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Rajan Parrikar

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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2010, 04:45:20 pm »

Michael's photograph brought to mind something I had seen long ago in the biography of the late Nobel Laureate in Physics, S. Chandrasekhar.  The story is told in the book "Chandra" by K.C. Wali (for details, Google is your friend).  It opens with the following picture:





Wali's commentary follows:



John Camp

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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2010, 04:57:35 pm »

Here's a 1933 painting by Balthus. This also came to mind.

[attachment=20535:balthus.jpg]
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Don Craig

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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2010, 05:54:39 pm »

I liked Michael's photograph - but a  technical comment:

I've gotten into the habit of grabbing coverage after the fact for the
edges of a photograph with uncertain framing.  In this case, even
with a handheld M9, a quick grab of the tilted lamphead with some
headroom would have given more flexibility in later framing decisions,
by combining the peak-of-action photo with the lamp headroom photo
in Photoshop of something like it.

I think this photograph works as is, in that the top of the frame
is knocking the lamp askew, but it would be nice to have the luxury
of deciding the framing in post, rather than having it forced by
a hasty snapshot.  I leave aside the ethical dilemma of creating
composite photographs.  I suppose the notion of adding something
to a scene in post is even more traumatic than cropping something
out.

cheers,
Don Craig

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rc53

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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 01:40:59 am »

Would this work so well if the lamppost didn't have the kink at the top?
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Robert

Rob C

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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2010, 04:43:54 am »

No, as far as I know there is no hidden background of problems between our host and myself; I retracted the remark because on reconsideration it seemed to me that I had, somewhat absurdly,  contradicted the spirit of my own much earlier statements that Michael is obviously free to do with his site as he wishes.

My compulsion to comment was simply a reflection of an ever-held belief that you just can't teach people how to see. If it isn't already there, then it never will be. You can certainly teach people mechanical/electronic processes, but that will serve them not in the least when it comes to having or not having that little part of the brain that screams now! when your finger is hovering over the button. Your dreams may differ.

No offence taken and, I hope, none received.

As for being grumpy - I suppose it comes with the territory or the numbers. You can't live photography for very long before seeing that the same old questions and answers and questions and answers go round and around like a friggin' wheel. I will never forget my wife telling me that she had cancelled all her magazines because, in the end, they were all cyclical, running through the gamut of fashion, weddings, babies and fashion and on and on and on, year after year. They all repeat themselves until they make you scream rather than cheer. Is photography any different? That's the great thing about the web: you don't have to tie yourself down to any cycle - you can go where your inspiration or reactions to what you read take you; it's part of the reason why too stringent and forced an adherence to the concept of 'threads' can stultify them, reduce them to the sludge of thick soup distilled from last week's vegetables. I suppose the only cure for the grumps is knocking one's self out - but then that causes other problems; maybe one just can't win.

;-)

Rob C

Dave Millier

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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2010, 06:48:35 am »

Quote from: Rob C
My compulsion to comment was simply a reflection of an ever-held belief that you just can't teach people how to see. If it isn't already there, then it never will be. You can certainly teach people mechanical/electronic processes, but that will serve them not in the least when it comes to having or not having that little part of the brain that screams now! when your finger is hovering over the button. Your dreams may differ.

No offence taken and, I hope, none received.

;-)

Rob C

Hi Rob

I couldn't disagree more with the above statement.  It is undoubtedly true that innate visual awareness differs amongst people (bell curve, I guess) but the idea that any trait is immutable is silly. "Seeing" is a skill that responds to practise, practise, practise like any other. The main problem (IMO) that holds people back, especially if they work alone, is figuring out what to practise. That's where education and articles like Michael's help.

For me personally, the journey from helplessness to taking at least some control over my own visual development started when i finally figured out the sort of photographs I really liked and what I liked about them. You can absorb a general sense of an aesthetic by finding exemplars of the kind of shots you want to make and comparing your own efforts to those. Not slavishly mimicing of course but getting a grasp of the common features. After a while and after a lot of practise I find my ability to recognise possibilities has sharpened. I know this for sure because when I am out in the field surrounded by things which don't fit the framework, I am generally clueless what to shoot and then suddenly when the right cirumstances occur the potential for shots is instantly obvious. Indeed, so much so that there sometimes when things fortuitously conspire, there seem an endless  stream of possibilities.

I'd be interested to know how many others agree with Rob and think you have to be "gifted"...
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Marlyn

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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2010, 07:22:12 am »

Nature vs Nurture, this debate has been spinning around philosiphers, psycholigists and likley many other professions for hundres of years.  The concept of weather person is genetically predisposed to certain abilities, personalities, behaviour and skills or if we start off as Tabula Rasa and are formed by the world around us.

Personally, I belive it is a combination of both Genetics and Environment.   As for the ability to see, well I belive genetics gives one the pre-disposition to be able to do it (i.e. reasonably intelligent etc),  but it is a learned skill.
I.e. Abilites are learned, but Genetics really determines how easy it may be for someone to learn a given ability.

We are a sum of our parts, our experiences, out lives.

Regards.

Mark
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barryfitzgerald

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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2010, 07:29:17 am »

I see some remarks about cropping!
The response is simple, if you need to crop, then do so. If you don't, then don't.

For this type of photography, I suspect it's a lot more common, but for landscape work, I hardly ever do so. Simple reason is you would almost always have the composition as you want it. Is there an art in cropping? Maybe..or it might just be a handy tool to use selectively. I certainly would not advise slacking on composition..with a view to fixing it later though.

I will say, it is more satisfying to not crop, I'll give it that, but I've no problems using it as and when.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 07:30:45 am by barryfitzgerald »
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fredjeang

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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2010, 07:40:08 am »

Quote from: Dave Millier
Hi Rob

I couldn't disagree more with the above statement.  It is undoubtedly true that innate visual awareness differs amongst people (bell curve, I guess) but the idea that any trait is immutable is silly. "Seeing" is a skill that responds to practise, practise, practise like any other. The main problem (IMO) that holds people back, especially if they work alone, is figuring out what to practise. That's where education and articles like Michael's help.

For me personally, the journey from helplessness to taking at least some control over my own visual development started when i finally figured out the sort of photographs I really liked and what I liked about them. You can absorb a general sense of an aesthetic by finding exemplars of the kind of shots you want to make and comparing your own efforts to those. Not slavishly mimicing of course but getting a grasp of the common features. After a while and after a lot of practise I find my ability to recognise possibilities has sharpened. I know this for sure because when I am out in the field surrounded by things which don't fit the framework, I am generally clueless what to shoot and then suddenly when the right cirumstances occur the potential for shots is instantly obvious. Indeed, so much so that there sometimes when things fortuitously conspire, there seem an endless  stream of possibilities.

I'd be interested to know how many others agree with Rob and think you have to be "gifted"...
I could not agree more with your post.

About what Rob said, "beeing gifted", I disagree completly but it is a concept very anchored and most of the time accepted so.
In my experience, this is absolutely not the case, and thank god it is like that.
Because we would have a fistful of elected people while there would be no chance for the average to reach this promised land...
 
May I tell you a short story from ny Fine Arts student.
When I enter the school in first year, there was clearly two kind of students.
1) the ones who have always painted and drawing since baby, who had natural gift, and who had already experienced some incomes and had already big amount of works.
I was in that section.

2) the ones who did not had already experience and just basics skills. These were obviously not gifted and had very few work done.

Very fast, these two sections divided themselves into the "goods" and the "bads", the gifted and the clumsy group.
In the gifted group, we were very pretentious and most of us decided that we did not have to work so much because we were already good.
In the bad group, there were working like ants.
In a couple of months, the non-gifted started to show impressive improvements, both in skills and vision, while the gifted group was stagnating. 6 months later, it was clear that the non-gifted overtook us. We were arrogants, we beleived that a minimum work was necessary because we were blessed by the god of arts...but our arrogance did not last very long.
Those who came with the intention of learning and put a lot of efforts in prtactise, reached superior vision and technique.
I can tell you that in practise, very few of the gifted managed to succed in art, while more of the non-gifted reached a career and respect in their art.

This concept of gifted is a romantic concept. The reality is working again and again, then raise the talent.  And each individual with no expection can become a master in art, if he just work for it.

Fred.







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Jeremy Payne

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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2010, 07:59:11 am »

Quote from: Rob C
you just can't teach people how to see.

As someone who was most definitively taught to see by a man named Gordon 'Diz' Bensley I most heartily disagree.

http://www.andover.edu/About/Newsroom/Page...ensleyObit.aspx
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fredjeang

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« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2010, 10:02:15 am »

I thought this could be interesting in this topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thp_oMGz6ss
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Rob C

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« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2010, 10:06:54 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Because we would have a fistful of elected people while there would be no chance for the average to reach this promised land...
 
Fred.





Fred, I think that is exactly where the world stands today.

There are several photographers' agents where you can look and find the very best in the world; you can see the work of this handful in the top magazines, and then the rest elsewhere. It was ever so - room at the top is very tight and few those that can fill whatever space there is. By definition, the average can never reach the top.

The world is full of junk, professionally produced rubbish. Where do you think that leaves the rest of the people who buy the material that fills the coffers of the world's printer, ink and paper manufacturers and the rest of the bunch that lives off the dreams and fantasies of the mass of wishful thinkers?

I am willing to accept that this may seem to be an extreme example to use, but isn't that really the point? So few have 'it' which I think of as the ability to see something almost before it exists, the quality that enables them to transmute visual lead into gold. God, I wish that I had had a bit more of it!

It is nothing to do with elitism either - it is just the luck of the draw coupled, perhaps, with the background of opportunity that permits the growth of the talent, but the talent has to be there, as with your lazy and non-lazy students. Otherwise, anybody could be good as anyone else and they most certainly are not!

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 10:07:44 am by Rob C »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2010, 11:52:56 am »

Quote from: Rob C
... As for being grumpy...
Perhaps this is a better explanation (from Kenneth Clark's book Landscape into Art), about "great artists getting old)   :

[attachment=20541:Old.png]

fredjeang

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« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2010, 12:47:32 pm »

Quote from: Rob C
Fred, I think that is exactly where the world stands today.

There are several photographers' agents where you can look and find the very best in the world; you can see the work of this handful in the top magazines, and then the rest elsewhere. It was ever so - room at the top is very tight and few those that can fill whatever space there is. By definition, the average can never reach the top.

The world is full of junk, professionally produced rubbish. Where do you think that leaves the rest of the people who buy the material that fills the coffers of the world's printer, ink and paper manufacturers and the rest of the bunch that lives off the dreams and fantasies of the mass of wishful thinkers?

I am willing to accept that this may seem to be an extreme example to use, but isn't that really the point? So few have 'it' which I think of as the ability to see something almost before it exists, the quality that enables them to transmute visual lead into gold. God, I wish that I had had a bit more of it!

It is nothing to do with elitism either - it is just the luck of the draw coupled, perhaps, with the background of opportunity that permits the growth of the talent, but the talent has to be there, as with your lazy and non-lazy students. Otherwise, anybody could be good as anyone else and they most certainly are not!

Rob C
Hi Rob,

You certainly point some truths. But the top ones, before they reached the top, were first beginners, then averages, good etc...a Mozart is once every many centuries. Then, as you pointed, there is also in the very top, a lot of rubbish too. Talent or gifted is certainly not the only paremeter that will define if one can reach recognition only because of his genius or gifted talents. Were you born, external circunstances, attitude in front of obstacles, luck, realations and obstination are surely other factors (and I forgot some of course) that are involved. You also have to be in the right place at the right time. I've seen many really talented people ended in an absolute discouragement. Other less gifted have worked their weeknesses and really improved the quality of their work.

To come back to this topic, as someone pointed, when you are alone and want to improve your photographic knowledge, articles like the ones here are certainly very usefull. Will it make you a genius? Certainly not, but it will help you to progress in your photography, and you never know where this can lead you. In my understanding, this does not and can not replace a one-on-one lesson, but it does help a lot.

Cheers,

Fred.

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Rob C

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« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2010, 05:04:40 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
To come back to this topic, as someone pointed, when you are alone and want to improve your photographic knowledge, articles like the ones here are certainly very usefull. Will it make you a genius? Certainly not, but it will help you to progress in your photography, and you never know where this can lead you. In my understanding, this does not and can not replace a one-on-one lesson, but it does help a lot.

Cheers,

Fred.




I certainly believe that you will have huge problems trying to develop your photography in a vacuum. My own eye was sharpened by magazines and not by looking at local photographic work. However, I do believe that there had to be something there in the first place that I could sharpen. When I turned pro I realised that not many others around me - well, there never were that many in the commercial/industrial world, most were into weddings and didn't cross my radar - had any sort of eye at all and, worse, didn't care a fig about it. It was just a job they had stumbled into by chance. I never felt that way and was pissed off that they took it all so lightly when I considered the great hassle I had to face in order to find an opening for myself even to become a trainee.

And that's basically from where the sense comes that nobody else can teach you vision. Those guys where I started my pro life were all able to improve my printing techniques for me and I was grateful for that - I would never have sussed out how to dish-process around thirty prints at a time without being taught a system - but that wasn't how to see, just how to do mechanics. I wish I had had the same golden opportunity as a young guy to learn how to use Photoshop etc. at a pro speed and efficiency, but it didn't exist back then. Most of all I wish I had learned ways to do good PS retouching on people - faces and like that.

Anyway, one lives where one is in time and nothing can be changed in that respect, so to avoid another attack of the grumps - I bid you all buenas noches!

Rob C

viswan

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« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2010, 12:36:29 am »

Michael, I have an alternate view of your crop. I think/feel that it is a little bit too tight, it gives me a very subtle feeling of tension, claustrophobia type of feeling.

Please consider this version, just a bit looser, but lets the image breathe a bit, shows a hair more context.....

[attachment=20565:ladder_1.jpg]
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fredjeang

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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2010, 05:34:44 am »

Hi,
I'm not Michael, but as I started the OP saying that to me the Michael's composition was about perfect, I feel free to give my modest opinion.
In fact, your version just confirm my initial feeling.
You wanted to give more "air" and soften the claustrophobic feeling, but then, the tree and the bottom of the window on the right side are just
killing the composition and it does not work in your example.
These, add 2 flat dark areas that are croped, so they do not play any role. The tree is too cuted so as the window so the information is useless.
In order to add space you also added more problems in the picture. The composition lines are complicated and it really distract me from the story, much more that the sensation of tightness.
I like to think that less is more, and I think that the initial image of Michael did not have so much possible versions that work.
The way he cropped was just about right.  
The problem I see in your version is that it drives the eyes outside the frame, in the Michael's version it just keep your attention on the subject.

Regards,

Fred.
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Philmar

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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2010, 11:40:53 am »

Lovely article and photo Michael. My sincerest thanks. Having been in San Miguel last October, my mind is still fresh from the wonderful photographic opportunities that present themselves in that town. Through your article it was nice to fantasize how it would have been if I could have spent more time there. I was there a scant 48 hours, the place was such a revelation to me I think I slept only 8 hours at the most hoping to take advantage of every minute of light. I too saw many a worker carrying a ladder in town. I spent a good 10 minutes trying to catch a wonderful scene with two workers poised precariously on their ladder....but my persistence was not rewarded.


I had noticed both of them leaning precariously in opposite directions and was maneuvering myself for the best vantage point. They became aware of the gringo and the camera behind them and started joking with co-workers off camera. I didn't have the time to wait for myself to escape from their consciousness so as to recreate the poses that were the original intention in my image. So I settled for a lesser one.

I was hoping to get a photo similar to this one I shot in Costa Rica (small child engaged in dangerous labour on Xmas day 2009). This one would have been better as the men were both leaning in opposite direction. Leaning towards each other would have been optimal but there wasn't enough separation between ladders for that to happen...and 'YES" I would have cropped out the ground to create the illusion that they were higher from the ground.


So your photo was a reminder of the 'one that got away'.

But I did luck out later with a workman struggling with a heavy cooking gas canister.

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