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Author Topic: Still need help selecting a MF camera  (Read 3923 times)

kuau

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Still need help selecting a MF camera
« on: January 31, 2010, 12:30:00 am »

I have made a few posts in this group and have really appreciated everyones response.
I guess before I actually go out and buy something I need to clarify a few things.

1. Do I need a MF solution with Tilt? I for sure want shift.
The reason I ask is because I am coming from a DSLR solution with PC-E lens and a D3x, where i need to be at f5.6 to F11 shooting at f16, F22 is not recommended because of diffraction so I usually shoot at F5.6 and use tilt to bring into focus the foreground.
Yet on MF shooting  with a 35mm, 47mm, and 80mm would I be able to shoot at f16-F22 and not have to worry about diffraction so using hyperfocal focus I can pull in the foreground??
Or.. do I still need some tilt?

Only shooting landscape no tabletop stuff.

Thanks everyone.

Steven
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Brian Ripley

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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 02:50:19 am »

Quote from: kuau
I have made a few posts in this group and have really appreciated everyones response.
I guess before I actually go out and buy something I need to clarify a few things.

1. Do I need a MF solution with Tilt? I for sure want shift.
The reason I ask is because I am coming from a DSLR solution with PC-E lens and a D3x, where i need to be at f5.6 to F11 shooting at f16, F22 is not recommended because of diffraction so I usually shoot at F5.6 and use tilt to bring into focus the foreground.
Yet on MF shooting  with a 35mm, 47mm, and 80mm would I be able to shoot at f16-F22 and not have to worry about diffraction so using hyperfocal focus I can pull in the foreground??
Or.. do I still need some tilt?

Only shooting landscape no tabletop stuff.

Thanks everyone.

Steven

You forget two things.

1) MF sensors are only slighlty bigger than 35mm ones.  So if you think you need to avoid f/16 and f/22 (and I would recheck your calculations as differaction is only just coming into play) then you need to avoid f/22 on MF.

2) Depth of field varies by format at f/22, to a good approximation depending on the physical size of the aperture (just as diffraction does).  So you would need to shoot at f/32 on MF to get about the same DoF as at f/22 on MF, and will then get the same amount of diffraction as on 35mm.

So the short answer is that if you need tilt on 35mm you need it also on any other format.  But I would dispute that you need it for DoF iin landscape photography more than occasionally.  I'd say that I do so about once a year.  The only one I can recall that is on my website is
http://portal.stats.ox.ac.uk/userdata/ripl...5/d29v2413.html , shot with tilt at f/11 and with pretty extreme foreground.

Caveats: some of the calculations are different in macro photography, and my assertions about f/stops are exact only for a sensor 1.4x bigger than 35mm -- but that is ballpark correct.  And if people shoot MF/LF for greater resolution (and for film that is often the case) then they may look at bigger prints more closely when the effects of diffraction and marginal out-of-focus become more critical -- a 5x4" photographer friend of mine talks about noseprints on prints returning from an exhibition!
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michele

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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 03:46:25 am »

You have a D3x... do you really need a mfdb? Wich back are you thinking to buy? Lenses from rodenstock and schneider, in the short lenght, suffer from diffraction if you close more then 11, so you need tilt. By the way, if you are going to but a p65+ test it before, using tilt, hyperfocal focus and using helicon focus... Be aware that with my p45+ and mamiya/phaseone lenses the hyperfocal distance at f/16 is in the infrared dot point...

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 07:30:14 am »

Quote from: kuau
I have made a few posts in this group and have really appreciated everyones response.
I guess before I actually go out and buy something I need to clarify a few things.

1. Do I need a MF solution with Tilt? I for sure want shift.
The reason I ask is because I am coming from a DSLR solution with PC-E lens and a D3x, where i need to be at f5.6 to F11 shooting at f16, F22 is not recommended because of diffraction so I usually shoot at F5.6 and use tilt to bring into focus the foreground.
Yet on MF shooting  with a 35mm, 47mm, and 80mm would I be able to shoot at f16-F22 and not have to worry about diffraction so using hyperfocal focus I can pull in the foreground??
Or.. do I still need some tilt?

Only shooting landscape no tabletop stuff.

Thanks everyone.

Steven
I believe that optimum sharpness with MF is at f8 to f11.

I expect to use tilt with most landscapes... any landscape with a foreground.
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Bill Lawrence

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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 09:19:33 am »

Quote from: kuau
I have made a few posts in this group and have really appreciated everyones response.
I guess before I actually go out and buy something I need to clarify a few things.

1. Do I need a MF solution with Tilt? I for sure want shift.
The reason I ask is because I am coming from a DSLR solution with PC-E lens and a D3x, where i need to be at f5.6 to F11 shooting at f16, F22 is not recommended because of diffraction so I usually shoot at F5.6 and use tilt to bring into focus the foreground.
Yet on MF shooting  with a 35mm, 47mm, and 80mm would I be able to shoot at f16-F22 and not have to worry about diffraction so using hyperfocal focus I can pull in the foreground??
Or.. do I still need some tilt?

Only shooting landscape no tabletop stuff.

Thanks everyone.

Steven

What camera systems are you looking at, and how much near-far composition are you likely to shoot? Even with a 4x5, much of what I shoot can be done by shooting at f22 and shooting hyperfocal, but I do a sufficient number of shots with close foreground elements I would miss not having tilt (even when shooting f16-22).  That being said, it is rare for me to find diffraction limiting print sizes up to 20x30 on a Canon 5D2 shot at f22.  If you're looking at an H system, then the HTS looks to be an attractive option (albeit pricey) which will give you both tilt and shift.  One advantage is that this system can be added to your system later, should you decide you need it - it uses the H system lenses up to 100mm IIRC (though at a cost of putting an effective 1.5 multiplier on the focal length).  Personally, I'm looking at the Arca Mtwo, since I have an addiction to ground glass and loupes.  The one down side of either of these is that there is no rear tilt other than by indirect movements.


Cheers!
Bill
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michael

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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 09:32:03 am »

I'll add a cautionary note about diffraction – don't get hung up on it.

What you'll likely find is that going one stop beyond the diffraction limit is often hardly visible in terms of reduced resolution, and going two stops isn't that big a deal, especially if the extra DOF that stopping down buys you helps the image that you're shooting.

Like everything else in photography it involves a series of trade-offs. Take care not to turn concern about diffraction into a fetish. Do some real world tests to satisfy yourself as to what works and what doesn't for your specific type of shooting.

Michael


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Terence h

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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 12:31:16 pm »

I know a fellow pro in South Africa that ditched his MFDB after getting his D3X and a few tilt shift lenses !

Terence
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kuau

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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 01:47:44 pm »

Quote from: Bill Lawrence
What camera systems are you looking at, and how much near-far composition are you likely to shoot? Even with a 4x5, much of what I shoot can be done by shooting at f22 and shooting hyperfocal, but I do a sufficient number of shots with close foreground elements I would miss not having tilt (even when shooting f16-22).  That being said, it is rare for me to find diffraction limiting print sizes up to 20x30 on a Canon 5D2 shot at f22.  If you're looking at an H system, then the HTS looks to be an attractive option (albeit pricey) which will give you both tilt and shift.  One advantage is that this system can be added to your system later, should you decide you need it - it uses the H system lenses up to 100mm IIRC (though at a cost of putting an effective 1.5 multiplier on the focal length).  Personally, I'm looking at the Arca Mtwo, since I have an addiction to ground glass and loupes.  The one down side of either of these is that there is no rear tilt other than by indirect movements.


Cheers!
Bill

I was thinking about getting a used silvestri bicam II with sliding back, bellows, 35mm an 72mm to start along with a leaf aptus 75
the only thing i am waiting to hear about is if you can rotate the dcam back to shoot vertical.
 
when i shoot my d3x i like to shoot vertical and use the 5x4 crop mode so i get like 20mp i think and like to print 20x30 on my hp z3200 printer

My whole MF question to me basically is setup time on my D3x VS MF, since I of course always use a tripod, remote release, live view with a hoodman loupe for focus then switch over to MLU to shoot, all this kind of reminds me of when I shot 4x5 years ago. So If I go through all of this I might as well get the best quality image.

I guess it comes down to how much better my 20x30 print will look if I go to MF

Steven
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pixjohn

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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 02:26:44 pm »

You will have to remove the back turn your hand and reconnect to switch from horizontal to vertical. With the Aptus 75 you will have to shoot a gain file with every shot to correct several issues, such as lens cast and centerline in the image.



Quote from: kuau
I was thinking about getting a used silvestri bicam II with sliding back, bellows, 35mm an 72mm to start along with a leaf aptus 75
the only thing i am waiting to hear about is if you can rotate the dcam back to shoot vertical.
 
when i shoot my d3x i like to shoot vertical and use the 5x4 crop mode so i get like 20mp i think and like to print 20x30 on my hp z3200 printer

My whole MF question to me basically is setup time on my D3x VS MF, since I of course always use a tripod, remote release, live view with a hoodman loupe for focus then switch over to MLU to shoot, all this kind of reminds me of when I shot 4x5 years ago. So If I go through all of this I might as well get the best quality image.

I guess it comes down to how much better my 20x30 print will look if I go to MF

Steven
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Ed Jack

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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2010, 12:08:22 pm »

Quote from: pixjohn
You will have to remove the back turn your hand and reconnect to switch from horizontal to vertical. With the Aptus 75 you will have to shoot a gain file with every shot to correct several issues, such as lens cast and centerline in the image.


One word:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...artblei45.shtml
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Lawrie_Hope

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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2010, 12:40:29 pm »

Quote from: Ed Jack
One word:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...artblei45.shtml

and the Hartblei Cam, www.hartblei.de

can have a variety of lensmounts and the full range of back mounts
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Lawrie Hope
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2010, 04:47:41 pm »

is there one for Hasselblad 500 series? [I mean tilt/shift]
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kuau

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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 12:23:54 am »

Quote from: Darius_Gelich
and the Hartblei Cam, www.hartblei.de

can have a variety of lensmounts and the full range of back mounts

Im confused with hartible. there are 2 websites, one in Ukraine and one in Germany,the german one having the zeiss lens and the Ukraine having something else.
Are they on any way related??

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Lawrie_Hope

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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2010, 03:58:10 am »

Quote from: Professional
is there one for Hasselblad 500 series? [I mean tilt/shift]


Currently there are the following lens mounts available:

Canon, Nikon, Sony-Minolta, Leica R, Pentax K, and Contax
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Lawrie Hope
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