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Author Topic: Hasselblad H4D  (Read 6769 times)

nad54

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Hasselblad H4D
« on: January 22, 2010, 03:12:17 am »

Hi

Anyone out there with info about the delays with the H4D. Hasselblad are strangely quiet and my dealer has no information.

Please Phase users don't post negative comments in reply to this.

Andrew
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hsmeets

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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 04:26:38 am »

Quote from: nad54
Hi

Anyone out there with info about the delays with the H4D. Hasselblad are strangely quiet and my dealer has no information.

Please Phase users don't post negative comments in reply to this.

Andrew

Is the countdown to februari 1st no longer on the hasselblad website?
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narikin

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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 05:07:57 am »

Isn't it obvious to all that the 60mp H4D was announced prematurely as a spoiler so that Phase would not have the 'king of the hill' role to themselves for too long? Hasselblad just wanted to imply that they had one coming imminently so that Phase could not make them look second best for too long.

obviously they were not allowed the 60mp sensor for a good period of time (Phase must have had an exclusive lock on it for at least a year) so they pre-announced the H4D way, way, ahead of real-world availability, to try and screw Phase's real world lead.

just see it for what it was - market manipulation - and think of Hasselblad what you will.
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nad54

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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 05:10:19 am »

Quote from: hsmeets
Is the countdown to februari 1st no longer on the hasselblad website?

I think Hasseblad realised they had a potential pr/marketing disaster on hand. The wording now talks about letting people see your work ie some sort of online portfolio.

They were raising everybody's expectations of hardware.
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Toto

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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 01:43:03 pm »

Quote from: narikin
obviously they were not allowed the 60mp sensor for a good period of time (Phase must have had an exclusive lock on it for at least a year) so they pre-announced the H4D way, way, ahead of real-world availability, to try and screw Phase's real world lead.

Do you think the 60mp is really better than the 50mp ?

That's the real question ... and what about long exposure ?

One more question, excuse me lol, when did Phase One launch their P65+ (it seems to me it's quite new), so do yo think we have to wait still one year ? I don't think so ...
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Ken Doo

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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 01:54:15 pm »

Quote from: Toto
....
One more question, excuse me lol, when did Phase One launch their P65+ (it seems to me it's quite new), so do yo think we have to wait still one year ? I don't think so ...


The Phase One P65+ was released about a year ago.  I took delivery of my P65+ in late March 2009.   But yes, it's still quite new.  
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 01:55:02 pm by kdphotography »
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narikin

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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 02:11:34 pm »

Quote from: Toto
One more question, excuse me lol, when did Phase One launch their P65+ (it seems to me it's quite new), so do yo think we have to wait still one year ? I don't think so ...
if my memory is right:

Phase launched the P65+ in Nov 2008, real deliveries started early 2009. it has been the biggest and best sensor out there for a year.
Hasselblad didn't like being second best, so announced their 60mp sensor, to look like it was just about to arrive. and we waited.
and waited.
and waited.

it was a spoiler announcement, not a real product about to arrive, and nowhere near available.
other companies have done it before, and others will do it in the future.




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Nick-T

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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 09:10:41 pm »

Quote from: narikin
obviously they were not allowed the 60mp sensor for a good period of time (Phase must have had an exclusive lock on it for at least a year)

This is simply not true.
Nick-T
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narikin

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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2010, 02:33:23 pm »

Quote from: Nick-T
This is simply not true.
Nick-T
the 60Mp sensor was a Phase-Imacon development, so they had exclusive use of it.
if this was not true, they Hassy would have brought theirs out at the same time, or a few weeks later.
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BJNY

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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2010, 04:13:02 pm »

Quote from: narikin
the 60Mp sensor was a Phase-Imacon development, so they had exclusive use of it.
if this was not true, they Hassy would have brought theirs out at the same time, or a few weeks later.

You mean Phase-Dalsa development, correct?

Perhaps it takes a whole lot of time learning response out of Dalsa CCD.



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Guillermo

nad54

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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2010, 12:10:55 pm »

Quote from: nad54
Hi

Anyone out there with info about the delays with the H4D. Hasselblad are strangely quiet and my dealer has no information.

Please Phase users don't post negative comments in reply to this.

Andrew


JUst heard from Hasselblad in the UK

"The H4D-50 started shipping last Monday 18th Jan."
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TechTalk

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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2010, 03:34:48 pm »

Quote from: nad54
Hi

Anyone out there with info about the delays with the H4D. Hasselblad are strangely quiet and my dealer has no information.

Please Phase users don't post negative comments in reply to this.

Andrew


Quote from: nad54
JUst heard from Hasselblad in the UK

"The H4D-50 started shipping last Monday 18th Jan."

Congratulations to the original poster for being the first to actually answer his original question.

For those keeping score, it took two posts for the Hasselblad bashing to begin. Ten posts for the original poster to get a useful response--and he had to reply to himself to get it!

The H4D has not been delayed. However, the delivery order has been reversed. When the H4D was announced in September 2009, Hasselblad gave delivery dates of Jan. 2010 for the H4D-60 and the H4D-50 to follow later in Q1 2010. This has been reversed and the H4D-50 is now shipping with the H4D-60 to follow mid-March 2010.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 05:09:42 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2010, 05:07:41 pm »

Quote from: narikin
Isn't it obvious to all that the 60mp H4D was announced prematurely as a spoiler so that Phase would not have the 'king of the hill' role to themselves for too long? Hasselblad just wanted to imply that they had one coming imminently so that Phase could not make them look second best for too long.

obviously they were not allowed the 60mp sensor for a good period of time (Phase must have had an exclusive lock on it for at least a year) so they pre-announced the H4D way, way, ahead of real-world availability, to try and screw Phase's real world lead.

just see it for what it was - market manipulation - and think of Hasselblad what you will.


Quote from: narikin
if my memory is right:

Phase launched the P65+ in Nov 2008, real deliveries started early 2009. it has been the biggest and best sensor out there for a year.
Hasselblad didn't like being second best, so announced their 60mp sensor, to look like it was just about to arrive. and we waited.
and waited.
and waited.

it was a spoiler announcement, not a real product about to arrive, and nowhere near available.
other companies have done it before, and others will do it in the future.
September 2007... Hasselblad launches H3DII series in 22/31/39mp. Several new upgrades including 3" screen. All models available for immediate delivery when announced.

July 7, 2008... Hasselblad announces the H3DII-50. The highest resolution camera yet. Announced delivery date October 2008.

July 14, 2008... One week after Hasselblad's 50mp camera announcement, Phase One announces the P65+ 60mp back with innovative "Sensor Plus Technology". Announced delivery date Q4 2008.

September 2008... H3DII-50 starts shipping one month ahead of schedule.

September 2008... Photokina in Cologne, Hasselblad now shipping H3DII-50 and announces H3DII-60. Announced delivery date April 2009.

December 2008... Q4 ends. No Phase One P65+ deliveries.

March 2009... The P65+ 60mp back (that Phase One announced one-week after Hasselblad announced their 50mp camera) starts shipping--8-months after announcement in July 2008 and 6-months after the Hasselblad 50mp has begun to ship.

April 2009... No Hasselblad H3DII-60 deliveries.

September 2009... Hasselblad announces H4D series with innovative new autofocus system. Announces that H4D-60 will replace the H3DII-60 that has never shipped. Any pre-orders for H3DII-60 are automatically converted to H4D-60. Post H4D announcement H3DII-50 purchases get free upgrade to H4D. Announced delivery dates Jan. 2010 for H4D-60 later in Q1 2010 for H4D-50.

January 2010... H4D-50 starts shipping ahead of schedule. H4D-60 scheduled for mid-March.

That is an accurate and fairly complete history of the Hasselblad / Phase One announcement and delivery competition for the past couple of years. Make of it what you will. Every company involved in high-technology products of any kind get caught up in the same marketing games. Engineers would prefer that the marketing department not pester them for project completion estimates because unanticipated issues can (and often do) cause delays.

Some products are available when announced. Some are pre-announced and arrive on schedule. Some are pre-announced and delayed. Some arrive in a slightly different form than announced--like the anticipated H3DII-60 morphing into an H4D-60. Some never arrive at all--like the much discussed Phase One Wi-Fi Transmitter from a few years ago. The key thing to remember is no product exists until it ships!

My best regards to "narikin". I'm sure your talent as a photographer far exceeds your accuracy as a historian.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2010, 05:22:45 pm »

Quote from: TechTalk
December 2008... Q4 ends. No Phase One P65+ deliveries.

Nit-picking only since you were so thorough in your timeline:

October 2008: P65+ pre production units make their way around the country including to the GetDPI.com winter workshop in Moab. Firmware for higher ISO is still being worked on, and they have a few small bugs (if they didn't then they would be shipping!) but performance at base ISO is stellar.

December 2008: P65+ deliveries begin December of 2008 (and Jan/Feb 2009). However these units did not have Sensor+ enabled - several of our customers who were not interested in Sensor+ took delivery of their units and began making immediate use of the full 60 megapixels (and have since had their units upgraded to include sensor plus at no extra charge).

March 2009: Deliveries of P65+ units with Sensor+ enabled begin. ISO range up to ISO3200 and speeds up to 1.4 frames per second.

Quote from: TechTalk
Make of it what you will. Every company involved in high-technology products of any kind get caught up in the same marketing games. Engineers would prefer that the marketing department not pester them for project completion estimates because unanticipated issues can (and often do) cause delays.

Some products are available when announced. Some are pre-announced and arrive on schedule. Some are pre-announced and delayed. Some arrive in a slightly different form than announced--like the anticipated H3DII-60 morphing into an H4D-60. Some never arrive at all--like the much discussed Phase One Wi-Fi Transmitter from a few years ago. The key thing to remember is no product exists until it ships! (emphasis mine)

Couldn't agree more.

Doug Peterson
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TechTalk

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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2010, 08:38:28 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Nit-picking only since you were so thorough in your timeline:

October 2008: P65+ pre production units make their way around the country including to the GetDPI.com winter workshop in Moab. Firmware for higher ISO is still being worked on, and they have a few small bugs (if they didn't then they would be shipping!) but performance at base ISO is stellar.

December 2008: P65+ deliveries begin December of 2008 (and Jan/Feb 2009). However these units did not have Sensor+ enabled - several of our customers who were not interested in Sensor+ took delivery of their units and began making immediate use of the full 60 megapixels (and have since had their units upgraded to include sensor plus at no extra charge).

March 2009: Deliveries of P65+ units with Sensor+ enabled begin. ISO range up to ISO3200 and speeds up to 1.4 frames per second

Doug Peterson
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That's alright, I like to pick nits. So let's pick some.

"Pre-production units" Doug? Really? I was missing those in my chronology? We should somehow factor in a bonus-point system, in this terribly unproductive contest, for when people first saw prototypes (I'm sorry--pre-production units)--Is that what I missed? You got one of the points that I was trying to convey (products exist when you can actually take delivery), but I think you missed the others.

As to those units delivered without the Sensor+, you have a point--but let's not forget to mention that the Sensor+ technology was a very big part of the July 2008 product announcement. See Link... P65+ Press Release   Didn't those pre-March units have to go back to the factory in order to have the Sensor+ technology added to them?

One more nit Doug. Could you get some one to fix the math on your website regarding the P65+ dimensions? Specifically where you say... "For those counting micrometers (µm) the frame size of the P65+ is 10 µm smaller on the left and right and 5 µm smaller on the top and bottom than a traditional 120 film exposure. See the diagram to the right. This means a 35mm lens when used with a P65+ would be the same image as a 36mm lens when used with 120 film, a negligible difference."

When I last checked, "645" film dimensions were 41.5mm x 56mm and a micrometer (micron) was 1/1,000th of a millimeter. A P65+ sensor is 53.9mm wide and is thus 2.1mm or 2,100 µm shorter in width than film. 2,100 µm is a little more than 10 µm (only off by a factor of 210X). And the P65+ is 1.1mm or 1,100 µm short in the vertical direction--220x more than the 5 µm figure that you list.   Capture Integration P65+ Link
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2010, 01:23:11 am »

TechTalk: I think you may have interpreted a tone that I did not intend. I fully agree with you and was simply adding two useful points of data to your timeline. You are right in your two essential points: 1) every company does do this 2) the only product you can be 100% sure is one that is available NOW.

Quote from: TechTalk
"Pre-production units" Doug? Really? I was missing those in my chronology?

Demonstrating properly functioning pre-production units suggests that a product is not vaporware. In other words it's a good sign. It is by no means a guarantee - as you point out the only guarantee is the one you can take home today - but it's a useful datapoint.


Quote from: TechTalk
As to those units delivered without the Sensor+, you have a point--but let's not forget to mention that the Sensor+ technology was a very big part of the July 2008 product announcement. [...]   Didn't those pre-March units have to go back to the factory in order to have the Sensor+ technology added to them?

Those users were given the option to either ship theirs in to have their specific unit upgraded or to receive a brand new Sensor+ back and send their non-sensor-plus-back after it was received. The vast majority opted to receive a new Sensor+ enabled back so that they were never without a back.

Sensor+ was indeed a huge part of the announcement and by shipping only P65+ units without Sensor+ Phase effectively missed their own stated target for availability by 2-3 months and deserves to be criticized. Shipping 65+ units before sensor+ was ready gave a nice option for several of our customers however whose shooting styles/desires weren't going to benefit from Sensor+.

Quote from: TechTalk
One more nit Doug. Could you get some one to fix the math on your website [...] Capture Integration P65+ Link

Darn metric system. I mean what's an order of magnitude or two between friends?

Seriously though I personally screwed this up and have now fixed it. Note that both before and after the correction the paragraph refers to the amount of crop on EACH side rather than the crop-of-total-dimension and therefore our numbers should be 1/2 of yours  (though obviously not 1/200!). In all seriousness: thanks for pointing out the error.

Doug Peterson
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