Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600  (Read 6836 times)

RogerEle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« on: January 06, 2010, 01:22:19 am »

Hello,

I am a photographer with a retail studio. I have the Ilford Studio system ... Epson 9600 with Onyx RIP branded with the Ilford studio name, configured to not be able to load/make other profiles (without spending 2K for an upgrade).

Ilford discontinued their canvas, so I tried the Lexjet Canvas printing directly from Photoshop (which was foreign to me - I have always done all of my printing to the Onyx RIP. The lexjet canvas was so much better than Ilford's - thank you Ilford!  

Then Ilford announced they were cutting the Pearl paper we used ... so I started looking for a replacement paper and ordered the Lexjet eSatin ... figured out how to build images of multiple photos for printing from Photoshop on roll paper and that is now easy and painless - and the Lexjet profile for their paper is spot on and much better than the Ilford/Onyx combination we were used to (a problem of red skin blooming magenta we had disappeared) ... the Lexjet paper is pretty ... but hey, how much better and more efficient could it get, so I ordered ImagePrint from Lexjet with the understanding that I could return it if it didn't knock my socks off.  

I did some Lexjet eSatin test prints from Photoshop and then through the different profiles and settings with ImagePrint and the difference only seems to be in a little gentler highlights in ImagePrint. (The Lexjet eSatin profile is not available in a DCM (Dynamic Contrast Matching if I remember right) version, so this could also be why it is a little gentler in the highlights... ) or it could just be a difference in the profiles...

I also tried the ImagePrint gray profile for black and white. ImagePrint's gray profile prints neutral.  Black and white images print closer to neutral through the Lexjet profile and Photoshop than they do through ImagePrint using ImagePrints color profile.  Imageprints gray profile prints black & whites lighter than when printed though a color profile, but I imagine I could get close to replicating that with a curves adjustment if I wanted that look ...

So, before I get hasty and return ImagePrint, some questions ...

Should I be using Matte ink instead of Photo Black ink for matte papers?  Does it make a big difference?  With the Onyx RIP I have only printed with Ilford papers and the Photo Black Ink - because it did a good job with the Ilford Fine Art Matte paper and I didn't want the hassle and expense of swapping inks...

The Lexjet profile for their eSatin paper is very close to ImagePrints output of the same test images, should I expect that close a match in quality if I have custom profiles built printing through the print driver (Photoshop/Qimage)?  Is the answer different for matte papers?

I am open to buying custom profiles, if they will really perform and give me reasonably neutral black & whites.  

If ImagePrints ink limit handling and any other RIP acrobatics are really what they hype them up to be, I don't want to miss out on a boost in quality ... I have run along thinking I had everything dialed in and then printed a photo which had a color/tone in it that raised it's ugly head, so testing with test images is never the final say and I know that I don't know - I would really appreciate any feedback! (before it is to late to  return Imageprint)  

Thank You!
Logged

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2010, 03:46:45 am »

Adding an ImagePrint RIP to a 9600 model, 7 years old ?  A RIP that has a license for one printer only, your next printer model will need a new version.

I think adding profile creation tools to your setup would be a wiser decision. Drive the printer with the Epson driver and use Qimage for image nesting etc. Both additions will survive long after the 9600 goes belly up. And consider whether it isn't time for a new printer with 3 or more monochrome inks + the driver to use them for B&W. Several choices available from different manufacturers.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
Logged

RogerEle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2010, 06:56:28 am »

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Adding an ImagePrint RIP to a 9600 model, 7 years old ?  A RIP that has a license for one printer only, your next printer model will need a new version.

I think adding profile creation tools to your setup would be a wiser decision. Drive the printer with the Epson driver and use Qimage for image nesting etc. Both additions will survive long after the 9600 goes belly up. And consider whether it isn't time for a new printer with 3 or more monochrome inks + the driver to use them for B&W. Several choices available from different manufacturers.

Ernst,

Thank you very much for your feedback!  I did ask Lexjet about having to upgrade ImagePrint if I get a new printer and I was told I could lateral into any printer (i.e. 9900) that was supported in the version of ImagePrint I owned (currently version 8).

You suggest adding profile creation tools instead of purchasing profiles.  It is doable, but I am trying to be as not techie as possible so that I can concentrate on the business instead of tweaking.  If there are tools/software combinations that are plug and play with excellent quality without taking a course in color or extensive tweaking I would be interested - I have been testing myself silly and I am about over it. ;-)

I have not been looking at new printers at all, has the quality really improved that much since the 9600?

Thanks!
Roger
Logged

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 09:56:42 am »

Quote from: RogerEle
Ernst,

Thank you very much for your feedback!  I did ask Lexjet about having to upgrade ImagePrint if I get a new printer and I was told I could lateral into any printer (i.e. 9900) that was supported in the version of ImagePrint I owned (currently version 8).

You suggest adding profile creation tools instead of purchasing profiles.  It is doable, but I am trying to be as not techie as possible so that I can concentrate on the business instead of tweaking.  If there are tools/software combinations that are plug and play with excellent quality without taking a course in color or extensive tweaking I would be interested - I have been testing myself silly and I am about over it. ;-)

I have not been looking at new printers at all, has the quality really improved that much since the 9600?

Thanks!
Roger

To start with the last. Today's best wide format printers have excellent B&W, print gloss + matte without ink waste on the change (Epson to a degree), are faster, have calibration (and profile creation) integrated  (Canon and Epson to a degree) and are more frugal on ink use in general. Image quality did improve a lot as a result of better hardware-head designs, inks, extrapolation and weaving software.

RGB-device profile creation is a lot simpler than what RIPs need in CMYK-dervice profiles. Color quality is at the same level.  There are several independent and printer integrated solutions possible.

Someone else may have better information on Imageprint but I got the impression that it covers one printer model only and any change will take money. Not to mention it took a year before a driver appeared for the 9900.  The purchase of Imageprint has been discussed here before:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lo...php/t31914.html


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html








Logged

ssgphoto

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
    • Brooklyn Editions
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 10:06:11 am »

You will not need to upgrade imageprint unless you go to the 64" printer. the license is for one 44" printer.

i have run imageprint for a few years and with all the supplied profiles i have not needed to make profiles for it. Either way its necessary to either spend for a rip or a good profiling system if you really want to be able to get quality output.


Definitely use the matte inks for matte papers, it makes a huge difference. At least with the 9600 there is the "south african" work around to switch the blacks, message me if you aren't familiar.

The new printers are definitely better, and the 9900 will not require an ink switch. but the 9600 makes nice prints but i do recall a fair amount of metamerism when I had that machine.  At this point any new printer will also be several times faster as well which is an added bonus.
Logged

edt

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
    • http://www.etimages.com
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 10:37:11 am »

You definitely need to use mat black ink on mat papers and PK ink on luster....
Logged

RogerEle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 12:33:29 am »

I just ran a test comparing my test images printed on the Ilford Fine Art Matte through the Onyx RIP and the same images printed through ImagePrint on Ilford's Textured Fine Art paper - both with the Photo Black ink - I printed on the Textured Fine Art because I could not find a profile from ImagePrint for the Fine Art Matte with pk ink - and boy is the Fine Art Matte pretty and the Textured NOT - I think I have gotten away with Fine Art Matte on the Onyx because their profile is so good with the pk ink.  I am thinking that most companies don't bother to put the effort into the pk profile with the matte papers because the result is better with the mk ink ...

Ernst, Thank you for your explanations - it has really helped!

ssgphoto and edt, Thank you very much for the feedback!  ssg, regarding 'south african' system, I searched and found instructions for the 7600, I assume the 9600 instructions are the same - Thanks!
Logged

Sven W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 514
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 07:29:12 am »

Strange.....
You're stuck with one paper of choice !

My first large-format printer was the 9600 for 6 years ago, and the only thing that produced real b&w prints was the Piezography-system
or ImagePrint. I picked IP and still use it, now together with 9900 & 11880.

The trick for grayscale with IP is to use one-channel images, "Gray Gamma 2.2"embedded, perceptual rendering and zero shadowpoint compensation.
And of course the right inkset and paperprofile. On matte papers you may tweak the image for better mid-tone contrast,  a work-around that IP now have solved with their DCM-profiles, Dynamic Contrast Matching.

Today we have more solutions for true b&w; Epson ABW, HP Z-models and so on.

/Sven
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 11:22:40 am by Sven W »
Logged
Stockholm, Sweden

RogerEle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2010, 12:45:52 am »

Quote from: Sven W
Strange.....
You're stuck with one paper of choice !

My first large-format printer was the 9600 for 6 years ago, and the only thing that produced real b&w prints was the Piezography-system
or ImagePrint. I picked IP and still use it, now together with 9900 & 11880.

The trick for grayscale with IP is to use one-channel images, "Gray Gamma 2.2"embedded, perceptual rendering and zero shadowpoint compensation.
And of course the right inkset and paperprofile. On matte papers you may tweak the image for better mid-tone contrast,  a work-around that IP now have solved with their DCM-profiles, Dynamic Contrast Matching.

Today we have more solutions for true b&w; Epson ABW, HP Z-models and so on.

/Sven

Actually 3 papers of choice ... Pearl, Matte and Canvas - a whole different paradigm, I know .... and I was thrilled that I could make pretty photos without using a lab!  I did have some color problems that I corrected in Photoshop - that I thought were more digital / camera related and now I discover they are more printing / profile related - but I didn't know that then ...

I do appreciate the input on ImagePrint and black and white, although I am really thinking that I should return ImagePrint.  It does seem that it is becoming, and will become, less and less necessary - it is half the cost of a replacement printer, and I don't mind purchasing paper profiles ... because ... as you can tell .... I won't need a lot of them   Give me a good paper that I can make pretty photos on and I am a happy camper!  It is more about the images for me than the process.

I will be keeping a sharp eye on this forum for printer info so that I am ready to purchase one when the time comes!

Thanks!
Roger
Logged

mmurph

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 506
    • http://
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2010, 06:23:26 pm »

Many photogs have abandonded their RIPs with the newer Epson models. So if the cost Of the RIP is 1/2 the cost of a new printer, you might be better off just buying a 9880/9900 and running that without a RIP. (I did not check prices myself right now.)

With the new baryta papers, a lot of folks have gven up on matte papers completely. I have done that and only run PK ink on my 7600 & 9600 now. I use Epson Premium Luster and Premium Semigloss exclusvely for proofing. I use between 1 and 3 premium baryta papers for final prints (Hahnemuehle Fine Art Baryta for 95% of my work, plus 2 other PK papers for certain niches.). A similar apprach would allow you to get by with just PK ink and a handful of profiles.

You might also consider dedicating a 7600 or 9600 to b&w. If you want minimal technical hassle, the Cone inks ship with a cmplete set of profiles, so that they are pretty much plug and play. There are also DIY solutions that bring the ink cost down to about $200 for a cmplete set of 7 b&w 220 ml carts. A used 7600 in great shape might cost you $500. Or buy a newer machine for color and dedicate the 9600 to b&w.
Logged

RogerEle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 01:55:20 am »

mmurph,

Thank you so much for the insight!  I printed in a darkroom on Indiatone B, then Portriga Rapid and Ektalure, even mixed my own developer from scratch for a special warm tone look, now with digital I feel like a paper virgin.  I have always loved black and white and especially warm tones.  The thought of getting that look again with digital does make me a little giddy ...

I took a look at the Piezography site and it seems that one buys an ink set to match the color one wants, or mixes colors for split toning.  Is it possible to mix colors and be able to print warmer / cooler from the Quadtone RIP?  The idea of installing an inkset and then not being able to have warmer or cooler tone than the installed ink without flushing the lines makes me a little crazy - we are so used to printing with color inks and doing some prints neutral, some warm, some sepia in the yellow direction or brown towards the red hues ...

Thanks again!
Roger
Logged

Eric Myrvaagnes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22814
  • http://myrvaagnes.com
    • http://myrvaagnes.com
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2010, 10:31:21 am »

Quote from: RogerEle
Is it possible to mix colors and be able to print warmer / cooler from the Quadtone RIP?  

Yes. it is. At least on Windows systems, the Quadtone RIP gui lets you mix two different curves (typically one warm and one cool) in whatever proportions you want, even using different proportions for highlights, midtones and shadows. It's very versatile, even using the stock color inksets. On my Epson 2200 I got better B&W prints, with more control over warmth, using QTR than I could manage with ImagePrint, both using the Epson stock inks (two blacks plus colors).


On my recently acquired 3800 I find Epson's Advanced Black and White mode (with Eric Chan's ABW profiles) does as good a job as QTR, so I no longer use Quadtone.

Eric

Logged
-Eric Myrvaagnes (visit my website: http://myrvaagnes.com)

RogerEle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
ImagePrint vs. Photoshop - Epson 9600
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2010, 01:12:59 pm »

Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
Yes. it is. At least on Windows systems, the Quadtone RIP gui lets you mix two different curves (typically one warm and one cool) in whatever proportions you want, even using different proportions for highlights, midtones and shadows. It's very versatile, even using the stock color inksets. On my Epson 2200 I got better B&W prints, with more control over warmth, using QTR than I could manage with ImagePrint, both using the Epson stock inks (two blacks plus colors).


On my recently acquired 3800 I find Epson's Advanced Black and White mode (with Eric Chan's ABW profiles) does as good a job as QTR, so I no longer use Quadtone.

Eric

Thank you Eric,

When I asked about the Quadtone Rip, I had just read the info at the Piezography website and thought it was only for the Piezography inks - I went to the Quadtone website and saw that the RIP can handle different ink sets   I will also scope out the Eric Chan info

I was wondering what kind of range of neutral to warm tones that one could get out of Piezography inks without having to change the inks on a printer - the Piezography website does mention that there is a translucency to the inks so that photos take on the tone of the paper and I am wondering how much of a shift in color you really get by changing papers?

Also implied with the 7 inks is the possibility of mixing the neutral and sepia Piezography inks and the RIP/profile using more of a color or more of a neutral to build the image and thus getting toned or neutral or in between - not getting the whole dynamic range of the ink because some colors would be skipped over for totally neutral or totally toned, but more versatility - is this possible?

Thank you again
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up