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teddillard

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MFDB vs 35mm DSLR quick samples
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2010, 10:23:17 am »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Ray don't take my comments personal really not meant to be but these topics are boring as hell and make absolutely no sense unless someone is trying to justify there expensive systems in there head. Which 9 times out of 10 is the reason. I gave up on all that buy reasonable than forget about it WHY you bought it , just go shoot with it.

well I for one am glad you didn't delete your post...  

I'd only say that for people who are trying to make the decision to use, not even buy, but use, these systems, this kind of discussion does seem to be appreciated.  Only when it doesn't turn into a "my dog is better than your dog" discussion, though, which it often does...
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Ted Dillard

Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2010, 10:34:40 am »

Quote from: teddillard
well I for one am glad you didn't delete your post...  

I'd only say that for people who are trying to make the decision to use, not even buy, but use, these systems, this kind of discussion does seem to be appreciated.  Only when it doesn't turn into a "my dog is better than your dog" discussion, though, which it often does...


I agree Ted why and what situations are the questions that should be asked not the my dog is better than your dog which these always without fail turn into. Frankly as a workshop owner, instructor, working pro and forum owner if these type of questions that don't get into that makes my life a blessing because i am always willing to help people make rational decisions on there purchases and I hate the e-mails that say oh shit I just spent 40k and made a big mistake. My heart falls to the ground when I get those and I get them a lot. Rather people be well informed and make great decisions out of the gate for sure.
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fredjeang

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MFDB vs 35mm DSLR quick samples
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2010, 12:04:42 pm »

I think Guy and also Ted pointed right.
It is time to overcome the debate "who's the best beast" between FF and MFD.
These are 2 different animals. Each one has is strength.
To me, FF has
better portability,
better for low-light very high iso
and video.
but in terms of versatility-flexibility, it all depends what we understand by that.
There is no more flexible than a MFD back.
In controled situation MFD is by far more powerfull.

But as Michael pointed several times here, you need a very good tech in order to take advantage of MFD and being able to see the difference.
In other words, if I use an Hasselblad or a Nikon D3, you won't see the difference...because I do not have today enough technical skill and knowledge to exploit all the potential of MFD. That is why we see sometimes surprising test results.
But if Javier Vallhonrat uses an Hasselblad, I garantee you will see a huge difference.

Michael has been sharp clear about that fact, a minimal error or lack of serious technique with MFD is transforming your potential image into a normal FF 35mm...
and I trust him.

Fred.
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teddillard

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MFDB vs 35mm DSLR quick samples
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2010, 12:24:43 pm »

I always remember hanging out at the local cabinetmaker's shop when I was a kid- these guys taking a break, starting to argue about which was a better tool- the table saw or the radial arm saw...  the boss finally stood up, brushed himself off and said, stop your yabbering, ya bums, and get back in there and make me some money!  

 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 12:25:00 pm by teddillard »
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Ted Dillard

rsmphoto

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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2010, 12:59:30 pm »

Quote from: teddillard
I always remember hanging out at the local cabinetmaker's shop when I was a kid- these guys taking a break, starting to argue about which was a better tool- the table saw or the radial arm saw...  the boss finally stood up, brushed himself off and said, stop your yabbering, ya bums, and get back in there and make me some money!  

 

oh, it's definitely the table saw Ted...  

Nice work on the tests.

Rick
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2010, 01:10:58 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
I think Guy and also Ted pointed right.
It is time to overcome the debate "who's the best beast" between FF and MFD.
These are 2 different animals. Each one has is strength.
To me, FF has
better portability,
better for low-light very high iso
and video.
but in terms of versatility-flexibility, it all depends what we understand by that.
There is no more flexible than a MFD back.
In controled situation MFD is by far more powerfull.

But as Michael pointed several times here, you need a very good tech in order to take advantage of MFD and being able to see the difference.
In other words, if I use an Hasselblad or a Nikon D3, you won't see the difference...because I do not have today enough technical skill and knowledge to exploit all the potential of MFD. That is why we see sometimes surprising test results.
But if Javier Vallhonrat uses an Hasselblad, I garantee you will see a huge difference.

Michael has been sharp clear about that fact, a minimal error or lack of serious technique with MFD is transforming your potential image into a normal FF 35mm...
and I trust him.

Fred.

A lot comes from post production and obviously lighting and great techniques but being very proficient with raw processing is a must to draw the absolute best from these backs. Totally agree this is a package system and to gain the most from it it has to work together just like any great car out there. My BMW is knocking because it got some bad fuel in it and my wife is bitching about it. Great analogy if you ask me. Garbage in garbage out
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uaiomex

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MFDB vs 35mm DSLR quick samples
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2010, 01:16:52 pm »

I would like to add the same occurs within any format. Years ago I read in a photo magazine that one of the reasons 120 film pictures looked superior to 35mm was the care involved with MF camera shooting. The advice was "shoot your 35mm camera as you do with your MF camera". I followed this advice. My 35 Velvia slides improved in quality. You know the works: tripod, careful composition, acurate focus, check dof, MLU, etc., re-ckeck, etc.
Of course, nowadays I "treat" my 5DII as it was an RZ67. My 5DII thinks is a RZ67  
Best, Eduardo


 
Quote from: fredjeang
you need a very good tech in order to take advantage of MFD[/u] and being able to see the difference.
In other words, if I use an Hasselblad or a Nikon D3, you won't see the difference...because I do not have today enough technical skill and knowledge to exploit all the potential of MFD. That is why we see sometimes surprising test results.
But if Javier Vallhonrat uses an Hasselblad, I garantee you will see a huge difference.

Michael has been sharp clear about that fact, a minimal error or lack of serious technique with MFD is transforming your potential image into a normal FF 35mm...
and I trust him.

Fred.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 01:22:29 pm by uaiomex »
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teddillard

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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2010, 07:14:09 pm »

Quote from: rsmphoto
oh, it's definitely the table saw Ted...  

Nice work on the tests.

Rick

I wouldn't know.  They won't let me play with power tools (anymore).



Thanks Rick!
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Ted Dillard

Ray

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« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2010, 07:57:15 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I agree Ted why and what situations are the questions that should be asked not the my dog is better than your dog which these always without fail turn into. Frankly as a workshop owner, instructor, working pro and forum owner if these type of questions that don't get into that makes my life a blessing because i am always willing to help people make rational decisions on there purchases and I hate the e-mails that say oh shit I just spent 40k and made a big mistake. My heart falls to the ground when I get those and I get them a lot. Rather people be well informed and make great decisions out of the gate for sure.


Well, I have to say I'm rather surprised at how sensitive some of you guys are. I've already admitted that the larger sensor, by virtue of the fact it gathers more light, will always tend to produce smoother tones and less noise than the smaller sensor. If the larger sensor has more pixels, it will also produce higher resolution than the smaller sensor. That's a given. No need to argue about that.

The principle of using the best camera for the job is a principle I appreciate. I'm reminded of a story from David Bailey who was asked by a client who was particularly impressed with the quality from 4x5 film, if David would use that format for the job he was being offered. Not wishing to engage in complicated discussions as to why 4x5 was not the best tool for the job, and presumably not wishing to risk losing the job to someone else, David agreed, but used 35mm anyway because he knew it was the best tool for the job. The final images that appeared in the client's magazine were all from 35mm. The client was very pleased.

If you are going to make a case that the MFDB system is more flexible than 35mm and allows you to shoot a particular type of scene or job with greater ease or precision than 35mm would allow, then I'm all ears.

Give me some specific examples. If you wish to make the point that you already own hundreds of lenses that fit a number of different camera bodies and that a single DB can be used on all those camera bodies, thus giving you access to all those lenses, then that's fine. I understand that. It's a bit like someone who prefers Nikon because he has accummulated lots of Nikon lenses over the years that still fit a modern Nikon DSLR even though some of the auto features might not work.

Ultimately, the technical quality of the result is dependent upon the lens at one end and the sensor at the other end. What's in between is just stuff to hold the lens and sensor in place.

Perhaps you could make a point that the 'tilt, shift and swing' options of some technical cameras are more flexible than the limited movements of the Canon TS-E lenses?
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Nick-T

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« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2010, 08:27:18 pm »

Quote from: Ray
If you wish to make the point .....

Ray
What exactly is YOUR point? You drop into this forum (a forum where people by and large wish to talk about medium format) once every few months, and tell a bunch of people who make a living with medium format that they are "sensitive".
A more unkind person than I would call you a troll.
I am thrilled that you are happy with the DR of your 5D and whatever else you have gleaned from the graphs at DXO, but would you be kind enough to take your drum and bang it elsewhere.
Thanks ever so much.
Nick-T
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teddillard

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« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2010, 08:27:36 pm »

Thanks for the considered response...  I'm afraid I still don't quite understand what you're getting at, though.

Quote from: Ray
Well, I have to say I'm rather surprised at how sensitive some of you guys are. I've already admitted that the larger sensor, by virtue of the fact it gathers more light, will always tend to produce smoother tones and less noise than the smaller sensor. If the larger sensor has more pixels, it will also produce higher resolution than the smaller sensor. That's a given. No need to argue about that.

The principle of using the best camera for the job is a principle I appreciate. I'm reminded of a story from David Bailey who was asked by a client who was particularly impressed with the quality from 4x5 film, if David would use that format for the job he was being offered. Not wishing to engage in complicated discussions as to why 4x5 was not the best tool for the job, and presumably not wishing to risk losing the job to someone else, David agreed, but used 35mm anyway because he knew it was the best tool for the job. The final images that appeared in the client's magazine were all from 35mm. The client was very pleased.

If you are going to make a case that the MFDB system is more flexible than 35mm and allows you to shoot a particular type of scene or job with greater ease or precision than 35mm would allow, then I'm all ears.

Give me some specific examples. If you wish to make the point that you already own hundreds of lenses that fit a number of different camera bodies and that a single DB can be used on all those camera bodies, thus giving you access to all those lenses, then that's fine. I understand that. It's a bit like someone who prefers Nikon because he has accummulated lots of Nikon lenses over the years that still fit a modern Nikon DSLR even though some of the auto features might not work.

Ultimately, the technical quality of the result is dependent upon the lens at one end and the sensor at the other end. What's in between is just stuff to hold the lens and sensor in place.

Perhaps you could make a point that the 'tilt, shift and swing' options of some technical cameras are more flexible than the limited movements of the Canon TS-E lenses?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 08:28:39 pm by teddillard »
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Ted Dillard

Guy Mancuso

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MFDB vs 35mm DSLR quick samples
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2010, 08:48:50 pm »

Quote from: Nick-T
Ray
What exactly is YOUR point? You drop into this forum (a forum where people by and large wish to talk about medium format) once every few months, and tell a bunch of people who make a living with medium format that they are "sensitive".
A more unkind person than I would call you a troll.
I am thrilled that you are happy with the DR of your 5D and whatever else you have gleaned from the graphs at DXO, but would you be kind enough to take your drum and bang it elsewhere.
Thanks ever so much.
Nick-T


Sorry Ray but I have to agree here.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 08:50:12 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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Ray

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« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2010, 08:59:33 pm »

Quote from: Nick-T
Ray
What exactly is YOUR point? You drop into this forum (a forum where people by and large wish to talk about medium format) once every few months, and tell a bunch of people who make a living with medium format that they are "sensitive".
A more unkind person than I would call you a troll.
I am thrilled that you are happy with the DR of your 5D and whatever else you have gleaned from the graphs at DXO, but would you be kind enough to take your drum and bang it elsewhere.
Thanks ever so much.
Nick-T
 

You seem confused. It's not me who's banging a drum, but you.

I ask for some specific examples of how the use of an MFDB system will produce better results because of its greater flexibility (rather than its greater resolution and smoother tonality), and all I get is a lot of drum banging and boasting about how many different camera bodies a DB can be attached to.
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AlexM

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MFDB vs 35mm DSLR quick samples
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2010, 09:57:16 pm »

Quote from: Ray
You seem confused. It's not me who's banging a drum, but you.

I ask for some specific examples of how the use of an MFDB system will produce better results because of its greater flexibility (rather than its greater resolution and smoother tonality), and all I get is a lot of drum banging and boasting about how many different camera bodies a DB can be attached to.

Ray,
You just don't sound like you are interested in listening to answers.
If you are 100% sure that 35mm is better than why are you here on the first place?

Alex

Ray

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« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2010, 10:51:23 pm »

Quote from: Oleksiy
Ray,
You just don't sound like you are interested in listening to answers.
If you are 100% sure that 35mm is better than why are you here on the first place?

Alex


Where did I write I was 100% sure that 35mm is better than MFDB. Try reading my comments in this thread. I've already stated that larger sensors tend to have better tonality and higher resolution than smaller sensors. Did you miss that?

They also tend to have higher dynamic range, although there are exceptions such as the Nikon D3X which appears to have higher DR than even the P65+, at same print sizes.

I'm very interested in answers, but real answers, not waffle and drum banging.

I'm genuinely interested in the specifics of any particular shoot which could be handled more easily, more efficiently, more precisely and with greater control to achieve the desired result, through use of MFDB equipment as opposed to 35mm equipment.
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pcunite

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« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2010, 11:25:19 pm »

When it comes to 35 vs. MFD comparisons if you take the cost and time metrics out of the discussion it is MFD all the way. I think we all know and understand that. Current Nikon/Canon 35mm offerings are good enough for all but the most persnickety of customers. I think we all understand that. The fact that we are still talking about this when the facts have proven over and over that commercially you can go with either system can only mean one thing. People are emotionally invested in their decisions and purchases and logic is not needed anymore.

If you say you need to use MFD then I believe you and so do your customers who listen to you. If you say you need to use 35mm then I believe you and so do your customers...
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uaiomex

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« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2010, 11:58:36 pm »

Beforehand I'm going to say it again: I'm the first to say that I usually can tell the superiority of MF files over FF dlsr's right on the net. Here in this forum I've read numerous posts from MF users practically trashing 35 dlsr's results. D35 is amazing, practical and unexpensive (all with very). Some MF users are so sensitive!- Jeeeezuz!


 
Quote from: pcunite
When it comes to 35 vs. MFD comparisons if you take the cost and time metrics out of the discussion it is MFD all the way. I think we all know and understand that. Current Nikon/Canon 35mm offerings are good enough for all but the most persnickety of customers. I think we all understand that. The fact that we are still talking about this when the facts have proven over and over that commercially you can go with either system can only mean one thing. People are emotionally invested in their decisions and purchases and logic is not needed anymore.

If you say you need to use MFD then I believe you and so do your customers who listen to you. If you say you need to use 35mm then I believe you and so do your customers...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 12:02:31 am by uaiomex »
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AlexM

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« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2010, 12:03:16 am »

Ok, to put it simple. My idea is that if one doesn't feel that his current equipment, for instance a DSLR, limits technical, creative or commercial qualities of his/her work than that person doesn't really need an upgrade to MFDB. When you start hitting those barriers, whether it's the dynamic range, color quality, resolution, lens quality, viewfinder, sync speed etc. etc., than it would be the time to look into other systems.
No point in arguing if you don't see and feel the benefits of MFDB or if you see but don't need them.

Regards,
Alex

Craig Lamson

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« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2010, 12:07:59 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
I speak daily with agency designers, those who spend their life in front of a computer to make advertisings, catalogues etc... from the pics they receive.
I can tell you that all say that, in preference order:  very happy when they receive drum scanned from LF, in second MFD, and ultimately 35mm FF.
They all regret that LF is less and less used.

Fred.


Sheesh!  I read this post about drum scanned LF film and had a nightmare last night thinking I was shooting film again!  Woke up in a cold sweat!

No more film.  Ever.  Please.  No matter how homesick I get for my 503's and Horsemans.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 12:08:22 am by infocusinc »
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TMARK

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« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2010, 12:16:21 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Ted,
I think you point something interesting.
What really happens, according to me (but I do not have a huge technical qualification so it is more of observing and speaking with the pros involved), is that it is not specially about real IQ performance.
Let's say you are in Paris and you are a good fashion photographer. Why would you shoot MFD?  Why not FF Nikon for example? Because there is a pressure, because there is a "standard" that defines some "minimums".
Remember that just recently 35mm FF has made some progress, but the pros had invested years ago in MFD, so that is the common standard. Also, there is a evidence that if you are contracted by Chanel for a campaign that you are supposed to shoot with the best tools availables. That is just the way it is. Maybe you could acheive icual or closed result with your 35mm FF, but Chanel (for example) is wanting you to work with Hasselblad.
Same happens in architecture and steel objects: you shoot with LF and digital back, because of perspective corrections etc...
It is all about the best tools possible.

My works in Paris are not reaching that point because it is a small agency where campaigns are much more modest, but having relations with bigger ones, it is just the way it works.
The top-class photographers in advertising, arquitecture, fashion etc... are all working with MDF or LF in team, and I'm not sure is going to change soon.
Is it for IQ reasons or elite mentality? I think a little bit of both.

Cheers,

Fred.

Last I shot anything in Paris it was all 6x7 film.  That was 2005-2007.  Fashion editorials.  I noticed for commercial work I saw H3 systems, as well as . . . 6x7 film.  
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