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Author Topic: M mode, no metering  (Read 5903 times)

teddillard

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M mode, no metering
« on: February 01, 2010, 06:45:36 am »

I've recently taken about 4 steps backwards in technology- I'm using my great old Nikkor lenses on my D5000.  I get no metering, the only way the camera will even let me shoot is in M mode.  I've just been shooting a few test shots, reading the histogram, adjusting, and shooting away.  

I love it.  It's like I'm taking pictures again...  I'm thinking about exposure, I love shooting with primes, it even seems I'm shooting faster and easier, not trying to outguess the AE system.

I spent 20 or so years shooting commercial work with meters and Polaroids to check exposure, and it seems like when I left that all behind, I just assumed that the way to work was in one form or another of Auto Exposure- it never occurred to me to just ignore the metering and auto modes altogether, and use the histogram.  I mean, I AM a devotee of the histogram, and usually adjust it with the EV control...  

In a discussion on another group, I'm finding out that lots and lots of people shoot this way, and I'm putting together a blog post about it.  I wanted to float the idea out here.  Anybody shooting with uncoupled lenses?  Does your camera meter at all with them?  Are you shooting in M mode frequently?  What kind of work are you shooting this way?  

These are the things I think about...  
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Ted Dillard

stamper

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 06:56:54 am »

Does your camera have auto iso? Add that to the equation and when you are centering the indicator look also at the iso reading. It allows you to pick exposure and shutter readings that are out of sync. Such as if you choose f/11 and the camera wants 400th of a second to balance out the indicator then you can choose 800th of a second and the iso kicks in. Beware in good light you may get overexposure because the camera hits the base iso. You are in fact juggling three settings instead of two.

dwdallam

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 07:11:37 am »

Sure. I do it all the time, and I use a meter too.

Be careful that you take a picture filling the entire view screen of your subject to get your exposure correct, or you could get gross under and over exposure. For instance, if you're shooting a backlit or white/black background, the histogram will look WAY over/under exposed, when it may be dead on.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 07:20:45 am by dwdallam »
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JBerardi

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 05:38:32 pm »

Quote from: teddillard
In a discussion on another group, I'm finding out that lots and lots of people shoot this way, and I'm putting together a blog post about it.  I wanted to float the idea out here.  Anybody shooting with uncoupled lenses?  Does your camera meter at all with them?  Are you shooting in M mode frequently?  What kind of work are you shooting this way?

I'm also doing this with a Nikon body. I don't use uncoupled lenses much, but I do completely ignore my meter in favor of my (uniWB) histogram for the majority of my shooting. If nothing is moving too fast, it's easier to just manually nail down an exposure for a specific scene using the histogram, and then not have to worry about the camera changing it's mind on the exposure. If the optimal exposure is 5.6 at 1/160 when I'm shooting horizontal, it's still going to be 5.6 at 1/160 when I go vertical, or change the composition slightly. The camera meter will also return different results when I change the active AF point (this definitely makes a difference on Nikon bodies, I don't know about others), even if the scene remains exactly the same. Here's a recent example:

[attachment=19922:glass.jpg]

Move an AF point when composing this image and the meter reading could change significantly. Oh yeah, and then there's pano shooting...

I think the metering system on my camera is pretty great, actually, but it's clearly not tuned for static subjects. It shouldn't be, either, but I do wish digital cameras included better tools for achieving optimal exposures in landscape/still life/architecture/etc type situations. Mainly just a dead-accurate histogram that doesn't require ridiculous kludge to achieve.
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stamper

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 02:35:57 am »

When you nail the exposure do an exposure lock via the exposure lock button, assuming that you have the button set up for that. Then it doesn't matter which focus point you use.

teddillard

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2010, 07:16:47 am »

great stuff, thanks!  

One of the things I realize I run into is simply getting baffled trying to figure out exactly what the meter is doing and how it's reading.  I've always used a spot meter, I guess I'm kind of stuck in that mentality.  Shooting with a Leica M2R (military issue of M3) I loved the fact you could push the 135mm lens frame in the viewfinder and get the meter read area...  it'd be cool if a DSLR gave you that in Spot mode.  (Does any camera do that?  Again, for all the cameras we test, this is never stuff I've looked at.)

...'course, it'd be nice if I used the same camera more than a month or two.  

Good point on the histogram...  I've always argued that the histogram is the single most powerful tool in digital photography, reaching back to my Zone System roots- simply because it tells you exactly what you have, no estimates, no corrections.  That is, IF you have the camera settings set to your preferences.  I'd argue that's the single most important aspect of using the histogram- set the contrast, saturation, color space to your preferences in the camera, since that determines how the JPEG preview will be processed, and how the histogram will display...  

All this has brought back memories of my college days shooting weddings...  and I used to do the same thing.  Take a couple meter readings around the room, set the exposure, and adjust it without reading again (usually just bumping it up or down a stop) without metering again, just so I could shoot fast...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 07:18:32 am by teddillard »
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Jonathan Wienke

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2010, 08:16:48 am »

I use the camera meter to get exposure in the ballpark, and then fine-tune with the histogram.
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peter.s.

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2010, 09:12:50 pm »

I shoot without metering and I also use Nikon.

In a new lighting situation I guesstimate the EV and then quickly transform that into the iso, aperture and shutter speed combination I want. After a test shot I adjust guided by the histogram. Sometimes no adjustments is need and sometimes my guess is a little off, usually on the side of under exposure for some reason.

On the back of my cameras I have a piece of tape under the histogram where I marked where middle gray, +1EV, +2EV +3EV, -1EV, -2EV and -3EV falls. In the menu I disable any auto tone/contrast features that would shift the histogram and I set contrast to low as well. Since I can see exactly where I am adjustments after the initial test shot is pretty fast.

As the light changes I adjust for shade, backlit, near windows etc.

With flash I do the same by starting with the ambient exposure then I guesstimate flash power and dial the power and zoom in manually on the flash. After a test shot I then adjust the flash power accordingly if needed.

As distances change I change flash power accordingly. When possible I bounce which actually makes this easier as flash power and distance from the camera to the subject doesn't change according to the inverse square law any more.

I shoot weddings and portraiture. When setting up strobes or flashes I use a flash meter if I have one with me. On occasion I use the in-camera spot meter to meter ambient. When using B&W film (only private stuff) I just guesstimate EV and shoot.

Good luck with your blog post!
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teddillard

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 08:07:48 am »

Quote from: peter.s.
On the back of my cameras I have a piece of tape under the histogram where I marked where middle gray, +1EV, +2EV +3EV, -1EV, -2EV and -3EV falls. In the menu I disable any auto tone/contrast features that would shift the histogram and I set contrast to low as well. Since I can see exactly where I am adjustments after the initial test shot is pretty fast.

Good luck with your blog post!

Thanks!  I need it.  Every comment sends me down another rabbit hole...    

...this comment, for example.  When I was putting together Black and White Pipeliine I was trying to figure out how to, once and for all, explain the histogram and what it means.  I came up with the HistoStepWedge illustration...  



EDIT:  

found it!

« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 08:18:46 am by teddillard »
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peter.s.

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 09:07:05 am »

Hi Ted,

Below is the "histogram tape" I use.

I made it by shooting a gray card which puts a spike in the histogram. Then in manual just change the exposure and mark the center of the spike for each over/underexposure.

As you can see the histogram isn't linear compared to the scene because the camera applies thing like gamma correction and a tone curve to the jpeg. Color space also makes a small difference. If anything that changes the tones automatically like active d-lighting or automatic tone control is enabled it would also screw around with the histogram.

So your step wedge may be a little misdirecting since it's not "calibrated" to your cameras behavior.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 09:12:13 am by peter.s. »
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teddillard

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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 10:30:43 am »

Quote from: peter.s.
Hi Ted,

Below is the "histogram tape" I use.

I made it by shooting a gray card which puts a spike in the histogram. Then in manual just change the exposure and mark the center of the spike for each over/underexposure.

As you can see the histogram isn't linear compared to the scene because the camera applies thing like gamma correction and a tone curve to the jpeg. Color space also makes a small difference. If anything that changes the tones automatically like active d-lighting or automatic tone control is enabled it would also screw around with the histogram.

So your step wedge may be a little misdirecting since it's not "calibrated" to your cameras behavior.

Uh, not sure what you mean...  as far as my experience goes, if you have your contrast, saturation and color space settings synced with your settings in Camera RAW the histo matches almost exactly.  At least that's my experience...  

That sticker is a GREAT idea...  especially to put it on the screen protector.  May I post that image on my blog?  Full credit, of course...  PM me if you'd like.
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Ted Dillard

peter.s.

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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 08:03:14 pm »

Quote from: teddillard
Uh, not sure what you mean...  as far as my experience goes, if you have your contrast, saturation and color space settings synced with your settings in Camera RAW the histo matches almost exactly.  At least that's my experience...

Hmm, tricky one to explain. I agree what you are saying but I'm not talking about that.

Take a look at this plot from dpreview:



An equal change in exposure (X-axis) will not give a proportional increase in the RGB values (Y-axis).

That's what I mean by saying the histogram is not linear to the scene.

I found that many people believe that middle gray is in the center of the histogram (RGB=128) and that the histogram is equally divided into 4 or 5 stops. But none of that is true.

The s-shape of the curve that the camera applies means that the tones in the highlights and shadows will be compressed. If you change the contrast setting in the camera the curve will look different.

I have chosen to set my cameras to low contrast to make the curve more linear in the midtones and highlights (something like the "ACR auto" or "ACR best" curve above). It makes the jpegs look flat and a little dark but I can better judge highlights, midtones and shadows in the histogram. My philosophy on this is that I'm trying to optimize my capture of information in the raw file and to a degree that means I will not have a good resemblance to the jpeg and histogram in the camera compared to the processed raw file.


Quote from: teddillard
That sticker is a GREAT idea...  especially to put it on the screen protector.  May I post that image on my blog?  Full credit, of course...  PM me if you'd like.

Sure, use it no problem. Or make you own as I scribbled on the image :-)

Best,
Peter
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 08:27:45 pm by peter.s. »
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teddillard

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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2010, 08:52:29 am »

Quote from: peter.s.
Hmm, tricky one to explain. I agree what you are saying but I'm not talking about that.

Take a look at this plot from dpreview:

An equal change in exposure (X-axis) will not give a proportional increase in the RGB values (Y-axis).

That's what I mean by saying the histogram is not linear to the scene.

I found that many people believe that middle gray is in the center of the histogram (RGB=128) and that the histogram is equally divided into 4 or 5 stops. But none of that is true.

The s-shape of the curve that the camera applies means that the tones in the highlights and shadows will be compressed. If you change the contrast setting in the camera the curve will look different.

I have chosen to set my cameras to low contrast to make the curve more linear in the midtones and highlights (something like the "ACR auto" or "ACR best" curve above). It makes the jpegs look flat and a little dark but I can better judge highlights, midtones and shadows in the histogram. My philosophy on this is that I'm trying to optimize my capture of information in the raw file and to a degree that means I will not have a good resemblance to the jpeg and histogram in the camera compared to the processed raw file.




Sure, use it no problem. Or make you own as I scribbled on the image :-)

Best,
Peter

Right, right...  got it.  Thanks for that clarification.  I'm basically trying to explain the histogram and how to use it at a very basic level.  (I still get the question, what shape should the histogram be?) so I think I'll keep it to a simple grayscale.


Thanks, I'd love to use yours, it's great (and original...   )  Just tell me where to send the check...  heh.

If I can see daylight today I should be able to get the blog post up...  best laid plans and all.  This has been great, thanks to all for the contribution!

Ted
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 08:56:04 am by teddillard »
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Ted Dillard

teddillard

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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2010, 10:54:16 am »

OK guys- got it up, also discovered a killer Weston Ranger 9 site in the bargain...  thanks for the help, hope you enjoy it.

http://www.h2hreviews.com/blog/Shooting-on...hotography.html

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James Godman

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2010, 03:15:38 pm »

Yep, shoot that way all the time, manual mode with various old lenses etc...  Thanks!
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telyt

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2010, 05:57:52 pm »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
I use the camera meter to get exposure in the ballpark, and then fine-tune with the histogram.


Same for me.  Never AE, ever.  No AF either.
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Jonathan Ratzlaff

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M mode, no metering
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 12:22:06 am »

I use a tamron macro lens with my D90.  Like Ted, no metering,  Use the expose to the right rule or slide film rule.  Expose for the highlights.  Sunny 16 rule gets you close, the only time it is frustrating is when the light changes rapidly.  For those who have been using manual exposure for a long time, it isn't a problem because your feedback is pretty well instantaneous.
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