HP Z3200 printer questions

[EricWHiss]

Hi All,
I've been printing with a new z3200 for the last few days and have been reading though the forums here collecting ideas and info. Still I've got a few questions... could I ask those of you with more printing experience than I and particularly with the Z3200 for a little help?
Thanks,
Eric



1) Are there any gains from iterative profiling? Meaning if I profile the paper twice in a row will the resulting profile be better or just the same?  Are there any tricks that can be used to get better profiles (without springing for the APS?)
2) For black and white, who is mostly using grey only and why?   I printed some files with the grey only option and color only option and couldn't see much difference but in reading through the threads here on LuLa I saw a bunch of discussion on grey only.
3) May be a weird question but is anyone using the gloss enhancer on matter papers and if so how does it look + how do you set it up easily. I think I can do this by making a custom paper and telling the printer is a semi gloss paper? Is that the right way?
4) Cut sheet loading - okay this seems really sloooow.   I've been doing with the skew check off, but any fast ways to do this? Seems like I should just be able to lift the lever and feed into the blue lines and let the lever down and be printing but I can't figure out how.
5) How accurate are the displays showing remaining ink volumes?  I don't want to be caught without replacements and my old Epson would go from like 20% to zero in a print or two sometimes and catch me off guard.
6) What occasions are you adjusting the ink levels for printing and why?  I mean isn't this what the paper calibration is doing for you?
7) I'm printing from lightroom 2.x with a Mac running OS-10.6.2 - and I've calibrated both my screens and set the luminance down to 120 cd/m.  Colors match well to what I see on screen for the papers I've tried so far but the prints are definitely darker.  I can't figure out why as I've had no probs with other printers I've used - hoping I'm doing something wrong.  Using LR with application managed color - correct paper preset and profiles selected. Any thoughts?
I found the wiki for the z3100 but is there one for the 3200?
9) When making a custom paper preset, why would I ever want the wheels down?

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi All,
I've been printing with a new z3200 for the last few days and have been reading though the forums here collecting ideas and info. Still I've got a few questions... could I ask those of you with more printing experience than I and particularly with the Z3200 for a little help?
Thanks,
Eric



1) Are there any gains from iterative profiling? Meaning if I profile the paper twice in a row will the resulting profile be better or just the same?  Are there any tricks that can be used to get better profiles (without springing for the APS?)
2) For black and white, who is mostly using grey only and why?   I printed some files with the grey only option and color only option and couldn't see much difference but in reading through the threads here on LuLa I saw a bunch of discussion on grey only.
3) May be a weird question but is anyone using the gloss enhancer on matter papers and if so how does it look + how do you set it up easily. I think I can do this by making a custom paper and telling the printer is a semi gloss paper? Is that the right way?
4) Cut sheet loading - okay this seems really sloooow.   I've been doing with the skew check off, but any fast ways to do this? Seems like I should just be able to lift the lever and feed into the blue lines and let the lever down and be printing but I can't figure out how.
5) How accurate are the displays showing remaining ink volumes?  I don't want to be caught without replacements and my old Epson would go from like 20% to zero in a print or two sometimes and catch me off guard.
6) What occasions are you adjusting the ink levels for printing and why?  I mean isn't this what the paper calibration is doing for you?
7) I'm printing from lightroom 2.x with a Mac running OS-10.6.2 - and I've calibrated both my screens and set the luminance down to 120 cd/m.  Colors match well to what I see on screen for the papers I've tried so far but the prints are definitely darker.  I can't figure out why as I've had no probs with other printers I've used - hoping I'm doing something wrong.  Using LR with application managed color - correct paper preset and profiles selected. Any thoughts?
I found the wiki for the z3100 but is there one for the 3200?
9) When making a custom paper preset, why would I ever want the wheels down?

1/ How would you do iterative profiling with Color Center?  The next question is whether the differences between the straight and iterative profile isn't falling within fluctuations of the total system: the printer, the spectrometer and the calibration (paper batches included). In some cases iterative profiling can create better profiles but I see it used more often to compensate a lower patch number on targets.

2/ In the past on the Z3100 I measured a bit more Dmax on matte papers with B&W mode. Now I tend to print as much B&W through color mode on the Z3200 as I do on the Z3100 B&W mode. It is easier to set B&W toning to the paper white with profile creation + color mode than by hand in the B&W mode.
A bit ambivalent on this right now.

3/ Doesn't create anything extra in my opinion after some trials. Some semi matte fiber papers show the difference. Sihl Satin Barite for example, just enough to lift the image from the border with Economy mode. It t doesn't do anything visual on matte papers and no gain in scratch resistance or other protection either.

4/ Epson style pre 9900 would be faster. That's my opinion too. Loading over a paper roll through the roll slit and keeping the paper edge against the spindle disk goes better in my opinion than through the sheet tray. I use the skew check on method on teh Z3200 as it goes faster most of the time.

5/ Pretty reliable. Very good for just in time ink ordering and reliable enough to predict whether the next run can still be done on that very low cart. And when there isn't enough ink to finish the print most of the time you will not notice where printing has stopped for placing a new cart.

6/ You mean in creating a custom media profile? Or in the advanced color management settings in the driver? I never use the last.

7/ No Lightroom user but 120 cd is still on the high side. Either the viewing light + later display conditions have to be made higher (difficult) or you should reduce the monitor output. If the monitor can't cope one way or another then you better live with the knowledge that your prints will need some editing to get equal.

8/ Nope

9/ Good question.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[artobest]

It is easier to set B&W toning to the paper white with profile creation + color mode than by hand in the B&W mode.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Can you explain this a little more please, Ernst?

[EricWHiss]

Ernst,
Thanks for your reply and information. Much appreciated.


Regarding my question #3

Last night I took a matte photo paper (breathing color sterling) and created a custom paper preset with it using a photo semi gloss - more ink preset to start with so I could use the GE to experiment.   I found that using the GE on the paper did not improve the blacks nor the look - much in agreement with your experience.

Regarding my question #7

What luminance is correct for my monitor? What's odd to me is that when I send a print to my HP B9180 they match my screen very well and I never thought they were dark, while the prints to the z3200 do seem dark.  That's why I thought I might be doing something wrong in the print settings.  Anyone else reading using lightroom+OS-X 10.6 to print to your z3200?


Eric

[howseth]

#7 "What luminance is correct for my monitor? What's odd to me is that when I send a print to my HP B9180 they match my screen very well and I never thought they were dark, while the prints to the z3200 do seem dark. That's why I thought I might be doing something wrong in the print settings. Anyone else reading using lightroom+OS-X 10.6 to print to your z3200?"

I have had this discussion here before concerning the HP Z3100 (and other machines). My prints with the Z3100 are always too dark if I set my monitor at the 120 cd/m recommendation - therefore, I go with 100 instead - Viewing light matters in this. - and possibly size of print. Even at 100 cd/m - I also still add a Brightness/contrast adjustment layer on top of my Photoshop files to tweak the brightness if I need to.

Lowering the monitors luminance was discouraged by some users - but it is still the best solution I have come up with for my set-up...

Howard

[EricWHiss]

update:

Prints on the HP Z3200 are still darker than prints from the same file printed to my B9180.   Because it works fine on my B9180 and previous printers - I'm skeptical this could be a problem with screen calibration.  Nonetheless, I've set my monitor to 80cd/m and still the Z print was darker than what I saw on screen.  I printed the same file from photoshop CS3 and also got a dark print.
But oddly I printed on of Bill Atkinson's test image files which are in lab space and this worked fine using the exact same application managed workflow - I got a print that matched well to screen. So what's going on?  Anyone have any ideas?  

Eric

[howseth]

Lab Space? So, It works to match your screen brightness? You got me stumped! How can that be? We need someone to comment on Lab Space then. (I should also mention I always use the soft proofing in Photoshop to match my paper.)

Howard

[EricWHiss]

Well I am stumped too!  I can't figure out what's going on.  Have NEC 2690 W2 screen with spectraview and its calibrated well.    Prints from lightroom to B9180 using application managed color with profiled papers are perfect while prints using same workflow to Z3200 are dark. Colors match well but darker.  After testing the screen calibration brightness setting, I realized this is not the issue.  There's something going on with a larger effect.   Hmm.....

[EricWHiss]

I think I have the problem figured out with the settings and profiles.  
It seems to have to do with the Mac Snow Leopard driver for the HP in combination with lightroom and custom paper presets working together with the printer.  

Here's all the places to put in information:
The color management section in the Lightroom Print panel allows you to select managed by printer or a color profile and rendering intent
The print settings of the driver you can also choose either colorsync or vendor managed in the color matching section
Further within the print driver there is another color options tab where you do color settings as well as enter paper preset information and any color adjustments.
The printer also collects information about what paper has been loaded in the front panel - and has information if you loaded the paper before going to the print menu or doesn't have information.


There is communication between the printer, lightroom, and the print driver and some automatic stuff is going on in the background.  For example the color matching fields and selections can change depending on what you do with lightroom first, and what's been loaded into the printer.  I think that when the printer/driver/lightroom combination is working differently with custom papers than with the supplied presets.      

[Ernst Dinkla]

Well, I wrote I'm not a Lightroom user. I have no Mac either and so do not undergo the blessings of Colorsync.  There is a lot written on the LL forums and the Colorsync list these days about what can go wrong in CM with an Apple OS + Adobe Software.  I'm afraid you have to find your solution to the problem in the discussions still continuing. Hot topic now is Apple's Aperture. I'm glad I do not have to read it all. That it degrades the graphic arts imago of the Mac must be clear.

There's a lot in favor of more transparant CM systems that can be switched off, totally or on selected parts so they can work independently or work together in a decent way. That without an undercurrent of (well meaning) automatic corrections on what an average user may have done wrong CM wise, which at the same time forces the pro user to take strange detours for his optimisation of CM. That it will improve the images of the average user has to be seen.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[EricWHiss]

Well, I wrote I'm not a Lightroom user. I have no Mac either and so do not undergo the blessings of Colorsync.  There is a lot written on the LL forums and the Colorsync list these days about what can go wrong in CM with an Apple OS + Adobe Software.  I'm afraid you have to find your solution to the problem in the discussions still continuing. Hot topic now is Apple's Aperture. I'm glad I do not have to read it all. That it degrades the graphic arts imago of the Mac must be clear.

There's a lot in favor of more transparant CM systems that can be switched off, totally or on selected parts so they can work independently or work together in a decent way. That without an undercurrent of (well meaning) automatic corrections on what an average user may have done wrong CM wise, which at the same time forces the pro user to take strange detours for his optimisation of CM. That it will improve the images of the average user has to be seen.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Yes, you did write that and no worries. Thank you for your help so far.  I'll report back what I find.
btw - I'm quite happy with my Mac's, however I'm no fan of Aperture and dumped that a while ago.  

Regarding the printer, it certainly seems capable of quite nice prints...wonderful blacks... really excited about it.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Sorry, a misunderstanding, I have no special feelings for either Mac or PC. It is more that I see problems arise when the interfaces become too smooth and the underlying systems get compromised for that smoothness.  One day we need Linux to avoid CM mistakes.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/  

[ValeryAyapov]

Yes, you did write that and no worries. Thank you for your help so far.  I'll report back what I find.

Hello Eric! How it is going?

Struggling with similar issues with my z3200 and 3100 - dark prints, and it seems colors do not match the monitor (reds).
I have also came to conclusion that there is something between OSX, application, Hp Driver and printer itself.
Doing a lot of research to localize the problem but overwhelmed with list of possible reasons.

Maybe my color management workflow is not right?

In or studio we do the following:

1. Using HP APS v1.4 and X-Rite EyeOne Pro:

1.1 Calibrating and profiling Apple Cinema monitors
White point: 6500
Gamma: 2.2
Luminance: 120 cd

1.2 We calibrate and profile both printers for intended medium - (Z3100 for Hp Satin paper) and (Z3200 for Prof Matte Canvas)
Neutal Grey, D=65

2. Using Adobe Lightroom 2.5 and RAW files - we are doing all necessary white balance and color corrections etc and export
to  8 bit sRGB .psd files for further retouching

3. Using PS CS4 running on OSX 10.5.8 we print sRGB photos:
Settings are:
- Color Handling: Photoshop Manages Colors
- Printer Profile: (using the profile created with APS in step 1.2 for intended media)
- Rendering Intent: Perceptual
- Black Point Compensation is ON
- pressing the print button

then in Print Tab we select Paper Type/Quality from the drop-down menu, then select the Paper tab.:
- Paper Type: we select from pre-installed HP list the paper type
- Quality options: Custom/Normal
- Click print

Color Management example available here: HP Designjet Z3200 Photo Printer Series - User Guide [English]

Do you think Downgrading to OSX 10.4 and Photoshop CS1 or 2 will do the trick?
Or should I install QImage on XP and Bootcamping for print task?
Or possibly one or more of our workflow steps wrong?

(My system now is OSX 10.5.8/PS CS3&4).

Read almost everything on this forum - a lot of insights here and there - but no complete down-to-earth workflow...

[EricWHiss]

Hi Valery,
I think my problem had to do order I was doing things.  I found that if I loaded the paper first (using mostly sheets right now) and told the printer what paper etc, then the correct driver configuration would be loaded automatically in the print settings.  I think that if there's no paper set in the printer then you get choices for color matching in the print settings menu when you really don't want any and that way can lead to the wrong selection of settings.  This might also happen if the printer is asleep.  But once awake and paper loaded you can't make any selections in the color matching section and everything works.
Eric

[ValeryAyapov]

Hi Valery,
I think my problem had to do order I was doing things.  I found that if I loaded the paper first (using mostly sheets right now) and told the printer what paper etc, then the correct driver configuration would be loaded automatically in the print settings.  I think that if there's no paper set in the printer then you get choices for color matching in the print settings menu when you really don't want any and that way can lead to the wrong selection of settings.  This might also happen if the printer is asleep.  But once awake and paper loaded you can't make any selections in the color matching section and everything works.
Eric

Yes Erick, I saw that Color Match setting grayed out to ColorSync.

I am not saying that prints are unacceptable - but colors still inaccurate.
Maybe I am asking too much from my Z printers - but I know it is one of the most capable printers.

Erick, hope I am not spoil your thread if dear owners of Z3200 share their respected Z3200 workflows here?
This will allow to get up quickly with the new printer for many people.
I know by myself how frustrating it is to spend hours and days trying to figure out whats wrong.

Edit> Oh, well and what is hiding behind the mysterious "Double Profiling Issue"?

[mgabr00]

Dear all
I am new to this forum ,however I have been through the frustration of getting it right with the hp z3200.
The whole point is to completely disable the printers control over color
there is nothing wrong with your monitors,provided you have it decently calibrated
the main thing is that you should not double color management from 2 sources
on Mac Os:
in the print dialogue choose ,Photoshop manages colors
below it choose the paper profile that you had previously created
choose perceptual for color intent
and to the left bottom check ( Match print colors ),leave show paper white unchecked
then from print settings tab go to color matching and make sure everything is greyed out
then to ( Paper/Quality) and load the calibrated paper
then save and print
et Voila ,hope this helps

PS, you have to redo the first steps every time you have a new image to print
if you save the images after making the adjustments ,it will retain your settings next time you open it
Cheers
M. Gabr
mgabr.com

[Miles]

On my Z3100, I wrestled with the issue of dark prints for quite some time.  120 cd/m for screen brightness resulted in the print always being too dark.  After researching the issue, many recommended 90 cd/m as being more appropriate.  I tried this setting for a while, but found that my screen images looked flat and lost punch at this setting (I am sure a better monitor would make a difference).  I settled at 105 cd/m for the monitor and increased the lighting in my computer monitor/print room and now have a much better match between print and screen.  Room lighting, screen brightness and print viewing light all need to come together to get satisfactory results.

[Carsten_NC]

Can someone comment on the success of the workflow described by mgabr.
I have similar problems on a PC with CS5 and a Z3100. Main issues are: prints to dark, reds, oranges and purples are not correct on matte papers or canvas.
My monitor is calibrated to 80 cd/m, but I am usually work in a more darkroom atmosphere.
I will try his settings on my setup tonight and report back here. Maybe somebody also can comment on this.

[Damir]

When I upgrade to Photoshop CS4 i had problem with all my printers - wrong colors, print too dark and so on.

I return to CS3 which I am using now and do not intend to move from it.

[chichornio]

I also have a z3200ps 44" wide. First at all, WYSIWYG it´s not possible, specially in matte papers. You can get a very accurate screen to print match with satin or glossy papers, if your working enviroment is properly "dark" iluminated. What I´ve found it´s a cheap but very reliable solution: after reserching a lot, I´ve found an almost new Sony FD 17" CPD-E220 Trinitron CRT monitor, and now I´m happy with the match. I spent only us$100. The other expensive way will be to ge a HP Dreamcolor color monitor, but it cost about 2k.