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Author Topic: Professional Photographers' Institutions  (Read 12298 times)

Dick Roadnight

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« on: March 01, 2010, 05:41:38 am »

This site is global, but for some business matters National Institutions might be the logical place to look for answers.

What does your institution do for you? e.g...

Legal assistance /advice

PM and marketing / finding clients

Artistic training

Camera/lighting training

Training for  specialties like weddings, architecture...

Equipment sourcing / selection / finding support
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DHB

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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 08:14:57 pm »

What does your institution do for you? e.g...

    In my case ASMP

Legal assistance /advice

     ASMP has an attorney, but with 6000 members, he generally can't provide advice to members on an individual basis.

PM and marketing / finding clients

     This is what reps or a photographer's own promotional efforts are supposed to acheive. I don't know what PM is, but the only thing ASMP does in this regard is their Find a Photographer function, which isn't too useful to me.

Artistic training

     Nope. This is what art school is for.

Camera/lighting training

     Nope. This is what photography school and assisting are for.

Training for  specialties like weddings, architecture...

     ASMP doesn't cater to wedding photographers, nor is this sort of training part of their mission.    

Equipment sourcing / selection / finding support

     Nope. This is what producers and B&H are for.


The ASMP Mission Statement is:

To protect and promote the interests of photographers whose work is for publication.
To promote high professional standards and ethics.
To cultivate friendship and mutual understanding between photographers.


It's purpose is not to teach people how to become photographers. It is to teach them how to be smart business people, to advocate for them on a national level, and to encourage photographers to help each other. To this end, I wish ASMP had a forum, because it would fulfill two of those mission items. Which relates with my separate post...

So in the case of ASMP, they don't do anything on your list. I don't know if there is an organization for commercial photographers that does.

David
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mcfoto

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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 07:44:50 am »

Hi
For the US how does the ASMP compare to the APA. We have moved back to NY & will join one of them.
Cheers Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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gwhitf

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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 01:49:28 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
This site is global, but for some business matters National Institutions might be the logical place to look for answers.

What does your institution do for you? e.g...

PM and marketing / finding clients

Artistic training

Aren't you the guy that just advised firing all your clients, if they didn't see things your way? Judging by your question above, I guess I can see how your business viewpoint is working out for you.
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 03:28:58 pm »

I've always found that belonging to any institutions is a monumental waste of time and money.

I was once almost persuaded to join one of them but I found that the questions they asked about my work, proof of work, proof of invoicing, contracts, etc, was rather inquisitive and distasteful to someone like me who prefers to keep these things to myself.

Why should I give confidential information to an institution who wants my money to do exactly what?
How do I know that this information is not going to be used in a way that I can't control?

In any case, I dislike being one of the herd. Being a photographer is a lonely business, in the sense that you find things out by yourself from many different sources. You don't need to be told by an institution how much to charge, or what the copyright laws are in your country, or how to market yourself, or how to shoot in a particular style, or whether you need to have a rep, or hire a studio or buy or lease.

These are things that you learn as you go along, and they differ greatly from person to person.

A friend of mine belonged to three organisations, the types where you add a few letters after your name. Didn't do him any good, he was always broke.

As for giving back to the business of photography, by sharing knowledge or experiences, I'm all for it, but up to a point. For instance, I wouldn't share the specifics or how I shoot this or that, best to find out by yourself and learn some photography in the process.

E.
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JoeKitchen

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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 03:41:32 pm »

Quote from: E_Edwards
As for giving back to the business of photography, by sharing knowledge or experiences, I'm all for it, but up to a point. For instance, I wouldn't share the specifics or how I shoot this or that, best to find out by yourself and learn some photography in the process.

E.
So instead of learning from the mistakes of other you would rather doom yourself to commit those same mistakes?  Or instead of having new photographers work within the professional model already established, you would rather have them screw it up by not charging appropriately and giving away too many rights?  

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E_Edwards

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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 04:10:45 pm »

Quote from: JoeKitchen
So instead of learning from the mistakes of other you would rather doom yourself to commit those same mistakes?  Or instead of having new photographers work within the professional model already established, you would rather have them screw it up by not charging appropriately and giving away too many rights?

Making mistakes is part of the process of learning and somebody's mistake is another person's success.

I'll give you one example. The guy who says his direct mailing campaign has yielded zero response. Immediately you have a response from another guy who says he has had tremendous success from a limited run of direct mail. The Institution will say; Direct mail, if properly targeted, can be a very effective way to draw new business. Well, we all know that!

But how do you find out what's best for you? You do it yourself (or not) and you do it in your own way, using your own individuality.

Another example: new photographer. Doesn't have a clue how much to charge. Institution gives some guidance. Brilliant, lets charge 5 grand a day, plus advertising usage, plus expenses and mark up, digital processing fees, studio and equipment hire, etc. Grand total, 15 grand. Clients budget is $900. Does he take on the job or not? Of course not! We need more martyrs to the cause.

Let the other photographer in the queue take on the job instead and welcome to the real world. And the sad case is that the Institution can do nothing about it.

E
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 04:12:14 pm by E_Edwards »
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 04:25:53 pm »

And I hate people who work for nothing.  I regularly get calls for quotes where the punter on the phone asks: Is this the price for the 100 images?   No, I say,  this is the price for one single image. Silence.

People are working for nothing, it's unsustainable, but they still do it.

The fact that there are so many 'photographers' working for nothing means that the Institutions have done nothing of any value about this matter, the matter that really counts: money in your own pocket.

This is as bad now as it was 20 years ago, there will always be masses of people with no business sense and a camera in their hands. To think that an Institution is going to stop this from happening is a little naive, or maybe wishful thinking.

E
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gwhitf

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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2010, 04:34:52 pm »

Quote from: E_Edwards
or maybe wishful thinking.

Education is always good, especially when you're a young photographer, but let's be honest -- in this world of commercial photography, it's the Wild Wild West out there. There are no rules. And there are guys, (maybe even your friends), that'll look you right in the eye, and say they're playing by the rules, and in the end, you hear stories about easy copyright giveaway by them. It is total anarchy out there, and getting worse every day, due to the ease of digital cameras.

Remember the days, not long ago, where if you missed it by more than 2/3 of a stop, the job was blown? Remember that sweat on the back of your neck, standing there judging Clip Tests? And then realizing that you should have dropped in a .5 Magenta instead of a .25, and that there was no AutoWhiteBalance or no LCD? Or when you'd shoot a polaroid in January and try to get it into your armpit, fast, but still, it was forty units of Cyan, unusable? Those days are gone, and now, everybody's a photographer.

Wild wild west. And no one with any education or sense of business history.
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 04:46:18 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Remember the days, not long ago, where if you missed it by more than 2/3 of a stop, the job was blown?


Oh yes, I remember the days only too well. Bracketing f1/3 four sheets of 8x10 was rather expensive, but I would only normally process one or two(my guesstimate) and would keep the other ones unprocessed just in case. Unless the budget was great. And do you remember the chemical smell of the Polaroids, rather intoxicating, never really liked it, specially when they leaked and messed up the rollers.

But wild west as it is now (as you don't need to have the same knowledge), the possibilities of making money are still here, at least for a few!

E
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 07:15:17 pm »

It amazes me that some of you still believe that any business can survive by following organize guidelines and rules. Aside from following laws there is no rules in business. The only strategy in business is to bring profit.
It is silly to believe that photography is a special field with loyalty among business owners. You can't try to force Hair Salon owners to charge $75 a hair cut or press them not to offer free bangs or neck trimming between the cuts. You can not stop $6 Hair Cut Place opening right next to you. In real world you do what you have to do to survive or you become yet another closed business.
By the time any guides are published they are already an old story. Free market is the only rule. How can you possibly hope to exceed in business by doing what you told and following others.
Any business manager with an idea like this would be fired right on a spot.
You guys hate photogs that are charging less than you and hope that by educating them they will get less jobs and some of the jobs will come back to you. Funny.
It is not Wild West it is economy 101. Charge what you can, charge what you worth, adjust your opinion about what you worth frequently, survive.
Http://AndreNapier.com
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2010, 08:16:33 pm »

"Your attitude is worse than your byline which BTW throws me off line."    

Huh?  He makes perfect sense to me.




"For Christ's sake, lawyers have better comradery and activity with their trade orgs. What does that say about photographers as a whole?"

Yeah but they aren't the competition to each other...without an opposing lawyer there would be no way to stretch a simple job into a two year long deal. Lawyers love other lawyers....



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AndreNapier

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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2010, 08:25:28 pm »

Keith,
I have no attitude other than I live in real world and recognize and adjust to constant changes. I have been in business of doing successful business for over 25 years. If your recipe works for you then this is fine with me.
You have a right to preach to others your believes but they also have a right to hear my side of the story with proven record that it works.
www.AndreNapier.com
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DHB

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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2010, 12:05:08 am »

It’s curious that those people here with the most negative things to say about the photographers’ organizations are those who apparently have never belonged to any of them.

Which explains why they have so many ridiculous assumptions about these organizations, as well.

But I guess I felt the same way before I joined ASMP. I thought I was one sharp businessman, and who were these photographers who were going to “educate” me and preach to me about the “right” way to do business? But then I got to know a couple of ASMP members just from seeing them at the lab and in my building where my studio was, and they were really good guys, and very helpful, and I looked at their work and it was outstanding. And they were making a hell of a lot more money than I was, on serious jobs. Oh- and they never “preached” to me at all.

So I joined, and it turned out I wasn’t anywhere near as sharp as I thought I was. The year I joined ASMP was the year my business finally started going somewhere. Eventually, I realized that turning down bad jobs paid off in many ways. I was shooting better work, for nicer clients, for a lot more money. I can think of several instances where following some of the lessons I learned in ASMP about contracts, copyright, negotiating, usage, etc, paid off in tens of thousands of dollars.

I never once encountered a situation where I was “pressured” to follow any “rules” or “guidelines”. This is a huge misconception. And to be paranoid about “the organization” trying to pump your brain for your brilliant deep dark secrets that they will then do uh, bad things with, or something…  Holy cow.

E says: “I was once almost persuaded to join one of them but I found that the questions they asked about my work, proof of work, proof of invoicing, contracts, etc, was rather inquisitive and distasteful to someone like me who prefers to keep these things to myself.” Smells like BS to me. The only thing ASMP required of me to join was proof that I had been published (like a tearsheet), since it is an organization for photographers who shoot for publication.

He also says, “Being a photographer is a lonely business…” Well, it doesn’t have to be. You just decided that for yourself. Very macho. Very lone-wolf. There is nothing “herd like” about any gathering of ASMP members, I can tell you that. There are photographers there covering the whole spectrum.

BTW, I think it’s great that Keith belongs to an organization and believes “Ask not what your 'institution' can do for you, ask what you can do for your institution.” I know a lot of photographers do. But that’s never been my thing. I’ve always belonged for one reason: for my own self interest. I get a lot from what my local chapter has to offer, and I get a lot from the great relationships I’ve built over the years. I just called a fellow member today to bounce a usage issue off him and get some feedback. I try to give back as much as I can, but it’s not my purpose for belonging.

David
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JoeKitchen

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2010, 06:55:26 am »

All this bad talk about photographer's organizations and suggesting to other photographers to do what you think is best without any concern about the industry, horrible and stupid.  

When I first started out (and I am still a baby, a toddler) I had no idea what I was doing.  The price I was planning on charging was a third of what I charge now and I thought it was a lot.  I started a marketing campaign that I thought was good and looked good.  And I had no idea about the idea of charging for the right to use my images and increasing the price as the usage required increased.  But in the first month I went out on my own, I joined the ASMP as an emerging associate, had to be no more then $125 for the year and I figured what the hell. I am so glad I did.  

In that first month the ASMP offered a 3 hour talk in my area on marketing.  I came away from that realizing that nothing about the marketing campaigned I started was professional looking.  I also got some very good ideas on how to improve it.  Also, in that month, I received a copy of best business practices in which I really learned about copyrights and how to control them.  Not to mention other photographers more experienced then me in the ASMP helped me on issues like what to charge and what rights to include in my standard package, when to turn down business for the better of your career.  The ASMP has been very helpful to me.  I even had a damn good AP offer to have me observe a shoot of his in which I learned a hell of a lot.  I have found that other APs in the area who are members of the ASMP had no problem talking to me about the industry and the ins and outs even though I am a "competitor."  

It is very nice camaraderie across the board with everyone in the ASMP and I am glad to have it.  

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gwhitf

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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2010, 07:36:25 am »

Quote from: DHB
But I guess I felt the same way before I joined ASMP. I thought I was one sharp businessman, and who were these photographers who were going to “educate” me and preach to me about the “right” way to do business? But then I got to know a couple of ASMP members just from seeing them at the lab and in my building where my studio was, and they were really good guys, and very helpful, and I looked at their work and it was outstanding. And they were making a hell of a lot more money than I was, on serious jobs. Oh- and they never “preached” to me at all.

This is not about money. This is not about Price Fixing. This is not about setting rates. Let's get clear about that. This is about education.

I joined ASMP early on in my career, when I was a kid. There was a new chapter forming in my city, and there was one photographer here who put it all together to form the chapter. There was much good feeling. There was much sharing. Hell, there was even a regular Monday night volleyball game.

We are talking "C level" city here. Many small photographers, very few with much business education at all. So many people came together, and learned about copyright, business practices, etc. Much was shared, on the record and off. It builds confidence, even in the older guys. You gain confidence in negotiating, when an agency comes at you and wants Everything and the Kitchen Sink too. You learn to stand your ground. It was good for everyone. All this education does, yes, lead to profit. You learn to not bend over and give the house away, when someone is dangling a nice P.O. in front of your face.

There was also a traveling "road show" with Emily Vickers (of Jay Maisel studio). It toured the country and I attended that with my rep. We learned a massive amount of business information there. All that's brought back and turned into profit.

Photographers aren't licensed, like architects, or engineers, or lawyers, or dentists, (or cosmetologists). In photography, you just flip out your AMEX at B&H, and the next day, you hang out your shingle, and you're a photographer in business. APA, ASMP, EP all provide solid working information in how to deal with magazines, ad agencies, and direct clients. Is it perfect? No. Is any Trade Organization perfect? Probably not. But it's better than learning nothing at all. It gives you information to be able to speak the language.

Now, having said that, the slap in the face that I found, was that only a tiny majority of commercial photographers belonged to APA or ASMP at that time, (or now). So in effect, you're competing with people who'll simply shoot a job and hand over the RAWS now, with no usage parameters whatsoever. You have people who won't even process their own files -- shoot the job, burn the raws, and wave goodbye. NO CRAFT. No professionalism. Just going for the quick profit, and tomorrow is another day. Thank God that bridges don't collapse if a photographer does a half-ass job, or that roofs don't collapse, or that no one is poisoned, or that your teeth don't fall out. After all, "they're just pictures". But that does not invalidate the need to learn about business practices, and how to deal with employees, and insurance, and liability, and location fees, and licensing issues, and usage. ASMP and APA do not serve that need completely, but they do as good a job as any Trade Organization. I'd recommend it to any and all young photographers, (in addition to full-time assisting, so that you get closer to the inner workings of a good studio business).

Just one opinion.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2010, 11:17:26 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
You have people who won't even process their own files -- shoot the job, burn the raws, and wave goodbye. NO CRAFT. No professionalism. Just going for the quick profit, and tomorrow is another day.

I like to have control over the whole process end to end, but...
If you have 10s of 000s invested in camera kit it would seem logical to use it every day and delegate everything else, or have 6 photographers using the kit one day a week each!
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2010, 11:19:50 am »

Quote from: John-S
I am at the tail end of participating in this forum because there is little to nothing to learn here anymore. This is the first discussion here in a long time that is of some substance.
I am glad that you are still here, and letting us learn from your experience.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 11:29:48 am »

Some UK photographer's institutes take anybody's money, offer courses for those of us who have not been to photo school, and allow you to get qualifications through submission of work.

I imagine that, having become a fellow of e.g. the British Institute of Professional Photographers, one could then join e.g. the Master Photographer's Association.

...but do the customers give a damn if you have letters after your name?

Are there any Institutes with any or many members with top-end Medium Format Digital View Cameras?
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Nick-T

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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 02:22:41 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Are there any Institutes with any or many members with top-end Medium Format Digital View Cameras?

I don't believe there are many like you Dick.
Would love to see some of the stuff you are creating with the view camera and the Metzs.
Nick-T
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