Printer Frustration

[Robert Boire]

Hi,

I have been have getting really disappointing results printing some photos on my inkjet printer. The colors  do not come close to reproducing colors that I see on the screen. In particular dark greens which tend to come out more brownish and the prints are generally too dark.
I am using a Canon ip4300 printer and Illford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper

I have:

1. Profiled my monitor
2. Compared the image on the profiled monitor to several other non-profiled monitors. All are reasonably close.
3. Downloaded the generic printer profile  for my paper/printer combination from the Illford site and printed with Adobe Managing Color and the right profile.
I have also made sure that printer color managment is turned off.
4. Purchased a custom printer profile and repeated the print.

The results from 3 were better (though not acceptable) than 4! In fact the custom printer profile was terrible.

I have noticed that many of the color squares for the target I priinted for the custom profile are out of gamut (especially in the greens) though the actual image I am trying to print is in gamut. Does that tell me something?

Is there something else I should be trying?

I am thinking of trying a custom profile from a different vendor.

I would appreciate any help.

Robert

[digitaldog]

In particular dark greens which tend to come out more brownish and the prints are generally too dark.
1. Profiled my monitor

Too dark prints (compared to the screen) are often a disconnect between the viewing booth luminance and the display calibration luminance. Raise the booth luminance if possible and/or lower the display luminance (cd/m2).

[Wayne Fox]

Hi,

I have been have getting really disappointing results printing some photos on my inkjet printer. The colors  do not come close to reproducing colors that I see on the screen. In particular dark greens which tend to come out more brownish and the prints are generally too dark.
I am using a Canon ip4300 printer and Illford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper

I have:

1. Profiled my monitor
2. Compared the image on the profiled monitor to several other non-profiled monitors. All are reasonably close.
3. Downloaded the generic printer profile  for my paper/printer combination from the Illford site and printed with Adobe Managing Color and the right profile.
I have also made sure that printer color managment is turned off.
4. Purchased a custom printer profile and repeated the print.

The results from 3 were better (though not acceptable) than 4! In fact the custom printer profile was terrible.

I have noticed that many of the color squares for the target I priinted for the custom profile are out of gamut (especially in the greens) though the actual image I am trying to print is in gamut. Does that tell me something?

Is there something else I should be trying?

I am thinking of trying a custom profile from a different vendor.

I would appreciate any help.

Robert

What operating system?  What version of PS?  If you are using Leopard/Snow Leopard and CS4, there are currently issues and your targets are probably invalid unless you have read about the current work around and applied it correctly.

When you say the target colors are "out of gamut", how are you determining that?  You shouldn't be using any printer profiles.  Soft proofing a target is meaningless ... yes many colors will probably be out of gamut. That's sort of the point ... where is the limit of your printers gamut, the only way to tell that is send it a color that exceeds it, then read the results.  I assume when you printed the targets you made sure all color management was off in both Photoshop and the printer driver.

as far as being too dark, this is probably the most common question regarding printing.  Andrew's post is a nice way to illustrate that.  The only thing I might add is it is easy to get your viewing light too bright, so the resulting prints look dark everywhere except in the display booth where they match.

[George Marinos]

Hi Robert
Try also to run a nozzle check.Somme times a clog can affect one particular color.I used to calibrate my monitors (CG221,QUATO 213 EXC. and QUATO 213) at 75-80 cd/m2 and that way I have a close match with my epson 2400,4800 and 9900 printers.
Good luck

George

[ChasP505]

In the Canon printer settings, are you turning off Print Preview?  I know that seems unrelated to the problem, but it's been found to be a cause of color shifts in Canon printers.

[PeterAit]

Hi,

I have been have getting really disappointing results printing some photos on my inkjet printer. The colors  do not come close to reproducing colors that I see on the screen. In particular dark greens which tend to come out more brownish and the prints are generally too dark.
I am using a Canon ip4300 printer and Illford Galerie Smooth Pearl paper

I have:

1. Profiled my monitor
2. Compared the image on the profiled monitor to several other non-profiled monitors. All are reasonably close.
3. Downloaded the generic printer profile  for my paper/printer combination from the Illford site and printed with Adobe Managing Color and the right profile.
I have also made sure that printer color managment is turned off.
4. Purchased a custom printer profile and repeated the print.

The results from 3 were better (though not acceptable) than 4! In fact the custom printer profile was terrible.

I have noticed that many of the color squares for the target I priinted for the custom profile are out of gamut (especially in the greens) though the actual image I am trying to print is in gamut. Does that tell me something?

Is there something else I should be trying?

I am thinking of trying a custom profile from a different vendor.

I would appreciate any help.

Robert

Is color management turned on in the program you are printing from?

Don't waste your money on custom profiles. If the results are way off, as yours seem to be, it is not the profile (unless it got corrupted somehow). Profiles from printer manufacturers are almost always excellent - they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they provided crappy profiles.

[Robert Boire]

Thanks to all that have contributed, I guess I have a lot to learn.

For those that asked I am using Windows XP and CS3. And yes I have turned of color managment in the printer driver.

Several replies indicated that my viewing area may be too bright.  Probably.  I do not have a very sophisticated set-up and have no way of knowing what my luminance is (how does one control it anyway?).

But... (bear with me I am a neophyte) it seems to me this is a way of saying that what I perceive on the monitor is probably not the " true color" and what I see on my profiled printer is 'right' and that once I adjust the luminance my monitor the image will be closer to my print rather than the other way around. Certainly I have seen the effect that ambient light can have on the appearance of the image on the screen and the print.  However its not just that the print is too dark, its also that some of the colors just are not right. I have looked at the same print on 3 different LCD and a laptop (of which only one has been profiled) and get tolerably similar colors - though admittedly different brightness. So doesn't this imply the problem is with the print itself?

ChasP505 wrote

In the Canon printer settings, are you turning off Print Preview? I know that seems unrelated to the problem, but it's been found to be a cause of color shifts in Canon printers.

This is intriguing. Do you have more information? This may explain why some of my prints do not give consistent results when printed under the same conditions. I will try this.

Wayne

When you say the target colors are "out of gamut", how are you determining that? You shouldn't be using any printer profiles. Soft proofing a target is meaningless ... yes many colors will probably be out of gamut. That's sort of the point ... where is the limit of your printers gamut, the only way to tell that is send it a color that exceeds it, then read the results.

I guess I do not really understand this comment. I checked by soft proofing the target using the generic profile for my printer/paper that I downloaded from the Illford site. I thought this might be an indication of how far off the profile is and whether or not I needed a custom profile.

For that matter what does a custom profile actually do? What does it do with the printed colors in the target that are not correct.

Thanks for the help.

Robert

[Bill Koenig]

Did you disable Adobe Gamma?

[Robert Boire]

Bill,

Ahh.... How do I do that?

Robert

[Wayne Fox]

I guess I do not really understand this comment. I checked by soft proofing the target using the generic profile for my printer/paper that I downloaded from the Illford site. I thought this might be an indication of how far off the profile is and whether or not I needed a custom profile.

For that matter what does a custom profile actually do? What does it do with the printed colors in the target that are not correct.

Thanks for the help.

Robert

Guess I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish by "soft proofing" a target - I assume you are talking about the target you would use if making a profile..  It will show you which patches are "out of gamut" for the printer (which probably will be many of them), and also give you an idea of what that color might actually look like if you print it.  But I don't think that will give you any valuable information, including "how far off the profile is".  I'm not sure what you even mean by that comment ... without a profile your results will be horrible, with a good one you will get the most your printer/paper combination can deliver.

A custom profile allows to to profile your exact printer, rather than using a profile created on the printer the manufacturer used.  A few years ago, that was pretty important, now not so much.  Current printers are manufactured with very tight tolerances so they perform virtually identical.  I don't profile any epson papers any more for newer printers.  I do profile some odd papers or sometimes get a new paper the manufacturer hasn't made profiles yet.  There are some paper makers who do not provide very good profiles so this might be a case of needing a custom profile.  Rather than softproofing the target, you are better off printing a very good test file (such as Bill Atkinson's) using that profile,  and visually examining it for anomalies.  He has some other test files such as his 28 balls file that may help show weaknesses in a profile as well.

I used Ilfords paper a while back, but made my own profile.  I can't speak for the quality of the one they provide - it might be great .. that might be a good question to post since I'm sure there are many using this paper and have gone through this exercise. Personally I would think they're pretty conscientious about the quality of their profiles.

[Robert Boire]

Guess I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish by "soft proofing" a target - I assume you are talking about the target you would use i

I guess in my naive, convoluted way I thought that a soft proof of the target against the generic profile would tell me something about what is going wrong... In fact what really surprised me (I forgot to mention this) was that I also soft proofed the target against the custom profile that was created using the target. I was surprised to see that so many patches were out of gamut. I guess I thought that these colors would be brought into gamut by the custom profile....well I guess I misunderstood...


I will look for Bill Atkinson's test file and try that. Thanks for the advice.

BTW the Canon website suggests 'assign profile' to Adobe instead of using sRGB default profile of the image. Any thoughts on that? I would think it would not change the print much since the sRGB gamut is already wider than the printer gamut?

Thanks

[citizenjoe]

For what it's worth, I have had great success with the Illford supplies profiles for various Epson printers...

Cheers,
Hugh

[DaveRichardson]

Hi Robert,
I am not a colour management expert but have spent a lot of time in the pursuit of soft proofs that match my prints with some degree of success. I hope some of the things I learnt along the way may help you. If any of the real experts believe my advice is incorrect please feel free to correct me.

1. Your monitor - as was mentioned by a previous poster - should not be too bright. I calibrate and profile mine to 86 cd/m which gives a good match to the brightness of paper white in my office. If you want to check, point your camera's spot meter at the screen and a then at a sheet of blank paper under your room viewing. I also proile the monitor to a whitepoint of 6500k.

2. For colour checking - you need to assess your prints under controlled lighting. Normal household lamps will emphasise reds and make greens look less bright. Home and office flourescent tubes are worse still (even those supposedly daylight balanced).  Ideally you would use a viewing booth set to 5000k and set in brightness to your monitor. In practice I use two Ott Lite task lamps positioned approx 80cm above the print. These tubes are not exactly 5000k but I find them close enough for my purposes.

3. When printing with a profile, ensure your printer has colour management off and also uses exactly the same print settings (quality etc) that you used to produce the custom profile (or are recommended for tuse with the manufacturers profiles).

4. The profile of your file should be left alone and not re-assigned for printing (you mentioned advice to change it from sRGB to Adobe RGB). The purpose of colour management is to handle the conversion to the printer.

5. You need to set your software to use the correct printer profile and the same rendering intent that you used for soft proofing. For most photographs that will be perceptual or relative colormetric.
The difference is how out of gamut colours are mapped. Perceptual rendering intent scales the out of gamut colours into the printer gamut but also changes in gamut colours to keep them looking perceptually good relative to each other. Relative colormetric should only move the out of gamut colours - which can introduce some steps or banding.
If your gamut check on softproofing shows you have a lot of out of gamut colours then you are probably better off using perceptual rendering. If your gamut check shows all or most of your colours are in the printer gamut then you are probably better off using relative colormetric rendering, as this will avoid those in gamut colours being desaturated.

6. If you choose relative colormetric rendering - turn on Black Point Compensation. This will lighten the blacks as sent to the printer and prevent a cut off where your printer reaches it's darkest ink but below which your screen still shows detail. (For perceptual rendering this should not be needed).

7. Do not use the test charts that were used to create profiles as a test of the printer profile. These charts contain many out of gamut colours which are used by the profiling software to assess the printers gamut and create the profile. The behaviour you describe on soft proofing is normal and such a chart will show up as having a high proportion of out of gamut colours. You will find a real photograph will usually contain many less.

8. Finally once you do get close (and you will) don't look for perfection - even a good soft proof cannot look exactly the same as a print.

I hope this helps


Dave