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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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« on: January 22, 2010, 08:00:25 am »

I relaunched my old love photography not long ago after a break of about 20 years and
I am struggleing with a couple of things (in no particular order):

1.) Technical skill (shooting, RAW developing, color management ...)
2.) Getting back my "photographic eye"
3.) Re-inventing myself as a photographer after this long break.
4.) Finding out which camera will fit to me.

This post is about point 4.


As an amateur there are things I believe I won't need:

- I don't need to print larger than 30x40 cm.

- I don't need a 100% backup equipment - when its broken I send it in and wait.

- I don't need a 100% efficient workflow, though time is an issue for me as well,
   since I have a job and a life apart from photography.


What I still want:

- Digital - no way back to the wet darkroom.

- I take a lot of effort in making the images, so I want my equipment not to encumber me
technically or artistically and I want to have the chance to produce technically professional
grade photographs if I manage to develop the skill.
This implies good equipment and unfortunately some investment (I think 15 - 30k $ when its time to buy are okay for me, maybe more over time.).

- I want to have the flexibility to try out a lot of types of photography:
Landscape, studio (I bought a kit with 2 Bowens Gemini Bulbs and a background as a starter), still life, city street life and architecture, industry plants,  portrait.
I'm not in technical photography, repro, extensive macros or astronomy and such.

I won't buy an expensive equipment as long as I feel I can't utilize it due to lack of skill.

What I would like to know from the experienced people here would be what you would perceive as the main and significant difference in image quality and flexibility of application between a high end 35 mm system (like the Leica M system or Nikon D3X type of DSLR) and a low resolution midformat system (like a Phase One P25+).

What seems clear to me is, that a midformat system would offer flexibility to upgrade to higher resolutions (Which I doubt I'd ever need - would I ?) and the possibility to use a Linhof-type camera together with the DB which might be an option later.  Also some people told me, that even with identical resolution, the difference between a digital back and a high end 35 mm type camera would be clearly visible in terms of sharpness, color richness and tonal range. I also see, that the prices do not differ so extremely anymore, e.g. if I compare a Nikon Dxyz, Canon Mark xyz or Leica M with a Phase One kit or the prices for used midformat systems. So - in the moment I'm tempted to say:"Its going to be some midformat thing." On the other hand I feel uneasy about this - not only because of the idea managing a 2.5 kg monstrum, but also because I wonder if I will be able to really utilize such a beast and if it really makes sense at all if not printing larger than 30x40, which I would see as the maximum reasonable exhibition format (I know, 1.00x1.50 meters can be fun too).

In the moment I just have a Canon Powershot G11 as a decision finder and for partially solving issues 1-3 from the list above. So - I basically start from scratch.

Since I take my time for this decision I'm not too much worried, but - well - somehow I must start.

Suggestions ?

Thank you
~Chris
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 08:02:00 am by ChristophC »
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NikoJorj

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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 09:23:01 am »

From what you say here :
Quote from: ChristophC
- I don't need to print larger than 30x40 cm.
I'd say any current DSLR can produce professionnal quality at that size, if used skillfully.

From :
Quote
I want to have the flexibility to try out a lot of types of photography:
Landscape, studio (I bought a kit with 2 Bowens Gemini Bulbs and a background as a starter), still life, city street life and architecture, industry plants, portrait.
At least street photgraphy would preclude the use of a MFDB - even though nothing is impossible first, and second when you dropped a few tens of grands for a MFDB, adding one or a few grands more for a DSLR compliment shouldn't be that hard.
If you settle for a DSLR, architecture may require a tilt/shift (or at least shift) lens, which restrains choice.


Quote
I won't buy an expensive equipment as long as I feel I can't utilize it due to lack of skill.
Did you read http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/mf-easy.shtml ?
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ckimmerle

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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 09:36:01 am »

For printing at 40cm, you'd be wasting money on a medium format camera. Even a D3x would be overkill. I would suggest all you need is a camera in the 12-megapixel range. Since you want to try landscape and architecture and industrial photography, a full frame sensor is definitely going to work best. The Nikon D700 and the Canon 5D are both great cameras with professional specs and well worth a look.


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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 11:00:52 am »

Quote from: NikoJorj
I'd say any current DSLR can produce professionnal quality at that size, if used skillfully.

I have another question here (see bottom pls.).

 
Quote from: NikoJorj
At least street photgraphy would preclude the use of a MFDB - even though nothing is impossible first, and second when you dropped a few tens of grands for a MFDB, adding one or a few grands more for a DSLR compliment shouldn't be that hard.
If you settle for a DSLR, architecture may require a tilt/shift (or at least shift) lens, which restrains choice.

True. That would be an argument to start with a DSLR type system to get into the matter again and later add MFDB - or leave it if I see I won't need / be able to manage it.

Quote from: NikoJorj
Did you read http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/mf-easy.shtml ?

Yup. And it hits the type of craftsmanship I hope to achieve over time. My little anancastic traits will help me here I think.

Quote from: ckimmerle
For printing at 40cm, you'd be wasting money on a medium format camera. Even a D3x would be overkill. I would suggest all you need is a camera in the 12-megapixel range. Since you want to try landscape and architecture and industrial photography, a full frame sensor is definitely going to work best. The Nikon D700 and the Canon 5D are both great cameras with professional specs and well worth a look.

Thats why I am working with that Powershot G11 right now. But I'm afraid I will quickly
come to an end with that camera and will need something better to challenge myself.
If I'd use a DSLR as an addendum to a MFDB the D700 is already on my list for checking though I'm afraid if I get a 35mm format system it will be a Leica M9 due to the superb weight/size per image quality ratio since I like trekking.



Thank you for your comments so far, which I found helpful as a first iteration.




I have two more questions for today:

1.) What would you consider the maximum size for a top quality print for the 35 mm fullsize sensor type of camera in the 20 MP range before impacts on quality can be seen due to magnification ? (Canon Mark xyz, Nikon Dxyz, Leica M type).

2.) Is the thing I was told about the quality difference between High-End-35mm / MFDB
Cameras apart from the resolution (the sharpness / color / tonality  issue) considered to be true or a myth ?
I'll try to have tests on my own anyways, but still I'm curious on your opinion.


Thank You
~Chris



P.S.: Silly ?
[attachment=19637:IMG_1143...ownsized.jpg]
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 01:47:07 pm by ChristophC »
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Plekto

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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2010, 03:54:31 pm »

The software is basically all the same, so that removes a couple of the concerns(Lightroom, Photoshop, etc... the basics...).  I'd suggest getting a Mac because they run a little smoother and easier workflow-wise, but a PC will also work fine if that's all you have.

Stuff to spend money on:
- Epson and Canon make pretty much the only large format printers that I know of that are reasonably affordable.  Get a good large format inkjet printer and half of your battle is completed.  Software and a printer is essentially the equivalent of film's photo lab in your basement(just way less space and stink involved)  note - ink cost is the killer here, so shop carefully.  Expect to spend several thousand on a nice model.  

- Modern digital has to be thought of backwards, because over time you'll keep the lenses and the body will change.  For MF, you will be changing the digital backs every few years or so, and for a DSLR, the entire body.  At the sizes that you are printing at, you'll never see the difference between a DB and a DSLR.    Since your current and future requirements for the next 5-10 years can be met with *any* 20-25MP sensor, it's a no-brainer to stick with the much cheaper option of swapping cheaper DLSR bodies every few years.  20+MP may seem overkill now, but it will save you an upgrade or two later on.

- That said, the ability to use lenses for a long time is important, so that means a full-frame camera that can also use older lenses as well.  Remember that there are plenty of used lenses out there as well and also non OEM lenses as well, which sometimes have a few gems in them that are equal to or better than the OEM offerings.  Full-frame is non-negotiable for any serious photographer.

- That leaves you with a choice between Canon, Nikon, and Sony/Minolta.   Each has their advantages and disadvantages.  In your case, you want smaller and lighter.  Most DSLRs weigh about 1.5-2lbs, plus the lens.  That's not a lot different than the weight of old 35mm cameraa.  They were smaller, but mostly metal, while the new replacements are plastic and larger.  If you want truly tiny, you're kind of out of luck.  Leica can be an option here, but it's really a dead-end for professional work or will be in a few years as the next generation of bodies come out.

Here are your two main choices:
1: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controll...p;modelid=17662
The Canon 5D II - 21MP and a reasonably sized body.  $2500 and quite decent.  28 ounces for the body.

2: The Sony/Minolta A850.  24MP and 31 ounces for the body.  $2000.  

Nikon would be choice #3, but they offer nothing in a normal DSLR sized package that's in the 20MP+ range.  The D3x for instance, is a whopping 43 ounces.  No good for your intended use.  Too expensive, and too large.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 03:57:35 pm by Plekto »
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2010, 04:23:29 pm »

Hi!

I have some write up on the issue here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.ph...xels-do-we-need

Some short comments:

1) Many authors think that 12 MPixels are enough for normal size prints

2) I downloaded a couple of test shots from a Nikon 3DX and a  Hasselblad H3II-50 and printed both in A2 (about 40x60 cm). Knowing what to look for I could say that the Hasselblad image was sharper, but my overall impression was that the 3DX image was better. I showed the two prints to a friend with considerable experience (he was working earlier at one of Sweden's top pro labs) and he preferred the Nikon image (he considered it sharper). Now, I don't suggest that the Nikon 3DX is better than a Hasselbald H3II-50, but it seems the results wee better in this case.

Someone suggested this link: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/mf-easy.shtml it is a very good read.

Regarding camera choices, almost any system would be OK for 30x40 cm prints. The new full frame cameras may be attractive however. The Canon 5DII seems to be an excellent choice with a professional lens line and good high ISO capability at a very decent price. The full frame Sony's are also attractive but have a more limited choice of lenses. Nikon D700 is a great 12 MP camera and the D3X is probably the best DSLR, albeit with a very high price.




Best regards
Erik



Quote from: ChristophC
I have another question here (see bottom pls.).

 

True. That would be an argument to start with a DSLR type system to get into the matter again and later add MFDB - or leave it if I see I won't need / be able to manage it.



Yup. And it hits the type of craftsmanship I hope to achieve over time. My little anancastic traits will help me here I think.



Thats why I am working with that Powershot G11 right now. But I'm afraid I will quickly
come to an end with that camera and will need something better to challenge myself.
If I'd use a DSLR as an addendum to a MFDB the D700 is already on my list for checking though I'm afraid if I get a 35mm format system it will be a Leica M9 due to the superb weight/size per image quality ratio since I like trekking.



Thank you for your comments so far, which I found helpful as a first iteration.




I have two more questions for today:

1.) What would you consider the maximum size for a top quality print for the 35 mm fullsize sensor type of camera in the 20 MP range before impacts on quality can be seen due to magnification ? (Canon Mark xyz, Nikon Dxyz, Leica M type).

2.) Is the thing I was told about the quality difference between High-End-35mm / MFDB
Cameras apart from the resolution (the sharpness / color / tonality  issue) considered to be true or a myth ?
I'll try to have tests on my own anyways, but still I'm curious on your opinion.


Thank You
~Chris



P.S.: Silly ?
[attachment=19637:IMG_1143...ownsized.jpg]
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 04:52:46 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Alan Goldhammer

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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2010, 07:51:02 pm »

If money is no object and it sounds from your posts that this may be the case, it really doesn't matter which of the systems you and other posters mention.  All will give you good results.  If your printing is limited to A3 or Super B size then you could drop down a level to the Nikon D300 (which I have).  It's not all that heavy and will give you outstanding results.  I normally do most of my field shooting with everything in a Lowe backpack (camera body, 5 lenses and my tripod) and have never felt things are too heavy.  It does not have a full frame sensor but you quickly adjust to the 1.5 crop.  Nikon makes some outstanding D lenses for this camera including a number of good zooms.  You can also use all the other Nikon lenses as well (but need to remember that your field of view will be slightly different (a 24 mm lens give you the perspective of 36mm because of the sensor size).  I would not worry about the magnification issues.  If you frame the picture properly and do minimal (if any) cropping this is a non issue.  Sure you can look at high magnifications on a computer screen or crop way down and magnify the image but that is really not the real world of printing.
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feppe

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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2010, 08:13:18 pm »

If weight is an issue for hiking, I'd recommend taking a close look at m4/3 cameras, the Olympus E-P1 for example. The format is already close in performance to entry-level dSLRs, and are very small and light. Huge selection of lenses with adaptors, although only a few dedicated lenses.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 08:13:52 pm by feppe »
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2010, 03:50:17 pm »

Thank you very much everyone for your helpful input so far.

In the meantime, considering many input from various sources (including this thread), phone calls, talks and so on I came to an intermediate milestone because I overlooked an important fact and I had to revise some of the of the premises:

1.) One big problem I overlooked, and which really needed reconsideration is the fact, that I don't fully trust digital storage as opposed to film as an archiving media. I'm thinking in terms of 100+ years. But since I love the digital postprocessing I believe scanning and then digital might be the way to go.

2.) I think I need to reconsider my format constraint. I will occasionally print larger than 30x40, though not often. I believe some images need large formats or they won't work.





The intermediate vision of a solution which comes to my mind is the following:

a.) Keep my Canon Powershot G11 for fun, snapshots and exploring objects I want to revisit later. Its the camera I'l always have with me for now.

b.1) Get a 35 mm viewfinder system with good lenses.  Zeiss Ikon Viewfinder camera and Zeiss lenses come to my mind as an affordable solution compared to Leica. Same lens mount (M) as Leica, much cheaper, same optical quality. I don't need macro or super telephoto here ...
(I know about the 6 bit code issue if I want to use the lenses on a Leica body later, but it is not really an issue).
Maybe limit myself to B/W here and use high resolution film like Rollei ATO 2.1 and a tripod.
Once the M9 or a successor get cheaper or enter the second hand market get an M9 as a digital, though I'm tempted to get it from the beginning and use Zeiss lenses - not sure yet. I know 35mm film would limit me somewhat on color - digital clearly wins on color.

b.2) Alternatively get a DSLR like suggested above - still pondering. For 35 mm images I wouldn't care so much for the 100+years...


c.) Get an additional 4x5 camera for projects and situations where I want the technically possible maximum. Not sure where to go here - Linhof master Technika or Sinar Artec come to my mind, but I have a learning curve to take here first. Film - scan it by myself or let scan. Get 100 MP images for much less money.
 

These are intermediate thoughts and still subject to revision.

But I strongly believe I won't be happy with one system for all purposes.
In the meantime, before I'll really buy I'll use the G11 and I think I'll revive my old Mamiya Press - its 6x9 cm after all and I can start practising with a backplane and some minor tilting. ...




Further remarks and suggestions strongly welcome ....


Thank you very much.
~Chris
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 01:47:19 am by ChristophC »
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NikoJorj

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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 06:36:09 am »

Quote from: ChristophC
1.) One big problem I overlooked, and which really needed reconsideration is the fact, that I don't fully trust digital storage as opposed to film as an archiving media. I'm thinking in terms of 100+ years.
What are you exactly calling "archiving"?

If it's being able to (re)work on your images in the future, digital is much more efficient than film, thanks to lossless duplication on varied media.

If it's showing your images in the future, then the print is the thing. Please do remark that in color, digital inkjet printing is much more light-resistant than chemical processes (that OTOH may still have an edge in B&W).
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 07:07:35 am »

Quote from: NikoJorj
What are you exactly calling "archiving"?
Have the original data which are nearest to the final image as long available as possible and protect it from accident.

 
Quote from: NikoJorj
If it's being able to (re)work on your images in the future, digital is much more efficient than film, thanks to lossless duplication on varied media.
If I decide to go back to film, I'll still work with a digital scan. I love the digital postprocessing. I'll never go back to the wet darkroom, at least for positives.

 
Quote from: NikoJorj
If it's showing your images in the future, then the print is the thing. Please do remark that in color, digital inkjet printing is much more light-resistant than chemical processes (that OTOH may still have an edge in B&W).
Yes. And in color digital clearly outperforms film from what I learned. And I don't really want to give up color. Difficult question to me how to treat color.



EDIT: ADDENDUM
-------------------------------------
It seems, that two questions I must solve to go on in my decision which camera system(s) might fit my further path in photography:

1.) "Film or digital?": What would be the best way to archive images securely. I love digital, but do not yet trust it as I wrote above. What are proven backup concepts? In the moment I work with a mix of CD-ROM burning and Mirror RAID harddisks.

Could you more experienced people maybe elaborate on that issue of digital storage and backup ? Especially with a long term perspective in mind ?


2.) "RF+4x5' or DSLR+special equipment": Would it make sense to circumvent that 4x5"-film or -MFDB  (Ouch - money...) idea by using techniques like stitching from 35mm or equipment of the type Hasselblad to Canon converter or circumvent film on a view camera by using some adapter to have a 35mm FF sensor behind it - I believe I once saw an article about such a thing like a 35mm FF camera body behind a view camera instead of film of MFDB.


I would very much prefer to use small and light - slick equipment as much as possible (preferably a rangefinder camera type - unfortunately M9 is the only FF camera here in the moment or a Zeiss Ikon if I'd use film) and try not to use too cumbersome or expensive or bulky stuff. I'd pay the price for a bit more complicated workflow instead. And if I could get rid of my mistrust in digital storage/backup it would surely be a huge step forward. Maybe I'd go to something like Canon/Nikon/Sony DSLR then instead of rangefinder, if I had the feeling increased applicability would be worth it - though I'd not like the size.


Further suggestions/ideas/remarks strongly welcome

Thank you
~Chris
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 06:18:36 am by ChristophC »
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2010, 10:20:36 am »

Allright - I finally took a decision for an intermediate solution.

I got offered a brand new Nikon Coolscan LS 9000 ED for a reasonable price from a dealer who
found one left in one of their stores.
This means film!
I decided to re-activate my old Mamiya Press and bought some additional lenses and equipment for a
ridiculously cheap price for it. I'll have a 65 mm (+finder), 90 mm, 100 mm and 150 mm Mamiya Sekor
then, two Mamiya Press bodies, a focusing backplane, 4 x 120 film magazines and a bunch of 6x9 sheet
film magazines.

I'm going to use my Powershot G11 for fast and every day photography and the Mamiya Press for
"big" photography.

I'm going to scan and save all my old negatives and diapositives - some of them semi-destroyed by moisture/fungus. I expect the scanner to help me save a good deal of the old stuff.

Additional investments will be a big Gitzo carbon fibre tripod and a head and finally an ISP panel monitor.

Then it should be enough with big investments for some time.

Maybe in far future something like M system Zeiss Ikon and an Arca Swiss Rm3D.

But for now I think I can get into some serious photography again.

Thanks everyone for your help here in the thread and expect to see some results in the next months.

Cheers
~Chris
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