cent pics would ever have been their first idea of a good time! Their golden age has gone too.

Rob C

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2010, 06:06:35 am »

Quote from: kikashi
Rob, everyone in every profession has always been five to ten years too late to catch the Golden Age. I certainly was.

Where would we be without nostalgia?

Jeremy
...and how do we create the next golden age of photography?
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Rob C

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« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2010, 11:30:41 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
...and how do we create the next golden age of photography?




We don't.

Rob C

JoeKitchen

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« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2010, 03:26:30 pm »

We live in the golden age, whether you think so you not, and 50 or 60 years from, those will to live a golden age.  Get the point?

If you walk around like you missed it, you'll never get any where.  Times change, and you have to change with it in everything you do, including marketing.  You want the "new golden age," start using modern tools in your marketing, like Linkedin, Facebook, Twitter.  I have read so many case studies on small (very small) businesses using these sites to get very rewarding assignments and jobs.  I am starting to see success from using them and I have only been really using them for 2 months.
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Jeremy Roussak

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« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2010, 03:01:59 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
...and how do we create the next golden age of photography?
Toning.

Jeremy
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Rob C

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« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2010, 04:39:50 am »

Quote from: JoeKitchen
We live in the golden age, whether you think so you not, and 50 or 60 years from, those will to live a golden age.  Get the point?

If you walk around like you missed it, you'll never get any where.  Times change, and you have to change with it in everything you do, including marketing.  You want the "new golden age," start using modern tools in your marketing, like Linkedin, Facebook, Twitter.  I have read so many case studies on small (very small) businesses using these sites to get very rewarding assignments and jobs.  I am starting to see success from using them and I have only been really using them for 2 months.





Joe, it isn't anything to do with new forms of marketing; such methods simply direct some available work to wherever. The point that you are missing is that both quantity and value (financial) of photography available has been crippled. Was a time a lot of us were quite well off; I no longer know any of us, non-mythicals, that is, who is now making pots of gold.

Simply working your ass off is no judgement of any Golden Age; it is measured in reward both financial and spiritual. You can work from seven until seven or eight or even through the night, but when you realise that the guy building the road makes more than you do, I fear any GA is largely of the mind. Where the many guys who, like myself, once flew off with an armful of models to top hotels wherever they decided was going to make a great location, spend a couple of weeks there and feel really alive? It's become so rare now that it's news. As I mentioned before, when I came in, I do believe it was already more or less during the decline of said GA. Do you remember Sed cards, index cards by any name, when so many girls had exotic photography locations plastered all over the place? Every second Page 3 model had the Seychelles, the Bahamas, and credit lines to show they were not fakes. Maybe you are looking in the wrong place for the clue: ask the model agencies how it has changed. Of course, you run the danger of bumping into corporate-speak, where everybody is doing better than they ever did before, regardless of how many go out of business. Honesty isn't good news.

Rob C

gwhitf

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« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2010, 08:24:07 am »

Quote from: Rob C
Maybe you are looking in the wrong place for the clue: ask the model agencies how it has changed. Of course, you run the danger of bumping into corporate-speak, where everybody is doing better than they ever did before, regardless of how many go out of business. Honesty isn't good news.

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/03/11/sto...00-assignments/

Comments are especially interesting.
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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2010, 08:59:54 am »

Quote from: kikashi
Toning.

Jeremy
+1

 
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asf

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« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2010, 01:03:24 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/03/11/sto...00-assignments/

Comments are especially interesting.

It is interesting that when I started there was no such thing as a $200 job. We couldn't imagine a job that wouldn't pay that for an assistant (well, maybe $175 for an asst was the low end).
And when I was an assistant long ago I was never working alone, there was always at least 1 other asst, and we all had as much work as we could accept (although I don't remember how we got booked before cell phones). The photogs we worked for were raking in cash, and as assts we earned more then than it seems these young struggling starting photogs are now.
Now is not a golden age to anyone who has been in this business for more than 2 years. The money (and power) started flowing away from photographers many many years ago and it will never go back to the way it used to be.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2010, 01:28:06 pm »

I see it as EEdward, Andre Napier, and gwhitf

And DHB...I have belong to a few...as I am sure others I listed at somep point have.

And Creativity is NOT what is missing....although some are stronger in a specialty than others...but it is the relationship you create that keeps the client, and what you offer.

I have been a "fan" since 10 years back to Andre and it is always nice to see his posts on the tech side, and printing. I have always appreciated his feedback and his commitment to be helpful, and I am so glad to see it here in a completely different side of the business.  It is individual characters like this that help someone...So far spending hundereds of dollars, and joining a group had gotten me a dsicount here and there.  

I DO see a need for a mmbership for legal service, as this model is available to general business, there would be a nice specialty for a legal service you pay as a member and you get 20-30 lawyers (depending on location), not one, go over the case and get you results.  Luckily I have a firm I am very happy with, but I can see this service of value.
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asf

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« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2010, 02:29:45 pm »

Quote from: Yelhsa
Define what is meant by a $200 Job or $200 gigs ?

Passport picture, simple table-top pack-shot, one image, single media use, personal use only, one time only use, non-exclusive use, etc, etc.

It's often not a Job... it's more like an Opportunity - to produce some images, that others will want to use.

Did you read through the link? I don't think there is a single definition, but suffice it to say the jobs these guys are being offered seem to be becoming the norm. I have heard about these jobs, never come across one, but my assistants have. And the "clients" are commonly grabbing all the rights so resale is getting squeezed as well. As I said before, when I started there wasn't such a thing, not even close ($1200 was low for a single editorial image) at least not in my market, and now there is.

Yes, sometimes it's an opportunity. Commercial assignments have always provided an opportunity to shoot images, but the compensation/budgets have shriveled, as have the quality assignments that allow those opportunities.
The glass can be seen as half full, but that doesn't mean it's potable.
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2010, 03:19:20 pm »

Things has changed for many reasons. The main one is the change in a way businesses approach advertising. Years ago the main way of advertising were TV commercials and print adds. Advertising was very expensive as there was limited number of TV channels and magazines and only the top companies could afford the media. Small companies were relying on word of mouth and local promotion. Handful of photographers were producing majority of work and cashing big time. I remember times were scanning one image for print cost $250. Photographers needed to produce few master pieces a year and live a great life. With the invention on Internet and cable TV a lot has changed. Suddenly Local Cable TV became affordable to every advertiser.  For example current price for Comcast 30 sec add on E channel or CNN in Chicago area is $20 per zone ( about 100,000 subscribers ). New advertisers came to market with their small budgets and demand for lots of production. Obviously the adds are not produced by a crew of 20 with 12K lights but rather a lone men with HD video for a grand total production cost of $1000. Internet created a demand for millions of images used for website advertising of small companies. The quantity demand and the technology advance lower the price. Stock photos were created and became affordable to every one. Digital cameras became user friendly allowing a lot of people to shot acceptable work. High ISO advances eliminated the need for expensive lighting systems for lots of production.
Editorials: there is less and less magazine advertisers on local level. Magazines lost revenue and therefor cut down on editorials. A lot magazines went bankrupt. Ten years ago there were 12 Polish language magazines in Chicago. Today there is just one and barely surviving. People get their news from internet and therefor do not buy magazines. Who cares about calendars today?
Today we live in completely different world. Most of us in general love the advances and changes the time brought. As a photographers we have to accept it as well. There is no going back in time.
There is still a way to find a golden era in photography today. You just have to forget about the nostalgia and adopt to new ways. There is lots of ways to make tons of money in photography today. I personally feel no recession as our studio is busier and more profitable than ever. We just accepted the changes and decided to swim with the river and not against it.
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asf

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« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2010, 05:06:29 pm »

Quote from: Yelhsa
... an Opportunity to produce some images, that others will want to use - is what I said.

In those instances where they are able to hold on to the rights and the image sees the light of day and it's worth something to someone else (and those people that could use it see it), yes. I can't imagine a lot of these $200 gigs meet these criteria. After expenses they can't be coming away with much if not often losing money. These kids are all racing to give away their work in the hope that someone sees it and cares, or to justify their SVA BFA to the rents.
If you smell opportunity here why aren't you taking advantage?
As I said I haven't been offered this type of job, but I know it would have to be a pretty special opportunity for me to even think twice about doing it.
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2010, 05:08:17 pm »

Quote from: Yelhsa
Y

Would agree - you just need to think differently now and stop viewing it as a Job.

With all due respect,
on contrary it is a job now I just need to think differently and stop viewing it as an art. My one year old AFI 7 shows 69,573 actuation and paid for itself in the first couple months.
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