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Author Topic: Photographers protest over UK terror search laws  (Read 2621 times)

David Saffir

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« on: January 24, 2010, 02:32:03 pm »

Professional and amateur photographers have gathered in London's Trafalgar Square to protest against terror stop and searches.

The photographers say police are intimidating people with cameras in tactics to target possible terrorists.
Last week the European Court of Human Rights ruled the power to stop people without suspicion was indiscriminate.

The government is appealing, saying it is vital to make cities a hostile place for any possible attacker.

news story here
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David Saffir
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fredjeang

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 01:43:46 pm »

Quote from: David Saffir
Professional and amateur photographers have gathered in London's Trafalgar Square to protest against terror stop and searches.

The photographers say police are intimidating people with cameras in tactics to target possible terrorists.
Last week the European Court of Human Rights ruled the power to stop people without suspicion was indiscriminate.

The government is appealing, saying it is vital to make cities a hostile place for any possible attacker.

news story here

Well...all I can say is that here in Madrid, apart from the very center ( where all the monuments are located ), there are new and recent behaviour from police towards photographers. Doing street photography, I've recently been controled and can say to you that they are not so much rutine. Thanks they Knew who I was, but there is a security psychosis. What I found is what Michael said somewhere: very young, unexperimented and badly paid officers who have orders so they need to fill the % of photographers controled per month...pathetic!
These problems in London are really serious and stupids.
Where are we going?
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LoisWakeman

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 05:51:43 am »

A lot of the problems are due to ill-educated junior staff wanting to throw their weight around. There has been considerable comment from senior police officers that the terror laws should not be used to stop street photography.

People with little power often like to feel important, and this is one way of doing it.
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JeffKohn

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 01:08:22 pm »

Quote from: LoisWakeman
A lot of the problems are due to ill-educated junior staff wanting to throw their weight around. There has been considerable comment from senior police officers that the terror laws should not be used to stop street photography.

People with little power often like to feel important, and this is one way of doing it.
Which is exactly why laws such as Section 44 have no place in a free society, they're all too easy to abuse. It's funny how people love to vilify the "Bush Patriot Act", but there's nothing in that legislation that affects the rights of citizens to anywhere near the extent of what the UK wrote into their anti-terrorism laws (and if I'm not mistaken it was the progressive who did it).

There definitely seems to be a tend in the UK, not only with the terrorism laws, but also the pervasive use of close-circuit cameras, the restrictions on photography on National Trust lands, etc. The UK is much farther down on my "want to visit" list than it used to be.
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Jeff Kohn
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AlbertK

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 02:25:39 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
Which is exactly why laws such as Section 44 have no place in a free society, they're all too easy to abuse. It's funny how people love to vilify the "Bush Patriot Act", but there's nothing in that legislation that affects the rights of citizens to anywhere near the extent of what the UK wrote into their anti-terrorism laws (and if I'm not mistaken it was the progressive who did it).

There definitely seems to be a tend in the UK, not only with the terrorism laws, but also the pervasive use of close-circuit cameras, the restrictions on photography on National Trust lands, etc. The UK is much farther down on my "want to visit" list than it used to be.

From the Beeb website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8476318.stm) '...According to the latest available figures, some 36,000 people were stopped under the power between April and June last year...'

36.000 people with a camera, harassed by the 'law' in the course of three months on suspicions of being a potential terrorist... Let that sink in for a moment...
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 02:26:51 pm by AlbertK »
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LoisWakeman

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2010, 10:28:40 am »

Quote from: JeffKohn
There definitely seems to be a tend in the UK, not only with the terrorism laws, but also the pervasive use of close-circuit cameras, the restrictions on photography on National Trust lands, etc. The UK is much farther down on my "want to visit" list than it used to be.
Oh - we are past masters of gold-plating legislation to make it far more oppressive than it needs to be. You only have to look at how EU regulations are implemented here and on the continent to see that. I have no idea why, since the ordinary citizen seems not to want it generally, but we do breed a horribly Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

I guess it's the days of running an Empire come back to haunt us.  

But I am sorry it has put you off visiting - I have to say that living where I do in the country most such laws and trends pass me by unnoticed - except the NT thing, which p***ed me off so much I resigned. I do take lots of landscapes on their territory though.
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Rob C

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 06:23:42 am »

Quote from: LoisWakeman
Oh - we are past masters of gold-plating legislation to make it far more oppressive than it needs to be. You only have to look at how EU regulations are implemented here and on the continent to see that. I have no idea why, since the ordinary citizen seems not to want it generally, but we do breed a horribly Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

I guess it's the days of running an Empire come back to haunt us.  

But I am sorry it has put you off visiting - I have to say that living where I do in the country most such laws and trends pass me by unnoticed - except the NT thing, which p***ed me off so much I resigned. I do take lots of landscapes on their territory though.





Lois

I'm sorry you have crossed swords with the NT, but I do think that those sorts of setups have their own internal problems, much associated with costs. It ain't cheap to run huge places (or they would never be in NT hands) and marketing their own attributes is part of their income source. I understand perfectly that they wish to reserve that for themselves. There are also risks, mainly indoors, from photography-related activities. I have worked in such places (with permission - shooting fashion) and there is no doubt that cables etc. strewn across floors present problems to other members of the public. Unless shot during closed periods this even exposes the NT to legal actions from members of the public who might trip, slip or slide, flip flop or fly  (depending on their musical taste). I accept that amateurs are unlikely to use cables, but even tripods can cause problems to others and to the surfaces on which they are placed; imagine your Gitzo falling onto a little side-table with a piece of expensive pottery on it...

There is a tendency to believe, that is fairly common - certainly since the 60s or thereabouts, that everything should be free and open to all. This simply is not the case and nor should it be. It is reflected in the right-of-way issues that deny landowners some rights to their own land and continues over into such concepts as copyright, where things are increasingly assumed to be free to all. Google's (I think it was them) recent cock-up in France with copying books without permission is a fairly big and recent example; industrially, what about the work-place ethic where employees have become conditioned/encouraged to imagine they own the factory, workplace or company, when all they really are is hired hands? This thing about rights is very thorny and it seems to me that the less direct a right some people actually have, the more they defend it.

But then, that's the way things go; everybody wants more, myself included. I remember that during the late 50s there was a saying in the UK that one of the differences between Britain and America was this: in the States, if a guy drives past you in a big limousine you would think 'if I work hard, I'll be able to get one too' whilst in Britain the thought would be 'why should that bastard have that if I don't' which may or may not have been representative of a period in our history. I wonder how the Americans saw this then or how they view these things now? Or even if that was the American thought process at all?

Photographing in public places isn't a new problem, though; many years ago I had the Clydesdale Bank in Scotland as one of my clients via their ad agency. I was asked to shoot some exterior shots of one of the branches and was in the process of doing so from across the street when, after a while, I was approached by their security. Possibly my fault for not going in to see them first, but it was an exterior shoot and the less I got in peoples' way the better - I thought. I certainly wasn't aware of any terrorist attacks in Glasgow then! That was the 70s, so security issues are not new.  Neither are X-Ray problems at airports: I had Kodachrome fogged (greenish tinge on skin) at Palma airport in '79 when I was refused a hand-search of the film bag.

Guess it's just part of the risk of the world we inhabit and we have to make the most of it. Also, don't forget that from a govt. perspective, they have to cover their asses in case of a terrorist attack, in the event of which they would be the first to be blamed for not doing enough. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Rob C
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 06:32:21 am by Rob C »
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JeffKohn

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 12:43:26 am »

Rob I think you're misunderstanding the issue with the NT. We're not talking about some model photographer not being aloud to set up studio equipment in an indoor venue, this is about a nature photographer shooting a picture of the coast and not being able to even post the image on the internet, let alone sell it. Suggest you take a look into this thread.
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Jeff Kohn
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Rob C

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Photographers protest over UK terror search laws
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 05:22:09 am »

Quote from: JeffKohn
Rob I think you're misunderstanding the issue with the NT. We're not talking about some model photographer not being aloud to set up studio equipment in an indoor venue, this is about a nature photographer shooting a picture of the coast and not being able to even post the image on the internet, let alone sell it. Suggest you take a look into this thread.





Read as instructed, Jeff, and I still think I understand their point of view which, in my reading of it, is totally and absolutely concerned with finance. Making a distinction between amateur and professional is hardly the point: the entire pro stock business has been effed by the so-called shamateur who takes his pics and is willing to publish for 'glory' and to hell with the damage to the pro that he may be creating. I am not saying that the NT gives a hoot for this distinction in the matter of how it affects the pro; what I am saying is that the putting into the public domain of pictorial matter inevitable means that it will be used to the detriment of a sale that the NT might otherwise have made, precisely my point regarding the interface between pro and am as well.

I can only revert to my opinion earlier on, where I point out that it is possibly the assumption of universal rights to everything, conditioned and certainly encouraged by recent political movements, that creates this situation where people think themselves free to do almost anything that they have a mind to so do, regardless of other peoples' own rights.

I realise mine will never be a position that will have general popularity; I am not in the business of seeking it. I am simply trying to figure out why rules and conditions are so generally opposed as if by a kind of natural reaction, a sense that, somehow, the individual's divine rights have been breached. Seems to me that until people are able to see more than a single point of view at a time, that's how it will always be.

Maybe the basic argument is whether one is willing or not willing to accept the concept of private property?

Rob C
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