Leica S2 thoughts

[peegeenyc]

I was fortunate enough to have an S2 over the Presidents day holiday, to try against my usual combo of P65+ with Phase DF camera.
usage was mainly for street work - very candid, at which this camera excels. Different needs require different tools, so: YMMV

basically I was VERY impressed with the body and lens combination. Build Quality and Optical Quality was probably the highest I have ever seen in a camera, only rivaled maybe by the Contax at its best - like the RTS3.  Super solid, great switches and handling.

I'll try to keep this manageable, so here are some quick pros and cons, compared to Phase:
Note that I do not work tethered. Ever. so no test of that.

PRO:

- Fast efficient AF.  its noticeably better than Phase's new DF. Not up to Canon/Nikon standards of course, but the best MF out there.
- Lens - truly excellent. the only MF camera I have come across that can work wide open without any sacrifice. Yes they all claim that, but only this one truly delivers.
- Speed: very little shutter lag, easily the best MF out there for that. very good frame rate.
- Cards: I used 32 and 64Gb cards (G-Monster) and had no problems with either. formatted fast, worked perfectly. 32Gb = 400+ images, 64Gb = 800+
- Battery life: very good. about 1/3 used after 800 shots
- Reliability: excellent. no hiccups/ hangs/ freezes whatsoever. My Phase DF still freezes occasionally in fast use, requiring a battery out reset.
- I did not hit the buffer once on 3 days of shooting.
- Wow factor: I had 2 people stop me in the street when they saw it in use. nobody does that with a Phase, despite it being the more $ camera.
- Unwow factor: Tape this thing up, it looks like any dSLR, and there's lots of those about these days. great stealth camera for its size.
- Quiet - relatively speaking of course. On a typical city street you cannot hear it above the traffic. You can a Phamiya.


CONS:

- Price: $27,500 with standard lens. ouch. Leica pitched it too high. should be 10-20% less. and a 2 year guarantee should be the minimum at this price.
- File size: its 'only' 37.5Mp, and this is 2010. Phase has had 60Mp out there for 15 months, Canon and Nikon are coming with 30Mp very soon, so it should have been a physically bigger chip in there, at about 45-48Mp. What made them decide to use a sensor so small/ between 35 and MF?
- Moire - lots of it in clothing in sunshine - probably because of lens quality resolving their fabric textures, and the lack of Moire filtering, duh.
- Lenses - too big and heavy for what they are. Need to bring out a compact version of the 70mm at least. A lens that is heavier/ bigger than it needs to be is not good design. I am also a little disappointed they are not faster like f2.0 or 2.2 for the standard. though, as stated above, f2.5 is great and usable.
- Lack of C1 official support yet.
- large DNG files. 70+Mb bogs things down. slows down transfer time, in camera and out. Such files are too big for this size sensor, and when a 60Mp Phase file is under 50Mb, why is this Leica 37Mp file 75Mb size?
- continuous tracking AF does not work. cannot predict focus for anything. Photographing a car or pedestrian moving at a constant speed - nope. Mind you - Canon stumbled at this recently with their 1D3 and 1Ds3, so why should Leica be able to do it first time out.
- Needs more lens options. especially something to go between the 70mm and 35mm primes. thats a big gap.


Summary:

I was totally impressed with it. Yes, there's a few wrinkles. but the naysayers are wrong - its a great functioning camera, which fills a place that no other manufacturer has got close to yet. Maybe a ZD mark 2 by Mamiya/Phase would get close, but there are no indications of that coming - Phase?
 
We should celebrate this different MF form factor - that is to be welcomed. Thank you Leica for thinking outside the box.
The end results are really great, and likely to get better as C1 support and firmware updates come down the pipe.

If Leica discount the US street price on this once the early adopters, who will pay full list are out of the way, or release a "kit" option with lens and body combined as a deal, then they will have a great future for it.

Never thought I'd say this, as I'm not a red dot fan-boy, but:

Congratulations Leica.
 

[ErikKaffehr]

Thanks a lot!

I'm not a potential buyer, because of the cost, but it's nice to see invention from Leica.

Best regards
Erik

I was fortunate enough to have an S2 over the Presidents day holiday, to try against my usual combo of P65+ with Phase DF camera.
usage was mainly for street work - very candid, at which this camera excels. Different needs require different tools, so: YMMV

basically I was VERY impressed with the body and lens combination. Build Quality and Optical Quality was probably the highest I have ever seen in a camera, only rivaled maybe by the Contax at its best - like the RTS3.  Super solid, great switches and handling.

I'll try to keep this manageable, so here are some quick pros and cons, compared to Phase:
Note that I do not work tethered. Ever. so no test of that.

PRO:

- Fast efficient AF.  its noticeably better than Phase's new DF. Not up to Canon/Nikon standards of course, but the best MF out there.
- Lens - truly excellent. the only MF camera I have come across that can work wide open without any sacrifice. Yes they all claim that, but only this one truly delivers.
- Speed: very little shutter lag, easily the best MF out there for that. very good frame rate.
- Cards: I used 32 and 64Gb cards (G-Monster) and had no problems with either. formatted fast, worked perfectly. 32Gb = 400+ images, 64Gb = 800+
- Battery life: very good. about 1/3 used after 800 shots
- Reliability: excellent. no hiccups/ hangs/ freezes whatsoever. My Phase DF still freezes occasionally in fast use, requiring a battery out reset.
- I did not hit the buffer once on 3 days of shooting.
- Wow factor: I had 2 people stop me in the street when they saw it in use. nobody does that with a Phase, despite it being the more $ camera.
- Unwow factor: Tape this thing up, it looks like any dSLR, and there's lots of those about these days. great stealth camera for its size.
- Quiet - relatively speaking of course. On a typical city street you cannot hear it above the traffic. You can a Phamiya.


CONS:

- Price: $27,500 with standard lens. ouch. Leica pitched it too high. should be 10-20% less. and a 2 year guarantee should be the minimum at this price.
- File size: its 'only' 37.5Mp, and this is 2010. Phase has had 60Mp out there for 15 months, Canon and Nikon are coming with 30Mp very soon, so it should have been a physically bigger chip in there, at about 45-48Mp. What made them decide to use a sensor so small/ between 35 and MF?
- Moire - lots of it in clothing in sunshine - probably because of lens quality resolving their fabric textures, and the lack of Moire filtering, duh.
- Lenses - too big and heavy for what they are. Need to bring out a compact version of the 70mm at least. A lens that is heavier/ bigger than it needs to be is not good design. I am also a little disappointed they are not faster like f2.0 or 2.2 for the standard. though, as stated above, f2.5 is great and usable.
- Lack of C1 official support yet.
- large DNG files. 70+Mb bogs things down. slows down transfer time, in camera and out. Such files are too big for this size sensor, and when a 60Mp Phase file is under 50Mb, why is this Leica 37Mp file 75Mb size?
- continuous tracking AF does not work. cannot predict focus for anything. Photographing a car or pedestrian moving at a constant speed - nope. Mind you - Canon stumbled at this recently with their 1D3 and 1Ds3, so why should Leica be able to do it first time out.
- Needs more lens options. especially something to go between the 70mm and 35mm primes. thats a big gap.


Summary:

I was totally impressed with it. Yes, there's a few wrinkles. but the naysayers are wrong - its a great functioning camera, which fills a place that no other manufacturer has got close to yet. Maybe a ZD mark 2 by Mamiya/Phase would get close, but there are no indications of that coming - Phase?
 
We should celebrate this different MF form factor - that is to be welcomed. Thank you Leica for thinking outside the box.
The end results are really great, and likely to get better as C1 support and firmware updates come down the pipe.

If Leica discount the US street price on this once the early adopters, who will pay full list are out of the way, or release a "kit" option with lens and body combined as a deal, then they will have a great future for it.

Never thought I'd say this, as I'm not a red dot fan-boy, but:

Congratulations Leica.

[BJNY]

Thanks, peegee, for concise, well-written post.

[narikin]

- Price: $27,500 with standard lens. ouch. Leica pitched it too high. should be 10-20% less. and a 2 year guarantee should be the minimum at this price.

If Leica discount the US street price on this...  or release a "kit" option with lens and body combined as a deal, then they will have a great future for it.

Yes, and its cheaper in Europe now. Leica locked the US price when the Dollar:Euro rate was at an historic high, and are now beached by that. The Euro has dropped back from 1.5 to 1.35 to the dollar, so you can now get the body + standard lens at $3000+ less in Europe. and thats at official list price, before the discounts that are coming.  Consequently Leica need to adjust the US price down by 15% at least. A "kit" offer seems a good idea.

If I was a US dealer I'd be pretty mad at the business I'm going to loose. If I was Leica I'd be very worried about stalling in the biggest market in the world.  

[fredjeang]

I was fortunate enough to have an S2 over the Presidents day holiday, to try against my usual combo of P65+ with Phase DF camera.
usage was mainly for street work - very candid, at which this camera excels. Different needs require different tools, so: YMMV

basically I was VERY impressed with the body and lens combination. Build Quality and Optical Quality was probably the highest I have ever seen in a camera, only rivaled maybe by the Contax at its best - like the RTS3.  Super solid, great switches and handling.

I'll try to keep this manageable, so here are some quick pros and cons, compared to Phase:
Note that I do not work tethered. Ever. so no test of that.

PRO:

- Fast efficient AF.  its noticeably better than Phase's new DF. Not up to Canon/Nikon standards of course, but the best MF out there.
- Lens - truly excellent. the only MF camera I have come across that can work wide open without any sacrifice. Yes they all claim that, but only this one truly delivers.
- Speed: very little shutter lag, easily the best MF out there for that. very good frame rate.
- Cards: I used 32 and 64Gb cards (G-Monster) and had no problems with either. formatted fast, worked perfectly. 32Gb = 400+ images, 64Gb = 800+
- Battery life: very good. about 1/3 used after 800 shots
- Reliability: excellent. no hiccups/ hangs/ freezes whatsoever. My Phase DF still freezes occasionally in fast use, requiring a battery out reset.
- I did not hit the buffer once on 3 days of shooting.
- Wow factor: I had 2 people stop me in the street when they saw it in use. nobody does that with a Phase, despite it being the more $ camera.
- Unwow factor: Tape this thing up, it looks like any dSLR, and there's lots of those about these days. great stealth camera for its size.
- Quiet - relatively speaking of course. On a typical city street you cannot hear it above the traffic. You can a Phamiya.


CONS:

- Price: $27,500 with standard lens. ouch. Leica pitched it too high. should be 10-20% less. and a 2 year guarantee should be the minimum at this price.
- File size: its 'only' 37.5Mp, and this is 2010. Phase has had 60Mp out there for 15 months, Canon and Nikon are coming with 30Mp very soon, so it should have been a physically bigger chip in there, at about 45-48Mp. What made them decide to use a sensor so small/ between 35 and MF?
- Moire - lots of it in clothing in sunshine - probably because of lens quality resolving their fabric textures, and the lack of Moire filtering, duh.
- Lenses - too big and heavy for what they are. Need to bring out a compact version of the 70mm at least. A lens that is heavier/ bigger than it needs to be is not good design. I am also a little disappointed they are not faster like f2.0 or 2.2 for the standard. though, as stated above, f2.5 is great and usable.
- Lack of C1 official support yet.
- large DNG files. 70+Mb bogs things down. slows down transfer time, in camera and out. Such files are too big for this size sensor, and when a 60Mp Phase file is under 50Mb, why is this Leica 37Mp file 75Mb size?
- continuous tracking AF does not work. cannot predict focus for anything. Photographing a car or pedestrian moving at a constant speed - nope. Mind you - Canon stumbled at this recently with their 1D3 and 1Ds3, so why should Leica be able to do it first time out.
- Needs more lens options. especially something to go between the 70mm and 35mm primes. thats a big gap.


Summary:

I was totally impressed with it. Yes, there's a few wrinkles. but the naysayers are wrong - its a great functioning camera, which fills a place that no other manufacturer has got close to yet. Maybe a ZD mark 2 by Mamiya/Phase would get close, but there are no indications of that coming - Phase?
 
We should celebrate this different MF form factor - that is to be welcomed. Thank you Leica for thinking outside the box.
The end results are really great, and likely to get better as C1 support and firmware updates come down the pipe.

If Leica discount the US street price on this once the early adopters, who will pay full list are out of the way, or release a "kit" option with lens and body combined as a deal, then they will have a great future for it.

Never thought I'd say this, as I'm not a red dot fan-boy, but:

Congratulations Leica.

Thanks Peegee for this field infos.
Well, it certainly has some very good points, first as you mentionned a brave intent from Leica to put a different system on the market, BUT some of the cons are serious though.
1) the camera is overpriced AND will be soon obsolete (37MP);  future models Canon-Nikon and maybe Sony and maybe the more than certain now Pentax 645D will put the S2 in a very delicate situation.

2) The lens range is too limited for the moment, but it will change for sure.

3) The huge DNG files combined with the slow transfer rate is a major problem. When you have client or art-director pressure watching behind your shoulders on computer screen, not talking about the sensation of frustration from the owner. This is not tolerable at this price level.
This could be fixed with firmware? Certainly they will do something very soon because this could sink the boat if they don't.

4)As you mentionned, in a time of crisis, a 1 year guarantee sounds "a little" stingy, for a 20000 euros body that is not apparently matured yet...
and that, gives a kind of bad taste in terms of image.

Price including taxes is 21900 body only for the S2-P with 70 2.5 3590 = more than 25000 euros, if you want the 70 2.5 CS price is 4650.

I hope they fix the problems and they succeed.

Cheers,

Fred.

[EricWHiss]

Thanks for the review. What I'm really waiting for is a service report.  Lot's of people will argue whether Leica intended the camera for wealthy enthusiasts or for pros but service will tell us the answer.

Here's a little leica personal story, perhaps those who bought M8's have their own:

I sent off my DMR/R8 and a lens in mid Jan to Leica NJ this year for its 2nd trip to service in 3 years.  No word from them until I received a letter in the mail about 3wks later with an estimate for the R8 repair and a 2nd letter came a day later with a quote for the DMR.  Leica still expects its customers to communicate via regular post and intended for me to sign and return by mail the repair authorization.  I called and was able to reach someone that allowed me to do this over the phone and I asked if there would be a 3rd letter coming with a quote for the CLA on the lens.  What lens?  After about 5 minutes she came back and said that the lens had been send to Solms, Germany and that in another 3-4 weeks I would get a quote from them.     After the repairs are authorized they expect 4-6wks to complete these.  Well the R8 transport mechanism was repaired 2 years back for similar thing and it took a total of 5months for the whole process.  I hope it doesn't take that long this time but its going to be easily 3 months.  How's that for service?    The S2 is supposed to have a faster service - but has anyone tested it?

[Guy Mancuso]

Jack and I reviewed it back in November http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243 and leica is sending it out again for our next workshop. I agree with most of your points but I did not find the Leica glass better wide open than even my 80mmD. Not planning on any formal testing but more for folks to try it out but I may do a couple things with it and maybe some more wide open stuff. My one issue is there has not been much change since November with firmware, tethering, large DNG's and more lenses etc etc. which does make me worry for there sake. It's a interesting camera for MF but it still carry's some issues that are a concern and will it make it in the real world. Right now Hassy,Phase and now Leaf all have or are coming out with 40 mpx sensors. I own the P40+ which i do like a lot and it's to early to tell if the S2 will make it in the Pro market. But two lenses right now is a major road block, so that has to improve a great deal before I think many Pro's get to serious about it. Time will tell and any new system coming to market takes time for sure. BTW nice writeup and conclusions

[Doug Peterson]

Likewise our lens tests of the 70mm and 180mm Leica lenses showed very good performance wide open. However, the latest prime lenses from Phase One (the D series and Schneider lenses) are very good wide open as well so the potential for improvement is not what it might have been 2-3 years ago.

Downloadable DNGs available here: http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/leica/

Doug Peterson
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[fredjeang]

Jack and I reviewed it back in November http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243 and leica is sending it out again for our next workshop. I agree with most of your points but I did not find the Leica glass better wide open than even my 80mmD. Not planning on any formal testing but more for folks to try it out but I may do a couple things with it and maybe some more wide open stuff. My one issue is there has not been much change since November with firmware, tethering, large DNG's and more lenses etc etc. which does make me worry for there sake. It's a interesting camera for MF but it still carry's some issues that are a concern and will it make it in the real world. Right now Hassy,Phase and now Leaf all have or are coming out with 40 mpx sensors. I own the P40+ which i do like a lot and it's to early to tell if the S2 will make it in the Pro market. But two lenses right now is a major road block, so that has to improve a great deal before I think many Pro's get to serious about it. Time will tell and any new system coming to market takes time for sure. BTW nice writeup and conclusions

Guy,
I saw the review in .getdpi and something caught my attention in the first pictures: we can appreciate very well the scale side by side. The Phase does not seems bad at all as far as portability-handling is concerned. I point that because it is one of the S2 claim. What is your impression in this field comparing the 2 cameras?
Thanks,
Fred.

[pcunite]

I was totally impressed with it. Yes, there's a few wrinkles. but the naysayers are wrong - its a great functioning camera, which fills a place that no other manufacturer has got close to yet. Maybe a ZD mark 2 by Mamiya/Phase would get close, but there are no indications of that coming - Phase?

The naysayers are not wrong, your cons are why the S2 is not a viable option for working professionals. This camera was not intended to be a pro's (i.e. need to shoot for money) camera. This is a camera for hobbyists.

The S2, while of course a very nice camera, does not solve the MFD vs. 35mm disparity from a usability standpoint or price standpoint. It closes the gap on some and widens it on others.

[Guy Mancuso]

Guy,
I saw the review in .getdpi and something caught my attention in the first pictures: we can appreciate very well the scale side by side. The Phase does not seems bad at all as far as portability-handling is concerned. I point that because it is one of the S2 claim. What is your impression in this field comparing the 2 cameras?
Thanks,
Fred.

Kind of interesting really the weight overall is about the same . Phase being heavier body/back but lighter and smaller lenses. S2 being lighter more 35 style but lenses are bulky and heavy. The other one interesting thing is balance and how you like a setup. Personally I like the heavier body lighter lens cause i can fit the Phase in the palm of my left hand and focus manually better and still get a good grip on the right hand. The S2 the bottom of the grip was pretty wide so for smaller hands harder on pinky and ring finger to hold on plus the lens becomes more front heavy so more pressure on the right hand. Now obviously some will like it either way for sure and you should really handle one and see what balance feels better. I know many make the 35mm style claim far better but I do not even though a Phase, Hassy seems bulkier because of the back itself. I kind of like it as strange as it seems. Now the S2 LCD is far better for sure but I also do not like a 3:2 format over a 4:3 format. I thought that would be easy to revert back but I did not and I shot 35mm for decades. I guess you could argue either way and no one would really win that argument and I think for many folks like myself i am more feel person when it comes to the mechanics. So you really need to hold one and work with it a couple hours. Excellent question BTW because i think the 35mm style of body is nice but even so could be better. To me the biggest asset in any of the bodies is a hand strap, I'm pretty big on that one and actually use a Hassy hand strap on my Phase body. Mix and match. LOL

[TMARK]

The naysayers are not wrong, your cons are why the S2 is not a viable option for working professionals. This camera was not intended to be a pro's (i.e. need to shoot for money) camera. This is a camera for hobbyists.

They need to make it $20k MSRP, $15k - $18,5k street, with the 70mm., fix the tethering problems, get them in rental and show some real pro service with loaners, make it a two year base warranty, and then you will get some traction on Blad and Phase, and Canon.  That may not be possible, but that is the market.

Truth be told, the H4d-40 looks awesome, has a good, available, complete lens line, and may be a big improvement on the H3 line.  From what I've seen the 1600 iso performance is very good, and its much cheaper than the S2.  I haven't checked on the Mamiya DF and the P40+, but I'm sure you can get it way cheaper than the S2, and the lens line is finally nearing completion with the Schneider lenses and the huge number of cheap and high quality Mamiya lenses.

To me the issue is tehthering, price and iso, not necessarily in that order.  If a camera fails on any of these specs its a deal breaker.  Perhaps travel shooters might be all over this camera, but what is that market like?  Are they screaming for a $65k system, when film and a Pentax 67 does the trick?  

[bcooter]

They need to make it $20k MSRP, $15k - $18,5k street,...........

I'd think a lot less than 20, but I think the only real valid question on a camera like the S-2 is . . . "are you gonna buy it?"

We saw this with the HY6/AFI where blogger, reviewer, pee rrr urrr, all raved on about the system but in the end not a lot of people bought them, in the end since not a lot of people bought them, not a lot of promised stuff came out for the camera.

I think the second question to ask about a new system, even a proven new system is can you afford to make a mistake?   Dropping $6,500 on a Pentax and selling it for half price would not be fun but nothing near like buying a Leica S2 and the two available lenses and then selling those off.

I think an issue of specialty cameras is what do you use for backup, at least in the professional world, because you gotta have backups for everything.  Do you buy two S-2's, Pee 65's or do you buy a medium format camera and throw a 5d2 into the bag?  Most people throw a 5d2 in the bag and after a while realize on those days they use both cameras, nobody looking at the monitor seems to notice a difference.

I know a lot of photographers with more than one dslr even the $7,000 a body 35mm systems,  but few with two complete medium format systems  and not to hyjack this thread but that is where the Pentax looks attractive in that you can own two.

But even looking at the  pentax, I have to think would I spend the money on that, given I now own two digital backs and more than 2 complete contax systems that I seem to use less and less.  In fact I think about selling them but the used market keeps retracting and since they are paid for I kind of figure why not just keep them for those days I want or need a non aa filtered camera?

I'm not debating "ultimate image quality" here because that goes nowhere or just goes round and round, but the real question on any camera is are you gonna buy it and if you do write that check will it make you a better photographer and/or more profit?

The camera that made me the most profit and a better photographer was the 1ds1, because it shot like film with few issues and allowed me to work in a way film didn't.  Next was the Aptus 22 and p31+ because back in the digital frenzy days, it kept the full service rental companies out of my business and now the third most profitable camera I use is the 5d2 because it allows decent quality video at true bargain priced buy in.

IMO

BC

[TMARK]

I'd think a lot less than 20, but I think the only real valid question on a camera like the S-2 is . . . "are you gonna buy it?"

We saw this with the HY6/AFI where blogger, reviewer, pee rrr urrr, all raved on about the system but in the end not a lot of people bought them, in the end since not a lot of people bought them, not a lot of promised stuff came out for the camera.

I think the second question to ask about a new system, even a proven new system is can you afford to make a mistake?   Dropping $6,500 on a Pentax and selling it for half price would not be fun but nothing near like buying a Leica S2 and the two available lenses and then selling those off.

I think an issue of specialty cameras is what do you use for backup, at least in the professional world, because you gotta have backups for everything.  Do you buy two S-2's, Pee 65's or do you buy a medium format camera and throw a 5d2 into the bag?  Most people throw a 5d2 in the bag and after a while realize on those days they use both cameras, nobody looking at the monitor seems to notice a difference.

I know a lot of photographers with more than one dslr even the $7,000 a body 35mm systems,  but few with two complete medium format systems  and not to hyjack this thread but that is where the Pentax looks attractive in that you can own two.

But even looking at the  pentax, I have to think would I spend the money on that, given I now own two digital backs and more than 2 complete contax systems that I seem to use less and less.  In fact I think about selling them but the used market keeps retracting and since they are paid for I kind of figure why not just keep them for those days I want or need a non aa filtered camera?

I'm not debating "ultimate image quality" here because that goes nowhere or just goes round and round, but the real question on any camera is are you gonna buy it and if you do write that check will it make you a better photographer and/or more profit?

The camera that made me the most profit and a better photographer was the 1ds1, because it shot like film with few issues and allowed me to work in a way film didn't.  Next was the Aptus 22 and p31+ because back in the digital frenzy days, it kept the full service rental companies out of my business and now the third most profitable camera I use is the 5d2 because it allows decent quality video at true bargain priced buy in.

IMO

BC

I aint buying it.  I have an Aptus that hasn't had the batteries charged in a while that I shoot on an RZ.  I really like this set up for static portraits with strobes, in fact I think its one of the best systems out there (cheap, high quality), but no one, and I mean no paying commercial client, has me shoot like that anymore.  

Now that we are gaining some perspective on photographic styles from the first decade, there was a lot of strobe, contrasty, hard lighting that really became possible with digital (clean shadows) and cost effective extensive retouching tools.  I was looking at something I shot in 2005 with the D2x and 60mm Micro, hard hard light side light key, I think from a Magnum with the 10 degree grid on it, a little fill to open the shadows from an Octa set way back and at the lowest output from the Pro6, all really dark and contrasty stuff.  The original files are razor sharp, and the models skin looks like an ordinance firing range in the desert.  We could of course retouch that out, but the sharpness and contrast, smoothness, saturation of these new tools made everything look artificial, which in 2005-2006 was awesome.  Now its cheesy.  No client wants that look anymore, at least not mine.  The non-AA filter cameras, even the M8, are often too sharp for me.  Its tungsten, wide open, soft and dreamy with a bit of realism or grit that they want, in conjunction with a motion shoot.

So no, I won't be buying an S2.  I think the next purchase is a pair of ds3's, maybe a ds4, depending on how they implement the video.

[geesbert]

About Leica's service: Me too I was waiting a long time for my m8 to get fixed in Solms. a couple of weeks ago I called them to ask whether there was any way to speed thing up. they told me about express repairs which are quite costly and then they told me about their professional service, which you can join if you show that you make a living out of photography and if you let them know, that your whole closet is full of Leica gear. I sent my application away a month ago. I called them two weeks ago, they told me I am in, but haven't received their paperwork yet.

they say as a member of professional services you can get your gear repaired in two days. my M9 need calibration, but I won't wait two months for that...

[gwhitf]

I sent off my DMR/R8 and a lens in mid Jan to Leica NJ this year for its 2nd trip to service in 3 years.  No word from them until I received a letter in the mail about 3wks later with an estimate for the R8 repair and a 2nd letter came a day later with a quote for the DMR.  Leica still expects its customers to communicate via regular post and intended for me to sign and return by mail the repair authorization.  I called and was able to reach someone that allowed me to do this over the phone and I asked if there would be a 3rd letter coming with a quote for the CLA on the lens.  What lens?  After about 5 minutes she came back and said that the lens had been send to Solms, Germany and that in another 3-4 weeks I would get a quote from them.     After the repairs are authorized they expect 4-6wks to complete these.  Well the R8 transport mechanism was repaired 2 years back for similar thing and it took a total of 5months for the whole process.  I hope it doesn't take that long this time but its going to be easily 3 months.  How's that for service?    The S2 is supposed to have a faster service - but has anyone tested it?

These two repair stories are mindblowing. To me, it just illustrates the fact that Leica needs to be categorized as some kind of boutique specialty camera, in a whole other category from one that services customers that make their living from using their products. Months to get something back? Amazing.

I'm sure, for some kind of non-tethering travel/safari camera, when it's working properly, it's a fine camera, (if there were more than two lenses available for it).

This is a camera for a person who would never bother asking the price. And if it went down, he'd just flip his AMEX on the counter again, buy a second one, and wait for the first one to be repaired.

This is not a camera system for Mere Mortals.

[TMARK]

If the Pentax is really delivered and is really $6500 and is really 40MP and is really anything other than a bug-eyed dog without a mother then the fun will be seeing the reaction of the other MFD players.

Yup.  If it happens, and its a big if, and it really is as good as, say, an H3 31, a bunch of questions come to mind.  First and formost, what drives the Phase/Leaf/Blad prices, if Pentax can get it on for $6500?

The Pentax doesn't have to be as good as a H4d40, it just needs to be on par with the P30+ to change the whole industry.

[pschefz]

it comes down to the same issue though...everyone who needs to shoot DMF already owned a back or rented them...there are some other people on the fence...not quite dentists maybe....who might finally jump on a 6500 DMF....but then again: i saw a demo hy6/sinar back kit (more then 30000 new) with full warranty from a very reputable dealer for about 10000.....and i honestly don't think the pentax will be as nice as that one...

i agree with the opinion that the dmf backs are too sharp.....when i started looking at leica lenses for the canons i quickly found out that the latest apos did not give me the look i was hoping for....even with my older/lower end R lenses i turn sharpen off when i process my 5DII files....a little local sharpen in post is much better....i shot an actor with my 90 not too long ago....wide open...beautiful tones and the lashes are tack sharp without ever looking digital or brittle.....

my first leaf back had a look like that....the phase backs were always (almost too) crisp....shooting withe RZ lenses actually helped a bit...smoother tones...

[bcooter]

it comes down to the same issue though...everyone who needs to shoot DMF already owned a back or rented them...snip_______

i agree with the opinion that the dmf backs are too sharp.....when i started looking at leica lenses for the canons i quickly found out that the latest apos did not give me the look i was hoping for....even with my older/lower end R lenses i turn sharpen off

A friend sent me this link.  (I hope it doesn't mind me posting it).

http://feaverishphotography.com/blog/

I like most of this work and even see some commercial applications to it, but when you look at it and think about cameras, what camera would you chose for this style/styles?

Probably about anything that shot film, but film is in my past, at least on the days I make money so what "digital" camera would one of these photographers on this blog chose and would "ultimate image quality" be part of this equation?

Personally I think I'd use my first 1ds1, or maybe a Leica M8 with the sliders moved over to very soft, but then I think heck why not just get one of those pink panasonic cameras.

It shoots stills and video, you can put a pl mount on it and laugh all you want about a pink camera, but what Life Guard is  gonna bust you at Will Rogers Beach shooting with a pink camera?

I almost went over to Samy's and bought one today but ran out of time.  Yea Pink, the NO PERMIT NEEDED camera.

I really think this stuff is just getting back to where film cameras were a long time ago, where the cameras have hit a plateau, (at least with still capture).

Sure you could change things by changing film, though today photoshop is the digital film, a 23" monitor is the canvas.

Still looking at this blog the thing that really strikes me is  . . . it ain't the camera.

BC

[pschefz]

A friend sent me this link.  (I hope it doesn't mind me posting it).

http://feaverishphotography.com/blog/

I like most of this work and even see some commercial applications to it, but when you look at it and think about cameras, what camera would you chose for this style/styles?

Probably about anything that shot film, but film is in my past, at least on the days I make money so what "digital" camera would one of these photographers on this blog chose and would "ultimate image quality" be part of this equation?

Personally I think I'd use my first 1ds1, or maybe a Leica M8 with the sliders moved over to very soft, but then I think heck why not just get one of those pink panasonic cameras.

It shoots stills and video, you can put a pl mount on it and laugh all you want about a pink camera, but what Life Guard is  gonna bust you at Will Rogers Beach shooting with a pink camera?

I almost went over to Samy's and bought one today but ran out of time.  Yea Pink, the NO PERMIT NEEDED camera.

I really think this stuff is just getting back to where film cameras were a long time ago, where the cameras have hit a plateau, (at least with still capture).

Sure you could change things by changing film, though today photoshop is the digital film, a 23" monitor is the canvas.

Still looking at this blog the thing that really strikes me is  . . . it ain't the camera.

BC

i shot a project ( a long time ago) on 35mm....got the contacts....edited, made some prints, wasn't happy, made some more, still wasn't right, kept going back to looking at the contacts on the lightbox through the loupe....until it hit me....got a copystand, shot the frames i wanted on the contacts with a macro on slide film, played with the exposure and color filters a bit and got the perfect look....scratches and that weird glow that comes from the film being in the contact sleeves......

another time i went to a mag and happened to have with me some terrible letter size inkjet prints (this is in the 90s, so the quality was funky) of a finished story shot with a 680 on color neg film...the "real files" had beautiful tones, tons of detail.....the art director loved the story but he also loved the way he saw it for the first time....when he got the beautiful, rich prints he gave me a call and we decided on a middle ground...they ended up working from slightly better and larger inkjet prints.....

what is important is how it looks in the end......

watched this yesterday...the full helmut&june documentary on youtube.....a guy and a camera....i love how he keeps shooting on automatic.....i also want his printer btw.....