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Author Topic: Thom Hogan: wishful thinking  (Read 6818 times)

Nemo

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« on: January 26, 2010, 08:43:29 am »

Thom Hogan's article presents the typical voluntarism or wishful thinking approach ("Leica has to find a way to implement my marvelous idea. They have engineers, isn't?") regarding viewfinder modification with superimposed images. But the truth is that it cannot be properly done!

It is like zooming viewfinders... it cannot be done with a fixed size rangefinder patch.

The viewfinder is all glass, with no air between the blocks of glass surfaces. How can you put a zooming viewfinder there?

Even external/accessory EVFs of high resolution aren't easily doable for Leica at this moment. Only Ricoh and Olympus were successful at this, and they presented their cameras a few weeks ago!

The black & white sensor idea is an old one. Leica did prospective surveys regarding this topic during the M8 years, but not substantial and real market exists for this. Michael Reichmann published, a few months ago, an article about a medium format back with B&W (no Bayer matrix) sensor (Phase One), and the theoretical advantages (resolution, dynamic range) were less than substantial in practical use. Do you think many people wants to bring a set of color filters for their lenses? The color and moiré problems of the M9 aren't so important.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...chromatic.shtml

Quote
I had planned to do some pixel peeping comparisons with a P45+ and a P65+. In fact I did them, setting up the shot on a heavy tripod firmly planted on concrete, 120mm Macro lens at optimum aperture, manual focus tripple checked with a 3X magifier, mirror lockup, eletronic cable release – the whole nine yards.

I processed the files, and examined them with and without optimium sharpening.

So why aren't the results here? Simply because I can't see any convincing difference in resolution or sharpness between them. Yes, the P65+ file is bigger and therefore will take more magnification. But between the Achromatic and the P45+ on which it's based I just don't consistently see anything to convince me that the non-Bayer Achromatic consistently offers sharper results.

This of course flies in the face of common wisdom, that the Bayer Array robs digital files or their inherent monochrome resolution. While that may be the case in the lab, in the real world, using the best shooting technique I know, I can't see it.


Mark Dubovoy doesn't agree, and Claus Mølgaard (Chief Technology Officer and Vice President R&D at Phase One) confirms it (same link):

Quote
Conclusion: The Achromatic back definitely has more resolution than a standard P45+ back. Compared to a P65+, however, the Achromatic back looses, but not by much.

You need to look carefully, and of course I have the advantage of the original files, so if you cannot see it in your computers, you will have to trust me that the P65+ has slightly superior resolution to the Achromatic back. I would say that the resolution of the Achromatic back is about 2/3 of the way between a standard P45+ and a P65+.

The point is: how much relevant in practical use are these differences... for a rangefinder (reportage) camera?

Kodak sensors for the Canon and Nikon mount reflex cameras were CMOS, were manufactured by other companies, without AA filters and (I think) with color filters by Kodak. The problem with those sensors was with the high ISO noise. In fact, you need very sophisticated (and expensive) CMOS designs for a good performance at high ISO values. CMOS architecture, by itself, isn't magic. This is a real problem for Leica (and Kodak) if they plan to develop a M camera with live view. Things aren't so easy! CMOSes is a natural way of evolution for the next M cameras, like live view and accessory EVF, because the technology is ready (not for Leica) and not so difficult to implement... in theory. But even considering this, it isn't straightforward to implement.

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« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 12:47:45 pm by Nemo »
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image66

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 10:47:09 am »

Am I the only person who finds these "Leica should do this" articles more than a bit condescending?

Leica is a small company and therefore we have this tendency to think that they are a bunch of bozos who don't know what it's like in the real world. To be successful they should hire a bunch of people from Canon and let them design the M10. That should do the trick. Instant success!

Our arrogance in telling Leica what we want in these "open letters" is couched in the spirit of "I'm only saying this because I care" attitude, but that puts ourselves up on a higher level than those ignorant people at Leica.  I have to write this open letter because they aren't listening to me. Maybe if they hired me as a consultant to guide them, then they will have "arrived".

The world of business history is littered with examples of where this has failed. Consultants with bright ideas rarely understand where the bones are buried. Just because we are users of cameras and knowledgeable in our own niches, doesn't mean that we are going to be successful at guiding a company like Leica in their niche markets.

I'm reminded of something. The great Herbert Keppler had a real issue with Canon and the stuffing of all those program modes in cameras. In article after article he would praise engineering over programming. One particular article on the A1 (yes, this goes back eons) he skewered Canon for use of inferior metering cells mounted in the viewfinder where they are affected by variations in the screens and of course light entering through the viewfinder. He praised Olympus for putting them in the mirror chamber where neither screen nor viewfinder contamination affected metering.

Mr. Keppler knew which was better and even made suggestions to Canon over and over again on how to "fix" their products. Canon, instead, knew that features trumped engineering and ignored his advice. To this day we live with viewfinder shutters and inability to change focus screen styles without screwing up the metering system.

If we are fair, we would be doing "I love you that's why I'm writing this tough love letter to you" articles on Canon and Nikon. I know Michael has this burr in his saddle about mirror-lockup, but otherwise it's love-fest city and the attitude of "they are successful therefore they are right". Canon won't give any of us anything more than they ever gave Mr. Keppler.

Why then are we, self-employed industry experts, so arrogant with Leica?

BTW, statistically, their sales of the M9 aren't just to old geezers and collectors.

Ken
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Wally

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 04:19:21 pm »

Quote from: Nemo
Do you think many people wants to bring a set of color filters for their lenses? The color and moiré problems of the M9 aren't so important.

Actually my guess is yes. I for one would much prefer this over to shooting in RAW and then converting to B&W in Lightroom. I would much rather shoot true B&W images in RAW with an AA filter or BA getting in the way.

I have carried filters for many years it really is easy and not very hard. In landscape use where you are working slower anyway you can also hold them up to your eye and check out the tonality before you even shoot a frame.

I am really surprised that Canon or Nikon or somone else does not make a dedicated B&W camera
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Alan Goldhammer

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 04:40:36 pm »

Quote from: Wally
I am really surprised that Canon or Nikon or somone else does not make a dedicated B&W camera
I''m not surprised at all.  I imagine that the market for a true B&W camera would be much smaller than the Leica M9 sales numbers.  We would be looking at a much higher price as a result.  About 40% of what I do is B&W and I would not want the added weight of an extra B&W body in my backpack along with the lenses and tripod.
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JohnBrew

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 07:39:55 pm »

Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
I''m not surprised at all.  I imagine that the market for a true B&W camera would be much smaller than the Leica M9 sales numbers.  We would be looking at a much higher price as a result.  About 40% of what I do is B&W and I would not want the added weight of an extra B&W body in my backpack along with the lenses and tripod.

Count me as one who would buy such a camera.

Wally

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2010, 10:02:08 am »

Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
I''m not surprised at all.  I imagine that the market for a true B&W camera would be much smaller than the Leica M9 sales numbers.  We would be looking at a much higher price as a result.  About 40% of what I do is B&W and I would not want the added weight of an extra B&W body in my backpack along with the lenses and tripod.

The difference of course is that while yes the market would be smaller than for a "standard" DSLR having a B&W only camera would be very easy to build into a standard off the shelf DSLR model. The only difference between say a standard 5DII and a B&W 5DII would be the sensor itself. Everything else could be the same. The only other thing besides the sensor that would be different would be the firmware but writing firmware for a B&W only camera would be much easier than a color one with a bayer array as there is no need to worry about which pixel is which color
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John Camp

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2010, 11:55:24 pm »

Quote from: image66
Am I the only person who finds these "Leica should do this" articles more than a bit condescending?

Leica is a small company and therefore we have this tendency to think that they are a bunch of bozos who don't know what it's like in the real world. To be successful they should hire a bunch of people from Canon and let them design the M10. That should do the trick. Instant success!


It might be better than what they have been doing, which is walking on the edge of bankruptcy for a couple of decades, only to be saved by investors who thought they saw some value in the brand name, if not the cameras. I read both Michael's and Thom's versions of what Leica should do, and I have my own version. I'm not sure that Leica's culture will let them go that way, and if not, they won't be the first company that has chosen bankruptcy over innovation.


JC
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BernardLanguillier

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 12:20:52 am »

Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
I''m not surprised at all.  I imagine that the market for a true B&W camera would be much smaller than the Leica M9 sales numbers.  We would be looking at a much higher price as a result.  About 40% of what I do is B&W and I would not want the added weight of an extra B&W body in my backpack along with the lenses and tripod.

I would think that the only way this could be implemented is through a modular approach.

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Goldhammer

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 09:01:01 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I would think that the only way this could be implemented is through a modular approach.

Cheers,
Bernard
You have a good thought here and it makes sense but is it financially feasible for a 35mm set up.  I certainly can see how it would work for larger format sizes where you could easily develop a separate B&W sensor module (though I still wonder whether there would be enough demand for it given the much lower market for that type of format).  For those of us who do not make our living through photography this would really have a high price tag and given the current financial conditions would be quite risky.
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jeffok

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 01:55:43 pm »

Thom Hogan wants the ideal Leica: "the perfect landscape camera for me: manual focus, B&W, high resolution, small and light enough to get deep into the backcountry." I already have this camera. It's called a Leica M6. Used with B&W film, scanned. Presto! No need to reinvent anything.
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Nemo

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Thom Hogan: wishful thinking
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 04:44:37 pm »



An interesting article about focus accuracy...

The Online Photographer: Focusing Follies

(The Online Photographer, Ctein).
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