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Author Topic: Decurl Longevity???  (Read 7955 times)

CDTyson

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Decurl Longevity???
« on: February 14, 2010, 12:01:50 pm »

Hello,

I really like to the look of a floated framed print.  The issue I have seen is that the paper used has a tendency to curl and not lie flat.  My guess is the artists is using roll paper that has not been properly decurled.  Quality of mounting may be an issue too.

My plan is to "float" my own images but wonder if properly decurling (using methods found in this forum) will permanently reverse roll paper memory?  I have yet to decide on roll paper (44" wide) verses sheet.  The paper would over hang as much as 1/2" on all sides.

I understand there are external influences such that humidity, paper thickness, start and end of roll and so on.

Does anyone have any comments, advise and or experience with longevity of a decurled image?  Does decurling really last when the print is floated?

Cheers,

Doug
http://www.cdtyson.com
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Doug
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 02:46:36 pm »

Quote from: zzzzbeer
Does anyone have any comments, advise and or experience with longevity of a decurled image?  Does decurling really last when the print is floated?

Cheers,

Doug
http://www.cdtyson.com


There will be short term memory in paper that has been on rolls, more from 2" than 3" cores, more from old rolls than fresh rolls.

Differences between front and back of the paper, one sided coating and its weight relative to the paper base will influence curling caused by humidity. Dual side coating should eliminate that. There are enough banner systems to control the flatness of floating prints even more.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/


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CDTyson

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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 06:58:56 pm »

Thanks for the reply Ernst.  

Would you please expand on your comment... There are enough banner systems to control the flatness of floating prints even more.

Not quite sure what you are referring to.

Cheers.

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Doug
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 06:14:24 am »

Quote from: zzzzbeer
Thanks for the reply Ernst.  

Would you please expand on your comment... There are enough banner systems to control the flatness of floating prints even more.

Not quite sure what you are referring to.

Cheers.

A first hit with Google, one of many:
http://www.letsgobanners.com/html/stands_and_displays.html

That is for trade shows etc, I do not claim it is a solution for a gallery but the problem is known and solutions exist


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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CDTyson

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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 09:37:44 am »

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
A first hit with Google, one of many:
http://www.letsgobanners.com/html/stands_and_displays.html

That is for trade shows etc, I do not claim it is a solution for a gallery but the problem is known and solutions exist


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

Again thanks for the reply Ernst.

My apologies as my definition of float may not have been clear. I was referring to a framed behind glass finished product and not trade show banners.

The technique I had in mind was adhering the fine art print (from roll paper, and decurled) to mat-board (thickness 1/4" to 3/8").  The mat-board would be cut smaller to allow for a 1/2" overhang on all sides.  The finished product would then be framed behind glass.  Floating would give the overall appearance of the image popping out of the frame.

When looking at the way others have done this, the curl of the roll paper is evident in their finished product.  My question is will the curl come back with time (months, years) even if the paper was properly de-curled?  I am struggling with this as large sheet paper seem pricer than the roll products.

Cheers,

Doug
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Randy Carone

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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 11:23:41 am »

I have floated panorama shots in frames but the image (9" x 54") was mounted to foamboard and trimmed full bleed. The foamboard I used was black and the edge was visible if you looked from an angle. The mounted image was floated by using a few smaller stacked pieces of scrap foamboard to suspend the image between the white backing board in the frame and the glass. The frame I used was black and deep enough so it was obvious that the image was not flush with the back of the frame's internal space . Using this method, the foamboard may have been less noticeable if it was white, but the black edge didn't detract from the overall effect, especially since the frame was black. I think it would be difficult to ensure that the image would stay absolutely flat unless it was backed on the entire area.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 12:03:20 pm »

Alright, thought about a more free floating display.

I get the picture and have seen it done that way. As foam is mentioned, wonder whether 4 small two side adhesive flexible foam (polyethylene foam) pieces could be used for the corners and some tension created by the flexebility of the foam. Enough to dampen the curling, not too much to show the stress on the paper.

I bet laminating to board that falls  a quarter inch within the print page is better.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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framah

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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 12:49:27 pm »

This might help...

If you can, have the prints placed in a heat press and the heat and pressure will flatten it and it stays flat. The decurlers will not actually reset the memory of the paper fibers while the heat and pressure seems to do that.  
I'm sure a local framer can flatten them for you for a small fee.

I do this with most of the stuff I print  with my 9900 unless I'm dry mounting in which case it doesn't matter.
I'm about to load a bunch of photos for a customer into the heat press so they will be nice and flat for him.  With my heat table  it will take 4 minutes in the press and about 4-5 to cool down under weight.

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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 03:41:28 pm »

Quote from: zzzzbeer
Again thanks for the reply Ernst.

My apologies as my definition of float may not have been clear. I was referring to a framed behind glass finished product and not trade show banners.

The technique I had in mind was adhering the fine art print (from roll paper, and decurled) to mat-board (thickness 1/4" to 3/8").  The mat-board would be cut smaller to allow for a 1/2" overhang on all sides.  The finished product would then be framed behind glass.  Floating would give the overall appearance of the image popping out of the frame.

When looking at the way others have done this, the curl of the roll paper is evident in their finished product.  My question is will the curl come back with time (months, years) even if the paper was properly de-curled?  I am struggling with this as large sheet paper seem pricer than the roll products.

Cheers,

Doug

You can use less of an overhang.  Typically the mounting matt is cut with a reverse 45 degree bevel and is only 1/8 or 3/16" smaller than the print, which isn't enough to cause noticeable curling. This is then floated around 1/4" to 1/2" behind the glass (depending on your frame moulding).  I use another matt  directly under the glass, leaving about 1/2 to 1" of space between that and the float. I reverse bevel that as well so the edge is crisp.  Once you do this you can't see mounting matt from any angel even though it is barely smaller than the print.

 I usually use a black velour matt for the bottom matt behind the floated image so all light is absorbed enhancing the float look.  I do this with both fine art paper which I sometimes use a torn edge, as well as using full bleed on papers such as EEF.
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Paul2660

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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2010, 04:20:29 pm »

Wayne

Could you post a few pictures showing the method you are describing?
Thanks

Paul Caldwell
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 04:22:49 pm by Paul2660 »
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CDTyson

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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 06:57:19 pm »

Quote from: pearlstreet
Doug, I would love to see a picture of this type of framing. Do you have a link?

Sharon
Sorry Sharon, I don't have an image to point you to.  I have seen this technique in galleries only.

Cheers,
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Doug
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CDTyson

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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2010, 07:00:46 pm »

Quote from: framah
This might help...

If you can, have the prints placed in a heat press and the heat and pressure will flatten it and it stays flat. The decurlers will not actually reset the memory of the paper fibers while the heat and pressure seems to do that.  
I'm sure a local framer can flatten them for you for a small fee.

I do this with most of the stuff I print  with my 9900 unless I'm dry mounting in which case it doesn't matter.
I'm about to load a bunch of photos for a customer into the heat press so they will be nice and flat for him.  With my heat table  it will take 4 minutes in the press and about 4-5 to cool down under weight.
Thanks very much for the suggestion.  Did not think about this.

Cheers,
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CDTyson

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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2010, 07:26:13 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
You can use less of an overhang.  Typically the mounting matt is cut with a reverse 45 degree bevel and is only 1/8 or 3/16" smaller than the print, which isn't enough to cause noticeable curling. This is then floated around 1/4" to 1/2" behind the glass (depending on your frame moulding).

Hey Wayne.  

Ah, yes, this works for me... especially the reverse 45 degree cut for the mounting matts.

Thanks very much for your input.

Cheers,
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CDTyson

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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2010, 07:32:37 pm »

With all this great input I am getting a sense that memory from roll paper is still an issue even after using d-roller (or similar) to de-curl paper.  The methods used above, are great for mitigating the curl but it seems that the curl will come back at some point.  The key is to expect roll curl to return and to mount accordingly.

Cheers,
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 03:18:55 pm »

Quote from: zzzzbeer
With all this great input I am getting a sense that memory from roll paper is still an issue even after using d-roller (or similar) to de-curl paper.  The methods used above, are great for mitigating the curl but it seems that the curl will come back at some point.  The key is to expect roll curl to return and to mount accordingly.
Not sure if curling is the issue.  Once matted and framed most prints will stay pretty flat.  I think the problem comes from larger ones that tend to show some warping depending on humidity levels.  In the case of float mounting being discussed in this thread, this can be more problematic if you don't mount it since there is nothing against the print to keep it flat.

Personally I mount anything larger than about 20x24 to insure the print stays flat.  In fact lately I have been getting away from matting altogether, and just go full bleed in a frame with a liner, with museum glass or acrylic between the liner and the frame so it's no where near the surface of the glass.

My latest quest is figuring out how Michael Fatali mounts his prints.  I just visited his new gallery in Park City, Utah, and all of his images are face mounted to museum glass ... they really look stunning.  You have to look really closely to realize they aren't just floating in space.  He says they are all still cibachrome prints, so this may not be something that can be done with inkjet, but I really like the look.
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Thomas Krüger

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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 03:55:49 pm »

Lion Framing in England has a new flyer about a system with acrylic panel frames:
http://www.lionpic.co.uk/InfoStore/InfoSto...aspx?docid=2453
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2010, 03:23:40 am »

Quote from: ThomasK
Lion Framing in England has a new flyer about a system with acrylic panel frames:
http://www.lionpic.co.uk/InfoStore/InfoSto...aspx?docid=2453
I've seen similar things, very nice look.  However, there is something about Fatali's  face mounting to  high grade museum glass (minimal reflections) that adds a different quality to the look.  hard to describe, but really cool.
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Thomas Krüger

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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2010, 06:41:49 am »

Lascoux Switzerland has water-soluble acrylic adhesives: "For wet application or reactivation of dry film, on absorbent and nonabsorbent supports such as paper and cardboard, textiles, wood- and fibreplates, polyesterplates, plaster and concrete, glass and acrylic glass, aluminium etc.
http://www.lascaux.ch/pdf/en/produkte/rest...dhesive_wax.pdf
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Sven W

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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2010, 07:04:13 am »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
I've seen similar things, very nice look.  However, there is something about Fatali's  face mounting to  high grade museum glass (minimal reflections) that adds a different quality to the look.  hard to describe, but really cool.

Face mounting can be made in many ways and flavours. Originally created as "Diasec" by Heinz Sovilla-Brulhart; Switzerland in the late 60's.
Diasec is a secret formula and therefore Trademarked and licensed out to mounting studios.

But there are other options and methods to achieve the same result. Some use "optical" adhesive on plexi, others have their own formula of
silicon rubber + museum glass. I've also seen some, made with ClearColour White Glass with a minimum of reflections. Absolutely stunning!

The problem with face mounting inkjet prints, is the wet-process with the siliconrubber and the print to "take" the silicon even. It takes about 24h to "hardened" and therfore the print has to withstand that time. But I found a solution, printing on Epson PremiumGloss/SemiGloss, encapsulating the ink. And then almost forced a company here in Sweden to try to mount it. It worked perfect !! But they only made this tryout; because they want to make their own C-prints.

Here's a very comprehensive white-paper for the interested:
http://www.martinjuergens.net/Assets/downl...is_Juergens.pdf

/Sven
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2010, 08:24:00 am »

Quote from: Sven W
Face mounting can be made in many ways and flavours. Originally created as "Diasec" by Heinz Sovilla-Brulhart; Switzerland in the late 60's.
Diasec is a secret formula and therefore Trademarked and licensed out to mounting studios.

But there are other options and methods to achieve the same result. Some use "optical" adhesive on plexi, others have their own formula of
silicon rubber + museum glass. I've also seen some, made with ClearColour White Glass with a minimum of reflections. Absolutely stunning!

The problem with face mounting inkjet prints, is the wet-process with the siliconrubber and the print to "take" the silicon even. It takes about 24h to "hardened" and therfore the print has to withstand that time. But I found a solution, printing on Epson PremiumGloss/SemiGloss, encapsulating the ink. And then almost forced a company here in Sweden to try to mount it. It worked perfect !! But they only made this tryout; because they want to make their own C-prints.

Here's a very comprehensive white-paper for the interested:
http://www.martinjuergens.net/Assets/downl...is_Juergens.pdf

/Sven

Sven,


No interests in the company but Wilcovak in The Netherlands, a Diasec licensee, will mount inkjet prints made on several paper types. The RC coated papers with an extra lamination to create a bond, the matt art paper like Photorag, German Etching straight to PMMA or PC.

The link you gave is interesting. A pity that digital print in that document still refers to chromogenic material, in 2001 the choices in inkjet were limited. Very few pigment inks then so it may have been a wise decision not to include dye inkjet prints in that study.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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