Updated inkjet paper database available

[neile]

About a month ago I posted a copy of my inkjet paper database and got a bunch of great feedback. An updated version, with 69 papers included, is now available. Since some people had trouble accesing the spreadsheet from Skydrive a zipped version is attached as well.

Since the previous version I've added the following papers:

Harman Hi Matte Fiber Base
Harman Warmtone Fiber Base Matte
Harman Gloss FB AI
Harman Gloss FB AI Warmtone
Museo Silver Rag
Museo Portfolio Rag

I've also added two columns that show the darkest black and whitest white I can distinguish when looking at the test prints under my Solux bulbs. As far as I can tell those numbers are largely an indication of the quality of the printer profile than anything specific with the paper.

I still have other Museo and Harman papers to add, as well as a series of the Ilford smooth papers, but I haven't done those test prints yet. Eventually...

Enjoy!

[Brian Gilkes]

Thanks for that. Interesting. I think usefulness could be extended with all custom profiles. Using a mix makes the results a bit fuzzy. For example we get a slightly higher DMax on Canson Rag Photographique than Hahnemuhle Photo R. Delta D results do not tell a great deal as the eye readjusts it's contrast  readings to match various ranges. This is also affected by local contrast interfaces which can be altered in editing. You could obtain much useful information  by running custom profiles through ColorThink. Linearity  and colour gamut  are very important . Increased gamut in  darker regions increases visual richness in a print. Even then results on a Canon cannot provide much data of use to an Epson or HP user. The problem is if all this is taken into consideration most eyes would gaze over  with the amount of data. I tend to find clients fall for a particular paper and follow it faithfully like a religion or a football team . They are seldom swayed in their selection by a new paper with wonderful technical attributes no matter how carefully researched.
Cheers,
Brian

[neile]

Thanks for that. Interesting. I think usefulness could be extended with all custom profiles. Using a mix makes the results a bit fuzzy. For example we get a slightly higher DMax on Canson Rag Photographique than Hahnemuhle Photo R. Delta D results do not tell a great deal as the eye readjusts it's contrast readings to match various ranges. This is also affected by local contrast interfaces which can be altered in editing. You could obtain much useful information by running custom profiles through ColorThink. Linearity and colour gamut are very important . Increased gamut in darker regions increases visual richness in a print. Even then results on a Canon cannot provide much data of use to an Epson or HP user. The problem is if all this is taken into consideration most eyes would gaze over with the amount of data. I tend to find clients fall for a particular paper and follow it faithfully like a religion or a football team . They are seldom swayed in their selection by a new paper with wonderful technical attributes no matter how carefully researched.
Cheers,
Brian

All custom profiles is pretty much out of the question, since this is largely for my own entertainment and I rarely have more than two sample sheets of any given paper available. I agree, the DMax numbers aren't hugely useful, but they do provide a general idea of where a paper falls.

If nothing else, the spreadsheet can help people compare papers by texture, tone, and sheen.

Neil

[Neuffy]

Thanks. It's great having this chart.

[loonsailor]

My thanks as well.  The chart is a great tool!

Any chance of an update?  I'd love to see the results on Canson Infinity Baryta.

[neile]

My thanks as well. The chart is a great tool!

Any chance of an update? I'd love to see the results on Canson Infinity Baryta.

I do have an update in the works with a few more papers, but not the Infinity Baryta. I haven't found a sample pack for that yet. Anyone want to send me a spare sheet?

Neil

[Bob Rockefeller]

About a month ago I posted a copy of my inkjet paper database and got a bunch of great feedback. An updated version, with 69 papers included, is now available.

Thanks very much for keeping and sharing this. Its very helpful.

Bob

[Ryan Grayley]

Hahnemuehle Photorag Ultra Smooth contains OBAs.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hahnemuehle Photorag Ultra Smooth contains OBAs.

For some PhotoRag varieties I assumed that they have OBAs but there may be another thing happening too. This is speculative though.

TiO2 is used as a whitening agent in paper and paper coatings. It absorbs UV light but converts most of it in heat so beyond the visible spectrum. It may covert part of the energy gradually over the visible spectrum but not with the bump at the cold side of the spectrum as OBAs usually do. Somewhere in the specs of TiO2 as a whitening agent I did read that it didn't cope well with OBAs. I couldn't understand it till I did read that it absorbs UV light as well so is in competition with OBAs. I have not seen a spectral distribution plot of pure TiO2 so far but I would expect a drop in reflectance below 420 nm and no bump just above it. There's no mention of fluorescence of TiO2, I guess it is only called fluorescence if the energy is converted to visible spectral energy and not if the emission is beyond the visible spectrum.

In my spectral plots of papers the Hahnemuehle Photorag Ultra Smooth curve shows what I would expect of TiO2, while Photorag Bright White has the deeper UV cut + bump of an added Optical Brightener.

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectrumplot/index.php

TiO2 is a stable mineral. OBAs are more like dyes and so fade prone. Unlike TiO2, Baryta doesn't absorb UV and will not be in competition with UV absorbing OBAs. A more effective combination is possible then. There is a wider scope of whitening agents and blends of them are often used for techical or economic reasons so it will be more complex than sketched here.

Speculative, so I would like to read what may not be correct in my assumption.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[Alan Goldhammer]

For some PhotoRag varieties I assumed that they have OBAs but there may be another thing happening too. This is speculative though.

TiO2 is used as a whitening agent in paper and paper coatings. It absorbs UV light but converts most of it in heat so beyond the visible spectrum. It may covert part of the energy gradually over the visible spectrum but not with the bump at the cold side of the spectrum as OBAs usually do. Somewhere in the specs of TiO2 as a whitening agent I did read that it didn't cope well with OBAs. I couldn't understand it till I did read that it absorbs UV light as well so is in competition with OBAs. I have not seen a spectral distribution plot of pure TiO2 so far but I would expect a drop in reflectance below 420 nm and no bump just above it. There's no mention of fluorescence of TiO2, I guess it is only called fluorescence if the energy is converted to visible spectral energy and not if the emission is beyond the visible spectrum.

In my spectral plots of papers the Hahnemuehle Photorag Ultra Smooth curve shows what I would expect of TiO2, while Photorag Bright White has the deeper UV cut + bump of an added Optical Brightener.

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectrumplot/index.php

TiO2 is a stable mineral. OBAs are more like dyes and so fade prone. Unlike TiO2, Baryta doesn't absorb UV and will not be in competition with UV absorbing OBAs. A more effective combination is possible then. There is a wider scope of whitening agents and blends of them are often used for techical or economic reasons so it will be more complex than sketched here.

Speculative, so I would like to read what may not be correct in my assumption.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Ernst,

It's been a lot of years since I finished my chemistry studies at the university but I don't think your hypothesis above is quite correct.  Both Titanium dioxide and Baryta are inorganic materials and differ from the organic dyes that are used as OBAs.  The mechanism of fluorescence is quite different from what one would observe with these pigments.  Light is absorbed at one wavelength by the dye and emitted at a higher wavelength.  The inorganic salts cannot be excited in the same manner.  The dyes usually show a large peak and then drop off to a more stable emission when you do the spectral analysis.  I looked at your data and you can see this clearly with the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Bright White.  I've seen data with Epson Exhibtion Fiber which has an even larger peak.  This is not nearly as observable with the Photo Rag Ultra Smooth and is totally absent with Bamboo (as one would expect).

I know that there is a price differential between TiO2 and baryta but don't know if that is the primary reason for the latter's use in our papers.  Whether TiO2 interferes in some manner with added OBAs is unclear.  I'll see if I can find something more definitive.  I do think it would be better if the paper manufacturers were more honest about the use of OBAs.

Alan

[Ernst Dinkla]

Alan,

So far I do not see much in contradiction to what I have written.
There's a Wiki on TiO2 where the UV absorption and heat conversion is mentioned.

"This pigment is used extensively in plastics and other applications for its UV resistant properties where it acts as a UV absorber, efficiently transforming destructive UV light energy into heat.

Titanium dioxide is found in almost every sunscreen with a physical blocker because of its high refractive index, its strong UV light absorbing capabilities and its resistance to discolouration under ultraviolet light. This advantage enhances its stability and ability to protect the skin from ultraviolet light. Sunscreens designed for infants or people with sensitive skin are often based on titanium dioxide and/or zinc oxide, as these mineral UV blockers are believed to cause less skin irritation than chemical UV absorber ingredients."



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[neile]

Hahnemuehle Photorag Ultra Smooth contains OBAs.

Thanks for catching that, Ionaca. I go off the manufacturer's published information for the OBA column, and rechecking the Hahnemuhle I see they list Photorag Ultra Smooth as having "moderate" OBAs.

neil

[Alan Goldhammer]

Alan,

So far I do not see much in contradiction to what I have written.
There's a Wiki on TiO2 where the UV absorption and heat conversion is mentioned.

"This pigment is used extensively in plastics and other applications for its UV resistant properties where it acts as a UV absorber, efficiently transforming destructive UV light energy into heat.

Titanium dioxide is found in almost every sunscreen with a physical blocker because of its high refractive index, its strong UV light absorbing capabilities and its resistance to discolouration under ultraviolet light. This advantage enhances its stability and ability to protect the skin from ultraviolet light. Sunscreens designed for infants or people with sensitive skin are often based on titanium dioxide and/or zinc oxide, as these mineral UV blockers are believed to cause less skin irritation than chemical UV absorber ingredients."



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

The amount of heat that is generated is negligible for our purposes.  Years ago before the advent of "modern" sunscreens we routinely used zinc oxide ointment on our nose and lower lip to avoid sunburn when surfing (I grew up in southern California).  It (as well as TiO2) is a physical block against the sun's rays as opposed to the aromatic compounds such as para-amino benzoic acid that absorb UV-B rays and prevent skin damage that way.  The aromatic compounds can cause skin allergies which is why they are less commonly used these days.  Presumably the UV acrylic glazing that is recommended for framing contains such organic compounds that absorb those rays.  My only point above is that TiO2 does not fluoresce.  I'm still curious why it is not more commonly used in inkjet papers.

Alan

[Ernst Dinkla]

My only point above is that TiO2 does not fluoresce.  I'm still curious why it is not more commonly used in inkjet papers.

Alan

Right, that is what I wrote as well, no emission in the visible spectrum. And it is used in inkjet papers. And I'm curious whether we see in the spectral curve of Photorag Ultra Smooth a mild use of OBA or TiO2 whitening agent.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[Alan Goldhammer]

Right, that is what I wrote as well, no emission in the visible spectrum. And it is used in inkjet papers. And I'm curious whether we see in the spectral curve of Photorag Ultra Smooth a mild use of OBA or TiO2 whitening agent.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Laslo Pusztai has a similar comparator on his site here.  It looks like his results are quite similar to yours.  I think in the case of the Photorag Ultra Smooth the OBA effect is minimal compared to some of the other papers where it is more pronounced.  It's always been a thorny issues and one reason why I'm printing more on Museo papers these days (no OBAs).

[Ryan Grayley]

Right, that is what I wrote as well, no emission in the visible spectrum. And it is used in inkjet papers. And I'm curious whether we see in the spectral curve of Photorag Ultra Smooth a mild use of OBA or TiO2 whitening agent.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

This statement was sent to me by Hahnemuehle back in 2008.

"With your question regarding the content of OBAs, we can tell you that the amount used is very similar for both [Photorag and Photorag Ultra Smooth] products (unfortunately, we can not give you a percentage amount).  Due to a variety of technical influences the Photo Rag Ultra Smooth might appear slightly more white (this is not due to the amount of OBA)."

[Alan Goldhammer]

This statement was sent to me by Hahnemuehle back in 2008.

"With your question regarding the content of OBAs, we can tell you that the amount used is very similar for both [Photorag and Photorag Ultra Smooth] products (unfortunately, we can not give you a percentage amount).  Due to a variety of technical influences the Photo Rag Ultra Smooth might appear slightly more white (this is not due to the amount of OBA)."

Thanks for this.  I think this confirms what I see from the spectral data.  One would expect to see a large absorbence below 420 nm if there is significant OBA present (I always use the Epson Exhibition Fiber or 'Traditional Photo' as it is called in Europe as the benchmark here).  There is some OBA present but not as much as in other papers.

[Ernst Dinkla]

This statement was sent to me by Hahnemuehle back in 2008.

"With your question regarding the content of OBAs, we can tell you that the amount used is very similar for both [Photorag and Photorag Ultra Smooth] products (unfortunately, we can not give you a percentage amount).  Due to a variety of technical influences the Photo Rag Ultra Smooth might appear slightly more white (this is not due to the amount of OBA)."

Right, a small amount of OBA can be used to bring the white reflectance between batches at the same level. That has been mentioned before in discussion like this one. But I don't think the UV cut below 420nm is explained by the use of OBA alone.

The Photo Rag Ultra Smooth is probably a bit satinised (cold or hot pressed) and that explains the higher reflectance. It explaines the slightly lower weight too. I observed that in the measurements. Another explanation could be smaller coating particles than used in the plain Photo Rag but it is much more likely the same Photo Rag just pressed between cilinders after coating.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[Alan Goldhammer]

Right, a small amount of OBA can be used to bring the white reflectance between batches at the same level. That has been mentioned before in discussion like this one. But I don't think the UV cut below 420nm is explained by the use of OBA alone.

The Photo Rag Ultra Smooth is probably a bit satinised (cold or hot pressed) and that explains the higher reflectance. It explaines the slightly lower weight too. I observed that in the measurements. Another explanation could be smaller coating particles than used in the plain Photo Rag but it is much more likely the same Photo Rag just pressed between cilinders after coating.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

It can be.  If you go to Laszlo's site and do a comparison between the two Moab papers you see something quite dramatic (in fact this may be the most dramatic difference).  The Bright White has significant OBA whereas the Natural has none.  You see the drop off under 420 from the absorption of light leading by the OBA.  That absorbed light can not be reflected so this is why you see the drop off in reflectance.  the big bump you see at 440nm is a result of the emission of the fluorescence for this particular OBA.  Photo Rag Ultra Smooth is no where near that dramatic.  You could be correct about the pressing to get Ultra Smooth.  If it lost some moisture as a result one would expect a slightly lower weight.

Pretty fascinating stuff and I always knew that my PhD in chemistry would come in handy one day!!