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Author Topic: To zoom or not?  (Read 5240 times)

hsmeets

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To zoom or not?
« on: February 09, 2010, 06:35:07 am »

Hi,

Don't flame me if this topic has already been beaten to death.....

I was going through the EXIF data of my photographs and exported to focal lengths used to a spreadsheet. In 35mm terms I found (stumped by that) that the distribution of photographs is far from uniform: I basically found a peak around 24mm, one around 50mm and a peak, but lower, around 90mm. The three peaks pretty much summed up to 80% of all shots taken.

Do you have similar experience?

Before having a digital SLR I had no film SLR, I started my hobby about 10, 12 years ago on mediumformat 6x6 with 50/80/150mm and 4x5"with 90/150/210 so I was used to fixed focal lengths. Probably that shows now also how I use the zoomlens??

My DSLR has an APS sized sensor and the zoomlens is also not "full-frame" capable....this year I want to upgrade to a higher rez full frame DSLR camera, thus I also need to buy a new lens......i'm doubting: again a zoom lens although I use its zoom capability only limited but it has obviously convenience or go for 3 primes and trade the convenience for a tad more optical performance?

I'm to be considered as a "landscape shooter" and tend to print around 16x20, currently 17" printer but expect to buy a 24" one in a few years when the 17" either is broken, worn out or just no longer up to scratch for my wants (to avoid the word "needs").

I'm used to manual focus.....i appreciate the Zeiss lenses of my medium format kit and the Schneiders of the LF.....now would there be any real-world improvement e.q. if I instead of a 50mm Nikon/Canon would buy the Zeiss one's?? Would it show in a 16x20 or 20x24" print? And how?

I'm spoiled by the detail of a wet darkroom print on 20x24 from a 4x5" negative.  For several reasons I stopped working in the wetdarkroom and bought a scanner and printer to work hybrid: 6x6 and 4x5 film and scan and print. I bougt the DSLR for fun. But I was pleasently surprised by the 12mpx Digital compared to scanned 2400dpi MF negatives when I started to print the DSLR files. Actually that DSLR turned my 6x6 and 4x5 into paperweights...ouch...too.

Any thouhgts, idea's, suggestions after reading this?
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Huib

telyt

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 08:01:03 am »

Quote from: hsmeets
I was going through the EXIF data of my photographs and exported to focal lengths used to a spreadsheet. In 35mm terms I found (stumped by that) that the distribution of photographs is far from uniform: I basically found a peak around 24mm, one around 50mm and a peak, but lower, around 90mm. The three peaks pretty much summed up to 80% of all shots taken.

If I saw the same distribution of focal lengths in my EXIF data I'd have to ask myself how important the other 20% of the photos are to me.

I've learned that I'm not a 'zoom' person.  The vast majority of my photos are made with two prime lenses and I'm considering replacing one lens with an extender on the other.
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Jeremy Payne

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 08:18:15 am »

Quote from: hsmeets
I basically found a peak around 24mm, one around 50mm and a peak, but lower, around 90mm. The three peaks pretty much summed up to 80% of all shots taken.

Do you have similar experience?

Here's my breakdown ... for the last 3 years ...

50% were shot with the 70-200mm
22% were shot with a 50mm
20% were shot with a 17-35mm
8% were shot with the 24-120mm

So 1/2 are longer than 70mm.  

Within the 70-200mm range, there is a good distribution that actually goes all the way up to 340 because I use a 1.7 TC sometimes.

Within the 17-35mm shots, there are some at 17, lots at 20, lots at 24, some at 28, some at 30 and a whole bunch at 35.
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David Saffir

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 02:34:18 pm »

in most cases in 35mm, the primes are sharper than the zooms. One exception is the 28-70 zoom offered by both canon and nikon.

However, for best image quality, primes are king. Flatter, sharper, better contrast and color.

David

PS - just purchased the new Nikon 60mm w/ Nano coating. Very, very good.
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feppe

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 02:52:26 pm »

Did the same analysis on my photos, sold my (crappy) 28-105mm L and am fully primed now at 14mm, 85mm and 135mm. Thinking of getting a 35mm and/or 50mm, but not going back to zooms due to poor IQ.

ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 03:10:41 pm »

Hi,

Personally I use mostly zooms (a 24-70/2,8 and a 70-300/4.0-5.6 or an 80-200/2.8). In my experience I don't see any real benefit in using the fixed focals 50/1.4 and 100/2.8 Macro I also have.

On the other hand the zooms I have are quite OK, although I have seen a few possible issues on the 70-300, so I go back to the 80-200/2.8 for a while. My tendency is that I use most focal lengths. Having zooms I don't switch lenses that often and that reduces the dust on the sensor.

Regarding DSLRs vs. my Pentax 67 I have the experience that the Pentax essentially is a paperweight, that said I made stunning prints in 70x100 cm from it, something I have not yet tried with my DSLR, except once. The 24 MP Sony Alpha I have now seems quite capable.

If you are interested in Zeiss lenses you may consider subscribing to the Zeiss pages on Lloyd Chambers's website,

http://www.diglloyd.com

"Diglloyd" sees clear benefits with the Zeiss lenses, but once you stop down most lenses will be pretty similar.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: hsmeets
Hi,

Don't flame me if this topic has already been beaten to death.....

I was going through the EXIF data of my photographs and exported to focal lengths used to a spreadsheet. In 35mm terms I found (stumped by that) that the distribution of photographs is far from uniform: I basically found a peak around 24mm, one around 50mm and a peak, but lower, around 90mm. The three peaks pretty much summed up to 80% of all shots taken.

Do you have similar experience?

Before having a digital SLR I had no film SLR, I started my hobby about 10, 12 years ago on mediumformat 6x6 with 50/80/150mm and 4x5"with 90/150/210 so I was used to fixed focal lengths. Probably that shows now also how I use the zoomlens??

My DSLR has an APS sized sensor and the zoomlens is also not "full-frame" capable....this year I want to upgrade to a higher rez full frame DSLR camera, thus I also need to buy a new lens......i'm doubting: again a zoom lens although I use its zoom capability only limited but it has obviously convenience or go for 3 primes and trade the convenience for a tad more optical performance?

I'm to be considered as a "landscape shooter" and tend to print around 16x20, currently 17" printer but expect to buy a 24" one in a few years when the 17" either is broken, worn out or just no longer up to scratch for my wants (to avoid the word "needs").

I'm used to manual focus.....i appreciate the Zeiss lenses of my medium format kit and the Schneiders of the LF.....now would there be any real-world improvement e.q. if I instead of a 50mm Nikon/Canon would buy the Zeiss one's?? Would it show in a 16x20 or 20x24" print? And how?

I'm spoiled by the detail of a wet darkroom print on 20x24 from a 4x5" negative.  For several reasons I stopped working in the wetdarkroom and bought a scanner and printer to work hybrid: 6x6 and 4x5 film and scan and print. I bougt the DSLR for fun. But I was pleasently surprised by the 12mpx Digital compared to scanned 2400dpi MF negatives when I started to print the DSLR files. Actually that DSLR turned my 6x6 and 4x5 into paperweights...ouch...too.

Any thouhgts, idea's, suggestions after reading this?
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hsmeets

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2010, 03:15:31 pm »

To add to my opening post:

Thinking back at using the zoom: I often find myself taking a static view point and trying to zoom into a composition. That is completely different to when I was shooting with the medium format camera and I had to move around to find the optimal composition for that lens, as a matter of fact I often discovered, by moving around myself, much better viewpoints/composition all together.

Looking at my portfolio: the better stuff (composition/content wise) is from when I moved my lazy b*tt around to get the shot.

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Rob C

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2010, 03:33:43 pm »

Quote from: hsmeets
To add to my opening post:

Thinking back at using the zoom: I often find myself taking a static view point and trying to zoom into a composition. That is completely different to when I was shooting with the medium format camera and I had to move around to find the optimal composition for that lens, as a matter of fact I often discovered, by moving around myself, much better viewpoints/composition all together.

Looking at my portfolio: the better stuff (composition/content wise) is from when I moved my lazy b*tt around to get the shot.






I think you have answered your own question: stick with primes.

Regarding Nikon's 1.8/50 - I have the non-af version and it is fantastic. I thought the same about the 2/50 when I was using film. The 2.8/24mm non-af is also very good on film and I have found it pretty useful with FF digital sensors too. I have hardly any of my Hass transparencies left now (don't ask - death wish stuff) and certainly not enough to bother with buying a 120 scanner. I used the same 50, 80 and 150 range you do and I printed with a Durst and Componon lenses; I would love to see how my 120 transparencies would have fared when scanned and then printed digitally, but, alas, that will never happen now.

Regarding zooms - I think people fall into two basic camps: those who like them and those who hate them. I tried once and got burned - never again, thanks.

Rob C

hsmeets

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2010, 03:48:52 pm »

Quote from: Rob C
I think you have answered your own question: stick with primes.

Regarding Nikon's 1.8/50 - I have the non-af version and it is fantastic. I thought the same about the 2/50 when I was using film. The 2.8/24mm non-af is also very good on film and I have found it pretty useful with FF digital sensors too. I have hardly any of my Hass transparencies left now (don't ask - death wish stuff) and certainly not enough to bother with buying a 120 scanner. I used the same 50, 80 and 150 range you do and I printed with a Durst and Componon lenses; I would love to see how my 120 transparencies would have fared when scanned and then printed digitally, but, alas, that will never happen now.

Regarding zooms - I think people fall into two basic camps: those who like them and those who hate them. I tried once and got burned - never again, thanks.

Rob C

Yes, I guess that having limited choice is what makes me tick :-)

So doctor, now that I'm lying here on the couch, analyze this:

Although I had no trouble to go out shooting with a attention magnet as a 4x5 camera then why do I hate to go out with a fat zoom on a SLR???

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Huib

DarkPenguin

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2010, 03:50:18 pm »

Quote from: Rob C
I think you have answered your own question: stick with primes.

Regarding Nikon's 1.8/50 - I have the non-af version and it is fantastic. I thought the same about the 2/50 when I was using film. The 2.8/24mm non-af is also very good on film and I have found it pretty useful with FF digital sensors too. I have hardly any of my Hass transparencies left now (don't ask - death wish stuff) and certainly not enough to bother with buying a 120 scanner. I used the same 50, 80 and 150 range you do and I printed with a Durst and Componon lenses; I would love to see how my 120 transparencies would have fared when scanned and then printed digitally, but, alas, that will never happen now.

Regarding zooms - I think people fall into two basic camps: those who like them and those who hate them. I tried once and got burned - never again, thanks.

Rob C

The problem with zooms is that it is hard to really learn an infinite range of focal lengths.  I like zooms but I tend to use them like they have click stops at certain focal lengths that I know well.
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ErikKaffehr

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 04:21:50 pm »

Hi,

It' often not just a question of moving. Vantage point often cannot be chosen freely. Limitation can be geography, obstructions, perspective. I find myself quite often adjusting he camera a few centimeters  just to get everything "right". Moving around changes the perspective. With more variation of focal lengths there will be more options.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: hsmeets
To add to my opening post:

Thinking back at using the zoom: I often find myself taking a static view point and trying to zoom into a composition. That is completely different to when I was shooting with the medium format camera and I had to move around to find the optimal composition for that lens, as a matter of fact I often discovered, by moving around myself, much better viewpoints/composition all together.

Looking at my portfolio: the better stuff (composition/content wise) is from when I moved my lazy b*tt around to get the shot.
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PeterAit

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 04:50:04 pm »

Quote from: hsmeets
Hi,

Don't flame me if this topic has already been beaten to death.....

I was going through the EXIF data of my photographs and exported to focal lengths used to a spreadsheet. In 35mm terms I found (stumped by that) that the distribution of photographs is far from uniform: I basically found a peak around 24mm, one around 50mm and a peak, but lower, around 90mm. The three peaks pretty much summed up to 80% of all shots taken.

Do you have similar experience?

Before having a digital SLR I had no film SLR, I started my hobby about 10, 12 years ago on mediumformat 6x6 with 50/80/150mm and 4x5"with 90/150/210 so I was used to fixed focal lengths. Probably that shows now also how I use the zoomlens??

My DSLR has an APS sized sensor and the zoomlens is also not "full-frame" capable....this year I want to upgrade to a higher rez full frame DSLR camera, thus I also need to buy a new lens......i'm doubting: again a zoom lens although I use its zoom capability only limited but it has obviously convenience or go for 3 primes and trade the convenience for a tad more optical performance?

I'm to be considered as a "landscape shooter" and tend to print around 16x20, currently 17" printer but expect to buy a 24" one in a few years when the 17" either is broken, worn out or just no longer up to scratch for my wants (to avoid the word "needs").

I'm used to manual focus.....i appreciate the Zeiss lenses of my medium format kit and the Schneiders of the LF.....now would there be any real-world improvement e.q. if I instead of a 50mm Nikon/Canon would buy the Zeiss one's?? Would it show in a 16x20 or 20x24" print? And how?

I'm spoiled by the detail of a wet darkroom print on 20x24 from a 4x5" negative.  For several reasons I stopped working in the wetdarkroom and bought a scanner and printer to work hybrid: 6x6 and 4x5 film and scan and print. I bougt the DSLR for fun. But I was pleasently surprised by the 12mpx Digital compared to scanned 2400dpi MF negatives when I started to print the DSLR files. Actually that DSLR turned my 6x6 and 4x5 into paperweights...ouch...too.

Any thouhgts, idea's, suggestions after reading this?

Having 3 primes would not let you take those 20% of shots that are not at or near 24, 50, or 90mm. You would have more weight to carry around and might miss shots when changing a lens.
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hsmeets

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 05:42:49 pm »

Quote from: PeterAit
Having 3 primes would not let you take those 20% of shots that are not at or near 24, 50, or 90mm. You would have more weight to carry around and might miss shots when changing a lens.

Probably just because of what I shoot and how i'm not so concerned about missing a shot or so, no worries here :-) it's all quite static stuff, with the 4x5" kit i learned to be patient as (as an example) I had to wait for the sky to clear up.








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stever

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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 06:43:48 pm »

it's not just which focal lengths use, but the subjects and circumstances of use.  there can be time and physical constraints that make lens changing impractical and a zoom lens is the alternative to losing 2/3 of the shots

otherwise, 3 good primes are a better choice for image quality - and probably don't weigh much more than one "good" zoom.  

until the latest generation of 20+ mp cameras you could argue that the best zooms were comparable in resolution to the camera (at least in the center of the image) if you could accept the distortion and CA - that is no longer true and it will take a surprising leap in technology for zooms to catch up
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NashvilleMike

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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 08:07:13 pm »

Quote from: hsmeets
Hi,

Don't flame me if this topic has already been beaten to death.....

I was going through the EXIF data of my photographs and exported to focal lengths used to a spreadsheet. In 35mm terms I found (stumped by that) that the distribution of photographs is far from uniform: I basically found a peak around 24mm, one around 50mm and a peak, but lower, around 90mm. The three peaks pretty much summed up to 80% of all shots taken.

Do you have similar experience?

That's it man, I'm warming up the blow torch now, gonna let you have it....
Okay, just kidding.

Primes vs Zooms of course is one of those classic "arguments" or discussions with strong proponents on both sides of the house. I tend to be a centrist on the matter and look at it more practically so I have both and love both. I'm actually in a somewhat similar situation as you are: I'm currently a low ISO DX body shooter (Nikon D2X, D300) who shoots studio and landscape, with intentions to go FF once a more affordable higher resolution Nikon option becomes available as I don't shoot much for $$$ these days and thus can't really justify a D3X at the moment.  I have a deep investment in Nikon glass and prefer Nikon glass over both Canon and Sony so I'm not switching just because somebody has a body I might like this year and Nikon doesn't.

Like you, I also have a chemical darkroom background as well as a large format/medium format background although I always gravitated to the 35mm format for portability and for ease of use in fast moving situations. Since I shoot people, often moving, in a studio space, the DSLR "form factor" fits my personality the best even though it's obvious that a 40 grand Phase camera/back would give more "ultimate" image quality.  I also print mostly 16x20" - that's actually my most common size. Where we differ is since I do studio shooting where AF is required given my personal style and preference for fast moving sessions, I don't really see, at this point in my own personal plan, that a large investment in manual focus lenses make sense. Perhaps over time as I likely gravitate towards a higher percentage of my work being landscape that might be the case, but at this point in time, my approach has been to focus on slowly building a lens collection that offers as good as I can get in the focal length ranges I use, that are AF. This of course eliminates the Zeiss lenses since they are MF, which are quite nice, but really only the 100/2 Makro Planar interests me and it still may be the one Zeiss that I get even though it's MF, since it is so bloody good an optic.

I made this choice of concentrating on the lenses first because it became evident that the camera bodies would come and go across the years while excellent glass would (or perhaps better stated, could) remain a constant. In the Nikon line, through various tests, I've discovered that a lot of times the best image quality option happens to be a zoom, and sometimes it happens to be a prime - so instead of getting into a holy war and picking one side, I have chosen what I feel, after my own careful, extensive, and exhaustive evaluation, the lenses that work the best for me, and I've always got my eye out for the new ones being released that may replace my "weakest" links in the current collection. So given I have fairly high standards for the image quality of the lens along with the requirement of it being AF, and frankly, a secondary "like" for a zoom since it allows for quick framing changes when shooting in the studio, I've ended up with a mixed kit of the 14-24/2.8, 24-70/2.8, 60/2.8G AFS, 70-200/2.8G AFS VR2, and 200/2G AFS lenses as my core kit - these are all lenses that to me represent the best I can get in AF lenses in most any mount and in the two zooms at the "edges" (the 14-24 and the new VR2 70-200), they actually have tested better than the primes I've had that they've now replaced. I've also got the 85/1.4 AF-D and 105/2 DC (and a couple of 50's) and the two portrait lenses are quite nice for work with people, but there are potentially better options for landscape work, including the new 70-200 VR2 which shocked me in recent tests I've done by actually being sharper with better contrast in many cases than either the 85 or 105 I own. So much for the zooms aren't as good as primes argument - at least in Nikons current lineup, they've put more emphasis on extremely high performing zooms that easily meet and often exceed a lot of Nikons "classic" primes from 10 years ago. This isn't saying that zooms are better, it's obviously more of an indication that lens design and lens design capabilities have grown tremendously over the past years and thus a newly designed pro zoom, at least on the Nikon side of the house, is extremely competitive with most any current prime. Of course once Nikon starts updating their prime lineup this may change, but even then, I'm seeing that the new zooms are tremendously sharp, particularly at the apertures a studio or landscape shooter often use.

As far as how much you'll see the differences in lenses, this is all of course determined by the quality of your support system (I own the heavy 5530S Gitzo for a reason), the quality of your shot discipline, and the quality of your raw conversion and post processing as well as your own personal level of discernment and what you (not me, or another forum member) feel is most important when you look at image quality. In the latter case, since my own personal reference is the smooth tonality and natural (not forced, but natural) resolution and sharpness of a large format chrome on a lightbox or a very well done print from an 8x10, I happen to value resolution, contrast, and the overall rendering of the lens instead of just concentrating on how sharp the lens is. Some folks are most sharpness obsessed, some folks are really into the bokeh characteristics and on it goes - I'm not sure anyone here can make that decision for you. But getting back on topic, if you've got well trained eyes, know what to look for, have mastery in your technique and shoot with good discipline on a solid support, yes, you'll see the differences at 16x20", easy. Will these differences turn a shot with poor artistry into something great - of course not, but it can make the difference between what I call "gallery quality" and just a good medium size print. My goal always has been to produce a 16x20 print that looks like it came from one size larger a format than what it was shot on, and if I'm good and the gear is good, I can often get there. You may have other ideas.

That being said, if you are good with manual focus, value sharpness and resolution as extremely important aspects, you might do very well with a simple three prime outfit of a 24, 50, 100 or whatever, maybe all or parts of it from Zeiss. If I were going all prime on Nikon myself, I'd likely get the new 24/1.4 that was announced, a 35/2 Zeiss, the 60/2.8G Nikkor, the 100/2 Zeiss, and the 200/2 Nikkor and I could cover most of what I would do - I just happen to like zoom flexibility in the studio and hence I went with my current kit. At the end of the day though, everybodies preference is different and it may very well be different on the Canon side of the house where the pro zooms at this point in time aren't anywhere as good as Nikons, but whose L-II lens primes are extremely nice. If I was a Canon shooter, I'd be tempted by their 17 T/S, their 24/1.4, their 100 Macro and 200/2 exotic, with perhaps the Zeiss 50/2 Makro Planar filling in the middle.

-m

PS: This post is already terribly long winded, but as I gaze into my crystal ball, I see the quality of every manufacturers lens lines converging: the point being that the higher megapixel FF options require a lot of sharp glass, and thus I see sharpness as being a design point. We have seen this so far in the new Nikon zooms - all are very, very sharp, to the point where one really can't go THAT much sharper. We're seeing it from Canon in their L-II primes and the 17 TS - really nice lenses. Sony/Zeiss has some really nice lenses. I'm almost worried that as everyone "chases" sharpness in order to appease the pixel peeping culture these days that some of the character and rendering styles that used to define some lenses gets lost in translation. At least on Nikons side I have heard that the new 24/1.4 was designed with bokeh and imaging qualities wide open as being a very important parameter, which may mean that on a test chart it may not be edge to edge sharp at 1.4 but perhaps instead have a very beautiful rendering when shot wide open due to the more artistic (versus purely engineering based) thought as to the trade offs that occur in all lens designs. We shall see.
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hsmeets

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To zoom or not?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 05:10:47 am »

Thanks for the response/feedback.

Its still hard for me to decide: primes or zoom, a bit more IQ over convenience (weight, dust, etc) but foremost I think working with fixed focal lengths is more how I "grew-up" and are used to photograph. And why change that if that works for me.

My game plan for the moment is to buy a new body with primes sometime this year and keep the current one + zoom around for some time and take it from there what I will do with the aps body and zoom.
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To zoom or not?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2010, 01:30:52 pm »

I've gone the prime route for the majority of my landscape shooting. The reason for this is that the PC lenses give me capabilities you just can't get from a zoom.  So the 24/45/85 are what I use most often. Rather than carrying big, redundant pro zooms to fill in the gaps between those lenses, I've added the Zeiss 35/2 and 100/2. So those 5 lenses are my main landscape kit. I also occasionally bring along the 14-24 and 70-300vr when I won't be straying too far from the car, but they're the first lenses to get left behind when weight is a concern. Once the new 16-35/4 comes it, it will probably replace the 14-24 as my super-wide option (assuming image quality doesn't disappoint).

I agree with NashvilleMike that the "classic" Nikkor primes have nothing to offer the latest pro zooms, especially for DX shooting. The zooms are really excellent. I do think the PC lenses and some of the Zeiss primes still have an advantage in the corners if you're shooting full frame (especially the Zeiss 100/2, nothing else is in the same league).
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