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Author Topic: Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800  (Read 4152 times)

Bill Koenig

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When printing with sheets cut from a 17 inch roll of lford Gold Fiber Silk on my Epson 3800. First, I let the sheet flatten out before printing, I set thickness to 4 gap to wide, but the last inch must be warping from the ink load and is fuzzy and I'm also getting head strikes, ruining the print.
I remember reading about a fix to this problem on this site a while ago. Something about spraying a very light mist of water on the back of the paper to get it to curl the other way before printing.
If anyone remembers that thread and could give me a link, I'd very much appreciate it.
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Ken Bennett

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 05:08:13 pm »

A solution would be to cut the paper a couple of inches too long, and trim after printing. Not elegant, perhaps, but functional.
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Bill Koenig

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 05:18:54 pm »

That's good idea, and I will give it a try.
I also have noticed scratches on the length of the paper as well.My problem here is the fact that its a night scene and the printer is laying down a lot of ink which is causing the paper to warp, hitting the top which I'm pretty sure is scratching the print.
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Bill Koenig,

neile

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 11:01:10 pm »

Bill,

I print on a Canon but sometimes have problems with severe paper curl as well (with Ilford GFS and Hahnemuhle FA Baryta). You say you "let the sheet flatten out", but have you tried reverse-rolling it prior to printing? I've had success carefully reverse rolling it in some kraft paper prior to printing to try and get a very flat sheet out of it.

Neil
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Wayne Fox

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2010, 01:26:55 am »

Quote from: Bill Koenig
That's good idea, and I will give it a try.
I also have noticed scratches on the length of the paper as well.My problem here is the fact that its a night scene and the printer is laying down a lot of ink which is causing the paper to warp, hitting the top which I'm pretty sure is scratching the print.


You might try slowing the printer down.  In the Paper Configuration menu you can add some time to each head pass to allow the ink to dry a little more before the paper moves.  Slows things down, but it might help.
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colourperfect

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2010, 06:32:38 am »

I have a similar problem with the 3880 and A2 sheets of Ilford Gold Fibre. Dont think its striking the head but I get the fuzzy print. The paper came as cut sheets.....

Thanks
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Conner999

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2010, 07:58:02 am »

Love GFS, but on my 3800 larger (factory) cut-sheets don't suffer from curl but get scratched so regularly that I simply gave up using it. Smaller (letter size) no issue, but larger sheets will warp under ink load contacting any number of 101 sharp bits inside the printer. You can actually see the warping or 'gull wing' or 'M'-shape distortion take effect if you watch the leading edge of the paper as it goes thru the print area. NO (and I mean NONE) combination of driver settings - or wetting back of paper helped. I even removed the pizza wheels - only modest improvement in scratch count.  Great printer for matte, but for PK papers I'll stick with a vacuum-assist unit from now on.
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JohnBrew

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2010, 09:15:15 am »

Haven't used GFS in the largest size yet, but had no trouble with Harman Gloss FB Al in the 17 x 25 size and the Harman is much more prone to scratching, denting, etc. than any other paper I've used. I went to GFS for 11 x 14 and 13 x 17 because I had so many problems with Harman in those sizes. Strange that the larger size Harman is more trouble free than the smaller ones!

Alan Goldhammer

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2010, 09:48:39 am »

One thing I've observed with 13x19 paper (both Epson Exhibition Fiber and Ilford Gold Fibre and to a lesser degree with matte papers) is that it has to be stored flat.  I routinely was standing the package on the long end next to the printer and after the first five or so sheets were used out of the box there was enough free space to prompt paper curl.  I would need to reverse curl to paper to avoid head strikes on the end as noted above.  Once I started storing the paper flat, the problem went a way.  This does not happen with letter size papers.
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Conner999

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 11:04:00 am »

I only referenced GFS in my above post, but (the more delicate) FB AL was even worse. Smaller GFS or FB AL (awesome paper for B&W) no worries.

I think the larger-width sheets simply have more latitude to distort when under ink. From what I've seen it does seem to vary by printer copy + and printing circumstance. Like any mechanical device working with tight tolerances, it doesn't take much copy-to-copy variation to allow a paper that won't remain flat under ink to contact something it shouldn't with some units. There are also no shortage of bits in the paper path at the ink and post-ink stages of the 3800 that will happily scratch the surface of a delicate, wet, ink-laden paper.
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AaronPhotog

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 12:51:23 pm »

Quote from: Conner999
I only referenced GFS in my above post, but (the more delicate) FB AL was even worse. Smaller GFS or FB AL (awesome paper for B&W) no worries.

I think the larger-width sheets simply have more latitude to distort when under ink. From what I've seen it does seem to vary by printer copy + and printing circumstance. Like any mechanical device working with tight tolerances, it doesn't take much copy-to-copy variation to allow a paper that won't remain flat under ink to contact something it shouldn't with some units. There are also no shortage of bits in the paper path at the ink and post-ink stages of the 3800 that will happily scratch the surface of a delicate, wet, ink-laden paper.

The grain runs in the opposite direction with FB Al large sheets than it does on the smaller sizes.  It may be the same with GFS.  I'm the guy who wrote the posts on spraying the backs of the 17x25 sheets of FB Al.  I have an Epson 3800, and I'll agree that part of the problem is with the printer construction.  It's a great printer, that I call my GPH ("Great Printer from Hell").  The new 3880 that a friend of mine has is somewhat better, not prone to scratching in the long direction, but still prone to head strikes at the corners if the paper isn't flattened first before going into the printer.

I've found that the best way to store any paper is so that it is horizontal with the backs of the sheets up.  That way, when you pull out the "top" (formerly bottom) sheet in the stack, it won't scratch the sheet below, even if the corner drags as you pull it out, because it's dragging against the back of the next sheet (before adopting this storage procedure, that was another problem).  The upside-down sheets seem to lay a little flatter, too.

With my printing procedure, I place the sheet face-down on a clean, smooth surface, bend the sheet edges, one edge at a time, gently toward the opposite edge and then manually "de-curl" the edges, regardless of the size, brand, or type.  I do the bending by hand, being careful not to bend it so much that the surface will kink or crackle (which the Harman will do at the drop of a hat).  Once it will lay dead flat upside-down on my Foam-core drying board, I gently spray the back of the paper with a little sprayer that you can hold in one hand.  I smooth the water out by gently dragging a folded piece of paper towel across the sheet from end to end and side to side, until there is an even, streak-free distribution without gaps, making a very thin film of water.  I'm careful not to let the sheet shift around while I do this, so as to avoid wetting the front surface.

Then, I go do something else, such as setting up the print in my favorite printing program (not Lightroom or Photoshop).  The sheet will curl downwards on the edges and will lift in the curled areas almost an inch off the board.  Once it has settled back down such that the edges have no more than about a quarter of an inch of curl along the long edges, I gently pick it up by a short edge and load it into the 3800.  Using the sheet feeder, and making sure that the paper is sitting straight as possible against the back of the feeder at the leading edge I then hit the rectangular "advance" button on the printer.  The paper advances to the starting position and stops.  At this point, I go finish my settings for the print, taking my time to let the paper dry a little more.  For the Harman FB Al, I use thickness and platen gap settings of 5 and Wide.  Then, I hit "Print."  

The slight amount of moisture in the back counters the tendency for the ink to curl the paper the opposite way from the front (the "seagull wing" shape described in an above post).  After adopting this procedure, the persistant problem I had been having with scratches in the long direction on 17"x25" Harman FB Al completely stopped.  No more scratches, and no head strikes.

With the Harman paper, it still is somewhat delicate until the pigment has been allowed to dry for a couple of weeks or more face up in the drying rack.  The pigment ink particles are encapsulated in a sort of resin that, itself, is prone to scratching until it really hardens.  Once it does so, it partly protects the paper from it's own tendency to scratch.

With your climate, which may be more or less humid than mine, you may have to make adjustments.  I believe that the paper may have been made in a climate that is cooler than where I live.  Though the manufacturer brags of a construction that resists curling, I've found that a sudden increase in humidity, as during a rainstorm, will curl the Harman papers of any size a lot.  A small strip of the paper can be used to test that in your area.  In one instance, a 6" long by 1" wide piece that I used to test the curl, bent on its own into a complete circle (with the front surface of the paper inside the circle) during a brief rainstorm here that briefly raised the humidity, and gradually flattened back out on its own after the rain stopped.

The Harman Gloss Al isn't perfect, but it's still my favorite glossy paper to date for it's smooth response, detail, and surface that's just slightly glossier than a good air dried glossy silver print.  If I could advise Harman, I'd say to get ahold of some good silver print paper, like Oriental, Brilliant, or the like, and emulate the texture of that (Epson Exhibition takes the surface texture a bit too far for my taste).  Then, really don't just "say" that you have beefed up the boxes, make it happen!  The Hahnemuhle boxes are much better, far less prone to bending and crushing at the corners.  I've had a lot of the large Harman paper arrive with dinged corners from most of the major US vendors.  That gets costly.  I'd rather pay for better packaging of the paper at the factory than totally rely on the vendor to bullet-proof the shipping box, though I'll insist on that, too.  Also, the plastic sheet around the paper looks smooth, but almost always slightly abrades the surface of the top sheet in transit, ruining one sheet per box.

Good Luck, Happy New Year, and Aloha,
Aaron
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 02:20:04 pm by AaronPhotog »
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Aaron Dygart,
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Conner999

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2010, 05:15:30 pm »

Aaron

Excellent post - great info. The grain direction change on larger sheets would explain part of the issue.  The issue doesn't seem effected by seasonal humidity. Personally think is a combination of variables: printer sample variation, ink load/print, paper flatness out of box (agree, Harman packaging sucks) - and Gremlins ;<

Yeah, the 3800 is a love-hate situation. Lot to love, not much to dislike, but the few issues (actually really only one for me) it CAN have (again, depends on copy) can make/break the printing experience with PK. The rear sheet feed has the odd brain-fart requiring a re-feed, but no biggie. Clean up the printer path on the 3800 (amazing the jungle of nasty bits a print, even a flat one, JUST clears or has to come in contact with during the printing process), add a vacuum hold-down system and the beast would be the perfect sheet-feed (17") printer. Interesting on the 3880, but think my next unit will be a 48xx or larger with vacuum hold-down.  

One paper I've yet to try in larger sizes is EEF. Gave up with PK in disgust after awhile. Think I have some larger EEF sample sheets. Compared to 8.5x11 samples I've printed, I like it -- but still prefer FBAL; but that said, there comes a point where the #$%^& PITA of FB AL or GFS just isn't worth it - despite the great papers they are.

Anyway, have already helped side-track the OP's curling issue post too much already...

Cheers
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 05:19:28 pm by Conner999 »
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Bill Koenig

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2010, 09:27:41 pm »

Thanks Aaron,

Ok, I added 2 inches to the overall length of the IGFS so were now at 17x27 I then reversed rolled it on a roll of Kraft paper, this flattened it pretty good, but the ends needed a little extra which I did carefully by hand. I then set the paper on a piece of foam core back side up and sprayed a fine mist of water about 4 ft above the paper and spread it out as you instructed, it took a lot more water to get it even than I would have thought it would have.
All I can say is that it worked quite well, the paper that exited the printer first was FLAT, on my last try that same edge was very warped in sort of a M shape.
There were a couple of very faint lines visible in the dark sky that won't be a problem once its under glass, nothing like had before, and no head strikes, thickness set to 5, gap set to wide. Don't forget that this was a night scene, there was a lot of black ink laid down from end to end.
Leaving the extra 2 inches on the end I think really saved me, as just before it finished printing I heard a snap, which I think was the paper coming off the rollers, but it had already finished printing.
Next time I will be much more aggressive with the spray bottle moving faster to get a even spread.
Now if I could only get this paper in 25x17 cut sheets.
Thanks everyone for the reply's.

Bill.

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Bill Koenig,

Conner999

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 07:19:07 am »

Looks like Aaron's advice might be a doable work-around for you. That 'M'-shaped distortion of the paper exiting the print path is it's reacting to ink lay-down.  

If the paper is pre-flattened, there is the option of using front feed with a packing substrate (see Eric Chan's site).  Unfortunately if the paper isn't laying flat on the chosen substrate, the simple act of inserting it thru the front feed slot can cause it to contact parts of the printer path and scratch before being inked.

Best of luck
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etrexler

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2010, 10:22:17 am »

I've had the same problem and addressed it by storing the paper upside down (flat) prior to use, and going into advanced media settings of the Epson driver and doing the following.

Lengthen the drying time to +50, increasing the paper thickness to 5 or 6, and finally changing the platen gap to Wider.  This seems to work consistently for me with Crane Silver Museo and Ilford Galerie among many.


Eric
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AaronPhotog

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2010, 12:42:02 pm »

Yes, that should work for many papers out there.  It doesn't appear to work for most of the "baryta" papers, like Harman's FB Al, though, on my 3800.  Because of their multi-layer construction, they tend to react more to the moisture of the ink.  As a disclaimer, though, I had tried adjusting the drying times and found that they had no effect whatsoever on my printer.  That is, the machine doesn't take any longer between passes, no matter what the setting.  That's just my machine, the GPH.  I would think that the faster speed of the new 3880 may actually get the warped paper out of the platen before the warp gets bad enough to cause a scratch.  My friend with the 3880 has no problems with longitudinal scratches, unless he produces them himself outside of the printer.

Another post somewhere in this forum revealed that the platen gap settings and thickness settings both only affect the platen gap.  Why don't they have just one setting or the other if that's the case?  Anyone know?

Aloha,
Aaron
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Conner999

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Ilford Gold Fiber Silk 17x25, problems with ends curling on my 3800
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2010, 06:05:57 pm »

On my 3800 I tired increasing the drying time and normally print at wider and one 'stop' wider (e.g. if 4 is recommended, I'll typically do 5, etc). No difference in print quality, no notable difference in print time -- and no difference in print-path scratch abatement either.  I suspect the fact that some settings work for some folks and not others will come, at least in part, to the difference in spec between machines.

I would agree with Aaron on drying time - my preference would be to get the paper thru the print path as quickly as possible - before it has time to react and distort and start contacting things it shouldn't - and arguably shouldn't be there - especially as paper suppliers (including Epson) strive to recreate darkroom paper aesthetics.

Part of the issue is that after an area of a sheet has had sufficient ink laid down (my scratches on PK normally start a couple on inches from the leading edge of the sheet), the paper that has just passed the print head starts to distort but since the sheet is still held in the print path, the high points of the distorted area just fwd of the head have no where to go.

Delicate paper coatings, reactive (distortion-prone) papers, small tolerances, poor paper boxing, wet ink and bits of metal and plastic (some of which literally JUST ride along the top of even a flat inked sheet on the 3800), no matter how 'smooth' to the touch, don't mix well.  Make FA Baryta papers that won't distort - be it thru design, increased thickness, stiffer substrate or what-have-you and you could put razor blades along the roof of the print path for all care. Until then clean up the print path and put vacuum on ALL your 'pro' machines - I'll happily pay for it. GPH indeed.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 06:07:56 pm by Conner999 »
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