Professional Photographers' Institutions

[AlexM]

What a great discussion. I was about to start this topic myself.
ASMP site is great. They offer a lot of useful information even to non-members. I guess this is out of desperation because of all those thousands of photographers who emerged in the last few years and unknowingly destroy the industry.

I wonder if you guys have any thoughts on Professional Photographers of Canada and their provincial branches? Or ASMP would be the leader?

Thanks for the great information!
Alex

[Dick Roadnight]

I don't believe there are many like you Dick.
Would love to see some of the stuff you are creating with the view camera and the Metzs.
Nick-T

My health is now much improved, and I hope to get the H4D-60 this month... so I do not want to spend much time and trouble getting the 50 set up.

...and I have 4 1,500 ws elinchromes as well as the Metzs

[AndreNapier]

I guess this is out of desperation because of all those thousands of photographers who emerged in the last few years and unknowingly destroy the industry.
Alex

Let me start with stating that I love photography. I am 47 and I love it since I was a child.

In my opinion they did not destroy the industry they just changed it. In order to fully understand the changes one has to ask what defines professional photographer. Last time I checked I did not find any requirements of knowledge, talent, ethics, artistry, formal education, belonging to organizations or passing any exams. The only definition was that you have to make 50% of your income from photography.
Having said that professional photographer is not any different from a professional singer. There are people who sing in a shower, sing at a wedding, sing at a club and there are those that sell platinum albums.
They are defined by their talent and their marketing ability. Anybody can make a picture anybody can sing. Value of photo image or a song is define by market demand.
In case of commercial photography value of an image is directly related to the impact it makes on advertising campaign. Hiring company pays for one's talent and if they can obtain the same quality of talent for less they will go for it. If one's talent can not be matched one can demand top pay and will get it. Times has changed. Demand has changed. Technology has changed. There is no stopping young talents whose ONLY option to enter the overcrowded photography market is to lower the prices and offer more than the older generation did. Am I happy about it? Hell not! Can I change it?  Hell not! I can only adjust or disappear.
If a company that used to hire me chooses to go with 20 years old photographer with 5D  it means that I do something wrong or maybe that the kid does something right. Maybe he is the one who will lead the 21 century and I am just the older generation who does not adapt to new reality. Maybe my opinion about my talent was overrated or maybe new reality is a entirely like the Chinese toys.
 
20 years ago the only way to watch a video at home was to buy a $1000.00 VCR and to rent a cassette for 24 hours. There was your neighborhood Video Store. Along the way came Blockbusters and Hollywood Videos
offering 5 days rentals, no late fees, timeless rentals. Neighborhoods stores disappeared overnight. Along the way came Netflix and it goes on.  Unless we accept and adopt the changes we will disappear as well.
Old generation historically disapproved of the ways of new generation but at the end it is always called progress.

Andre Napier

[Dick Roadnight]

In order to fully understand the changes one has to ask what defines professional photographer. Last time I checked I did not find any requirements of knowledge, talent, ethics, artistry, formal education, belonging to organizations or passing any exams. The only definition was that you have to make 50% of your income from photography.

Andre Napier

If a part-time professional photographer is thinking about going pro, and giving up his day job he might benefit considerably from membership of a pro. photo. inst. ... even if only pointing out to him that it is an over-subscribed industry and don't give up your day job if you have a mortgage to pay.

Why only take people on when they have burnt their boats and got established?

[E_Edwards]

I a part-time professional photographer is thinking about going pro, and giving up his day job he might benefit considerably from membership of a pro. photo. inst. ... even if only pointing out to him that it is an over-subscribed industry and don't give up your day job if you have a mortgage to pay.

Why only take people on when they have burnt their boats and got established?

Now is not a very good time to start a new business in photography, this is all about contacts, and you gain contacts once you've been around for a while and people know about you and recommend you for what you have to offer.

I went fully self employed only when my income from photography started to exceed what I was getting from my regular job. I waited till I had repeat clients, not just one-offs.

It will help a lot if your friend has something unique to offer, coupled with a lot of self confidence, but most importantly an air of competence and professionalism, i.e. you have to have something about your personality, the way you talk and the way you conduct your business that makes clients want to use you.

A photographer's institution won't give you any of that, believe me, I have had friends with lots of letters after their names who don't posses the ingredients necessary to succeed in business, any business, not just photography.

In any case, paying a year subscription is less than a good night out, so if it makes your friend happy...

E

[Dick Roadnight]

Now is not a very good time to start a new business in photography, this is all about contacts, and you gain contacts once you've been around for a while and people know about you and recommend you for what you have to offer.

I went fully self employed only when my income from photography started to exceed what I was getting from my regular job. I waited till I had repeat clients, not just one-offs.

It will help a lot if your friend has something unique to offer, coupled with a lot of self confidence, but most importantly an air of competence and professionalism, i.e. you have to have something about your personality, the way you talk and the way you conduct your business that makes clients want to use you.

A photographer's institution won't give you any of that, believe me, I have had friends with lots of letters after their names who don't posses the ingredients necessary to succeed in business, any business, not just photography.

In any case, paying a year subscription is less than a good night out, so if it makes your friend happy...

E

It's me I am talking about, but I am retired, so I do not have to decide when to give up employment.

I am working very much on the idea of offering something unique, an will try to specialize in anything you cannot do with a DSLR, and a set of electronic-shuttered Schneider Apo-Digitars will let me tackle e.g. work that needs a shutter-beam and a full range of movements.

It might be a good time to buy used kit... but new kit is expensive with the pound cheap compared to the Euro.

I thought I would accumulate a stock of good landscape/pictorial while I am getting up to speed and building up the commercial side.

[TMARK]

I couldn't agree more.

Only one client/agency/agent/publisher... has ever asked me what camera or format I use and that was a camera manufacturer who simply wanted confirmation that I had used their product.

Yup.  The only time a client asks about gear is when the AB is a photo nut.  A good friend, an AD at a big agency, loves photography and loves to talk cameras.  Other than him, no one cares.

[teddillard]

Quite an interesting thread...  I've got to say, every time I see the title pop up I think of a line in an old Tom Waits song- "Marriage is a great institution, but who wants to live in an institution?"    

I started a commercial studio in the late '70s.  I was shooting for a newspaper and weddings when I was in High School, in the early and mid '70s.  I continued until around 2000.  I had some good, national-scale clients, I did OK.  ...but one of the reasons I shut the studio down was that I felt the industry was starting to reap the results of long years of selling itself down the long-term river for some seriously self-centered, short-sighted, and greed-based goals.  

I was always in the "lone gunslinger" business model, I didn't even really like working with assistants and the local ASMP and other organizations seemed completely ineffectual at best and like a glorified photo club at worst.  Towards the end of my studio days the APA started up and it showed promise, but by that time I really didn't take much notice.  

I can point to a few examples to illustrate my dismay...  the recent sale of an amateur image to Time for a cover usage, for $50.  In the '90s there was this story in PDN- a couple actually.  One was about how photographers shouldn't mind that their dayrates had stayed level for 20 years, because "they have such a great lifestyle".  The other was a story about a photographer shooting for the then-new PhotoDisc.  It was when they started assigning clip-stock work as a complete buyout and this photographer was gushing about getting to shoot this stuff at $5000/day with absolutely no regard for the implications of this type of work.  (By my guess, every disc he shot at $5000/day put about 100 photographers out of work.)  I canceled my PDN subscription then, and never renewed...

Back when I started, the idea of an association or, dare I say it, a union, dictating standards and practices was abhorrent to me.  Having a professional association helping me with insurance and legal issues seemed nice but not worth the white noise.  Looking back, I'd say that is my biggest regret about how the industry worked.  Every little branch on the photography tree treats copyright, use, fee structure and standards in it's own way.  Every photographer seems to vehemently rail against anything threatening their independence...  yet I feel the state of our industry now is where we are because of this attitude.

And I really don't have a solution to offer...

I think maybe a year ago I started a thread here on file delivery standards...  it got to be a pretty spirited discussion, but, in fact, many common conclusions were reached.  I proposed we take everything that was said and try to establish a set of community standards.  The thread immediately died.  

It was a little comical, but still, it's how things seem to go in these discussions...  I've seen it for over three decades now.  It would seem to me that, in this time especially where everyone seems to think that they can pick up a camera and charge money for photography, the professional community would want to band together and establish standards, policies, credentials...  but I don't see it ever happening.

[gwhitf]

I just found that, as a young photographer coming into the business, there was a great amount of information at ASMP and EP. You just use what you want out of it and discard the rest; it's all about your commitment to doing business in a way that fits into your clients' industry standards. You learn how to speak your clients' language. (And that leads to profit).

After my initial bonding with other ASMP members in my own town, I later discovered that it was not this way in other cities. In the larger markets, there seemed to be much more paranoia and not many photographers talked amongst themselves. Chicago seemed to be the worst, followed by LA, and then NYC. In those cities, it was every man for himself, for the most part.

I guess photographers rank right in there between musicians and fine artists, when it comes to a general willingness to learn about business practices. Honestly, many seem to actually take pride in being the lone wolf, and maintaining their boastful, defiant ignorance. That, to me, is what leads to this Wild Wild West mentality. I guess if photographers were destined to work in office buildings, and run with the herd, there might be a different climate, but so many photographers that I know would not be seen dead trying to learn about business, or the history of how photographers before them fought for copyright. I never understood it -- why the threat of showing up and learning how to sync your business up to the manner that their (desired) clients worked, in order to speak intelligently when Estimating. Yet, there they were, with their tight black jeans and sunglasses, still sharing a 2-BR apartment with two other guys in Brooklyn, trying to make rent each month.

The funny part, (not funny ha-ha), was that anytime that some client used one of their precious pictures without permission, or copied something, or ran past usage parameters, these loser photographers were the first one to stand up and start screaming that "ASMP ought to do something to help them", when they never joined anything ever, or never learned how to protect themselves. I used to get phone calls asking for advice in these situations, and then Caller ID was invented, and that solved everything. Good riddance.

I have thrown in the towel on photographers ever uniting. I'm back to every man for himself. If you're young, maybe good to join ASMP or APA, and learn the basics, but just don't put on your pollyanna glasses, and think that everyone else is playing by the same rules.

[E_Edwards]

There are may things that would be different in the ideal world of photography.

-In the ideal world we would charge a decent fee, clients would always comply with copyright rules, we would be paid on time, at the point when we deliver the work.

-In the ideal world we would have some competition, just enough to push us to do things differently or better, but not too much to worry us about loosing clients to other photographers.

-In the ideal world, we would be artists, we would only do work that demands creativity and the routine and boring images would be the job for the apprentice, as part of his 7 years of slavery needed to qualify to enter this sacred profession.

-In an ideal world, cameras that the general public could use would only produce blurry 10x10 pixel images, professional cameras would only be sold to qualified members for vast amounts of money and they would only be triggered by optometrics that recognised the said photographer, so they could not be sold in the black market to anyone trying to set up business and undercut us.

-In an ideal world, art directors would not be called art directors, they would be called mingling in-betweens wanting to take their cut by talking endless rubbish, they would be confined to the vacuous room, together with any clients who dared mention anything like "can we try this" at the end of a long day.

-In an ideal world, photographers talking about equipment would have the police confiscate it for a week every time that the bokeh of a lens was called into question, or pixels being rectangular instead of square, or LCD's  being frozen in time. Talks about image noise would warrant public flogging, a lash for every square cm of noise in the red channel and 10 lashes for talk of noise in the blue channel.

-In the ideal world, models with one zit out of place, one pimple, one erroneous twist of the lips, a single indulgence in something called food, one "I don't get out of bed for less than 10 thousand dollars" and they would be history, so that photographers would only have real models at their disposal, retouchers would not be necessary, as they just leach the budget every time they press the macro button to remove blemishes instantly to give us the plastic skin so sought after by those in the know.

But we don't live in the ideal world and never will, so instead let us contemplate our profits being eroded, our creativity being surplus to requirements, our cameras outperforming the paltry demands of the World Wide Web by a factor of 877.77777K. Let us have a thought for those who joined the profession by studying for a degree which taught them the art of copy/pasting from past and present, and as for those who studied nothing but made plenty, let us imitate their ways so that we all become wealthy and start buying these turbo charged HD-40s or 65LVs or P60s or whatever camera that sounds expensive so that the general public can separate the men from the boys.


The thing is...I don't really like institutions, so I'm throwing a tantrum.

E

[JoeKitchen]

I dont like institutions that tell me what to do.  I do like groups that offer suggestions on how to do things which will help me.   I consider the ASMP to be the latter.  If you see it as the former, I do know what to tell you.  

As a former high school teacher, I know that some students just do not like school and insist rebelling against it.  My first year teaching I thought why would they do this?  Do they know it is hurting them; do they realize how much it will set them back?  Will they change before it is to late?  Well, some people just need to learn the hard way even if it will destroy them and there is nothing you can do about it.  

As a student I like looking at information where ever it may be and try to learn from it.  See the mistakes others have made before me, learn how to avoid them.  Look at the successes others have had, try to emulate and improve upon them.  As a teacher I do the same thing in reverse.  This is the fastest way to learn.

[teddillard]

Interesting, I had the same experience- but I hated school as a student, and now that I teach I'm saying, what the heck is wrong with these kids?  

BUT, that led me back to when I started my studio...  a big part of it was me making my statement (as a young man in the '70s) that I could make a career without the big corporations and organizations, it was a statement of independence and self-sufficiency.  "Cutting off my nose to spite my face" is what my grammy would have called it...  but I'm not so sure that it's too uncommon in this business.  

I dont like institutions that tell me what to do.  I do like groups that offer suggestions on how to do things which will help me.   I consider the ASMP to be the latter.  If you see it as the former, I do know what to tell you.  

As a former high school teacher, I know that some students just do not like school and insist rebelling against it.  My first year teaching I thought why would they do this?  Do they know it is hurting them; do they realize how much it will set them back?  Will they change before it is to late?  Well, some people just need to learn the hard way even if it will destroy them and there is nothing you can do about it.  

As a student I like looking at information where ever it may be and try to learn from it.  See the mistakes others have made before me, learn how to avoid them.  Look at the successes others have had, try to emulate and improve upon them.  As a teacher I do the same thing in reverse.  This is the fastest way to learn.

[bcooter]

-In the ideal world

I can echo most peoples sentiments here with my experience of organizations in photography.  I've belonged to the DSVC Dallas, ASMP Dallas, APA Chicago, APA LA, AFAEP London (later the AOP),  SF (I think the APA but don't remember), New York . . . (nothing), the EP and I've joined all of them let it lapse, rejoined sometimes, usually don't participate, though at times participated with effort.

The one thing I've always noticed is the talent at the  very top of our industry doesn't seem to participate in the any of the major organizations, unless they are invited to speak or invited to speak on the request of a sponsored equipment maker.  Never heard of Avedon in the center row of an ASMP meeting, or Annie hosting lunch for APA/NY (I could be wrong), but it seems at the top of every genre the lone wolf,  every person for his/herself syndrome is evident.

As far as changing the industry for the better, no organization is going to force better and more lucrative conditions on a client.  No organization is going to make their members sign a blood oath with financial penalties never to give away usage, never to shoot stock, never to work for less this year than last.

I think most of the major trade groups and their members, APA, ASMP, EP have good intentions but eventually their focus is inward. They look at their plight, rather than ways to really improve the profession.

There are big changes in our industry, especially through web and video play.  Last week shooting on a rental stage, the three adjoining stages were primarily still projects and all had signs on the wall, "quiet, video in progress".

Our project had two video crews.

I know Adorama has 34 5d2's in stock and the 34 5d2's are always out in rental shooting motion.

So with that in mind it's a changing business and when you begin to negotiate usage  . . . pricing web play as the highest number usually doesn't fly in today's world, though web will probably have the largest viewership numbers.

This is obviously something we will all be forced to address and soon and if any trade orgranization can change this . . . I'd be surprised.

Still, in my view the only way to change the profession is from ground level.  Everybody wants someone else to do it for them, but if you really want to work in better conditions, be treated with more respect, then up your professional game.  Pay crew on time, deliver more than requested, live to your word and treat everyone, client and crew with equal respect.   In other words operate a professional business . . . get that message out to your present and potential clients  and you will be treated in kind.

You don't need a trade organization to learn this. Go to work for two months in any successful business, from restaurant to grip house and you will find that the companies with success follow the basic tenants of good business.

This biz, or any of the arts can give you a front row seat to life or drop you to your knees, sometimes within the same week, but I've found the only way to persevere is to move forward and look past group thinking.  

On the other hand, I think trade organizations are good, if only because they are like 12 step programs.  Most of us may live in a loner's world, but at least you know your not really alone with the issues.

IMO

BC


P.S.  Now on a lighter note:

The other day William and went up da road to Brown's, to have a cup-o'-t, and a few of them little cucumber sammiches.

Willy said he was a big believer in organizations.  Said he was in the AOP since birth.

I said really, since birth?  We'll I was a member of the AOP and  . . . crash, Willy dropped his cup of Earl Grey.

He said "excuse me but how could you . . . choke, cough, a uh, commoner be a member of the Association Of Princes  and I said uh, naw man, I meant the Association Of Photographers.

Whew . . . blood returned to Willy's face and he smiled and said "oh now I understand, a Photographer's association".  

I said yea, you should join up and he kind of did that one eyed squint and said "no disrespect meant but , I don't want to join anything,  I just want to be a photographer."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnZ581E1P9c

[Rob C]

From the perspective of having started as a trainee in pro pho in '60, I can assure you it was exactly the same then.

In Britain, there was the IBP which ran examinations that gave you an inter and then a final qualification. Unfortunately, those qualifications meant very little outwith some engineering units where perhaps the head photographer was himself a member. There came other, wedding-photo-slanted associations with training schemes, but as with them all, nobody who was going to be a client, as different from a long-term employer, gave a damn or was even aware that those associations existed.

There was no agreed pricing structure that anybody I knew had ever used; we all played it by ear and were eventually beaten down by the threat from other photographers who would be perfectly happy to undercut you if they had the slightest idea what you charged. I even had a client tell me that a chap had come to him offering his services without charging model fees, the model in question being both his girlfriend as well as one of my own models.

The bottom line, I think, may be constantly shifting, but it seems to me that the constant part of it is that people are willing to do anything just to get into print; that people seem not to care about money being the basis of business but think of it as an occasional luxury to be had from some jobs that they might snare. Is there an answer, a solution to the decay of the business as a business? I don't really think so short of legally required, examination-based membership of a responsible trade body. God knows why some governments might shy away from that.  At the very least it gives them a better base from which to collect taxation and catch the moonlighters.

Frankly, whilst you could jump from am to pro very quickly in my day if you had the money, I think that with today's changes in technology it is ever more realistic to expect anyone offering a photo service to be legally qualified; there is simply so much to learn and to such very advanced levels, that unless you are capable of reaching them, you won't be offering a client the best service he should reasonably expect.

Rob C

[Dick Roadnight]

Interesting, I had the same experience- but I hated school as a student, and now that I teach I'm saying, what the heck is wrong with these kids?  

Albert Einstein said something like:
"It is beyond my comprehension how modern methods of instruction have not entirely sniffled youthful curiosity."

[Dick Roadnight]

There are may things that would be different in the ideal world of photography.

-In an ideal world, photographers talking about equipment would have the police confiscate it for a week every time that the bokeh of a lens was called into question, or pixels being rectangular instead of square, or LCD's  being frozen in time. Talks about image noise would warrant public flogging, a lash for every square cm of noise in the red channel and 10 lashes for talk of noise in the blue channel.

E

Would this be to protect low-res DSLR users from been kicked out of the market by MF users, or to protect clients from MF users who did not turn up with a complete spare MF system?

[E_Edwards]

Would this be to protect low-res DSLR users from been kicked out of the market by MF users, or to protect clients from MF users who did not turn up with a complete spare MF system?

I was only joking in order to highlight the useless waste of time that we all like to indulge in, talking about minor technical details when in reality we've never had it better when you consider the quality/price/speed/convenience equation. We simply like to moan and vent now and then, quite healthy if you ask me.

Personally, I find talking about equipment quite boring after the novelty has passed, I would much rather talk about ideas, or images, or the intricacies of success or how to avoid failure. I like the long posts here by the regular guys, I like a bit of irony, cynicism mixed with nostalgia, a bit of humour and banter as well as educated analysis of various subjects.

Your post about belonging to institutions or what you get out of them is interesting, a change from the usual.

Ed.

[luong]

One thing I would think a pro photographer org would be useful for is to negotiate a nice group health insurance plan for its members. Even NANPA, which is not really pro, has such a benefit. What about others ? Any of the organization offer a particularly worthwhile health insurance plan ?

[teddillard]

Interesting...  just saw this link about the ASMP hosting a copyright conference.

http://www.photography-news.com/2010/03/as...-symposium.html

[Dick Roadnight]

The British Institute of Professional Photographers meetings are like unglorified amateur club meetings, but they do some courses that might be useful to me.

I spoke to a director of the Master Photographers' Association at Focus/NEC/UK this week, and he said that they accept "anyone aspiring to be a professional photographer".

An advantage of the MPA for me is that their local meetings are not far away from South Warwickshire: they have 12 regions in the UK, so they would be more local for most people.

Has anyone any info re MPA?

It is a small organization (2000 members) and most members are, I think, into people/fashion etc., so I think I would be unlikely to find anyone with any interest/knowledge re remote operation of Medium Format digital View cameras.