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Author Topic: Movements: Back vs lens and out of my depth  (Read 2747 times)

cunim

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Movements: Back vs lens and out of my depth
« on: December 23, 2009, 08:21:04 am »

I am new to using movements and am trying to avoid a lot of "learning by doing".  Something tells me I am doomed to do exactly that, but any guidance on the following would be appreciated.  One initial statement - this job requires a MF system.

1.  With vertical and horizontal stitching using back motion I am getting the first natural-looking geometry in my images (told you I was a newbie).  What happens to image geometry if you move the lens instead of the back?  
  Concrete example - I am working from the back of an aircraft.  It is a long tube ahead of me (so tilt helps DOF) with wings and tail that angle out about 60 degrees to each side.  I can't just step way back because composition dictates angles which exceed the capture of my 90mm lens (on 40 x 54).  For various reasons, ultra-wides are out.  So I would like to shift the 90 with a bit of tilt and I think I have enough image circle to do what I need.  My Alpa Max will not move the back when the lens is tilted.  It will, however, allow me to shift the tilted lens and that is why I am asking.

2.  Lens cast correction - I have read the previous posts and note David's clear explanation of how to do this in Phocus.  Does anyone have a detailed, step-by-step for doing the same thing in CS4?  

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LiamStrain

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Movements: Back vs lens and out of my depth
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 11:34:57 am »

My general (very general) guideline is that you use the back position, swings and tilts to dictate perspective and geometry (in relation to the subject). And the front movements to dictate lens axis focal plane, dof, and viewpoint changes.

Obviously there are exceptions - but that's how I think of it, when setting up a shot, then I can adjust.

I also seem to recall that front movements generally require a larger image circle. I cannot confirm this, so anyone is welcome to correct.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 12:53:36 pm by LiamStrain »
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brianc1959

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Movements: Back vs lens and out of my depth
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 12:04:00 pm »

Quote from: cunim
Concrete example - I am working from the back of an aircraft.  It is a long tube ahead of me (so tilt helps DOF) with wings and tail that angle out about 60 degrees to each side.

If you're shooting something with 120 degrees horizontal field of view, then you probably should be doing stitching by rotating about the entrance pupil of the lens.  Or else shooting with a fisheye lens and re-mapping as required.
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Jack Flesher

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Movements: Back vs lens and out of my depth
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 12:05:15 pm »

Back movements do not alter perspective (perspective = referred spatial relationships of observed objects.), only alter the 3D > 2D rendering of shapes and frame position within the IC cast by the lens.  The Front standard shift, rise or fall movements will alter perspective, and the tilt and swing movements may alter perspective or not depending on camera design, however they generally do not render a change in the 3D>2D projection shape as the rear standard does, though again this can be slightly effected based on camera design.   So, the simple rule is you use the rear standard tilts and swings to correct visual geometry; the rear standard shifts, rise and fall to correct framing without altering perspective; front tilts or swings to alter the PoF (Plane of Focus) without affecting projection geometry; and the front shift, rise and fall movements to make fine adjustments to perspective.

Since we want elements seen in *flat* stitching frame captures to line up, we need them to all have the exact same perspective, which in turn means renders them free of any "parallax." (Parallax = apparent displacement of an observed object due to a change in the position of the observer.)  Hence, for flat stitching with a tech camera, it is always best to use rear shift, rise or fall movements.

Spherical sticthing is another discussion.  As indicated above you need to pivot the entire camera and lens assembly around the anti-parallax point (technically the entrance pupil of the lens) to maintain frame perspectives that line up.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 12:30:00 pm by Jack Flesher »
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Abdulrahman Aljabri

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Movements: Back vs lens and out of my depth
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2009, 01:38:06 pm »

Quote from: Yelhsa
It's best to move the back around a fixed lens circle, when stitching images together - because if you move the lens, the image's vantage points & perspective will change, so everything won't line-up as well.
 
Cheers,
Ashley.

That is what I end up learning the hard way today. I tried to stitch using lens shifted images, bad idea that I was able to salvage. That being said, I still can't use back movement after what I learned because I am using TS-E lenses and there is no tripod ring available for those lenses.
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Jack Flesher

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Movements: Back vs lens and out of my depth
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 01:59:29 pm »

Quote from:  Abdulrahman Aljabri
That is what I end up learning the hard way today. I tried to stitch using lens shifted images, bad idea that I was able to salvage. That being said, I still can't use back movement after what I learned because I am using TS-E lenses and there is no tripod ring available for those lenses.

You need to counter-move the body (in the opposite direction) by the same amount as you move the lens, but can only do this parallel with the tilt axis or the PoF will not line up.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 02:00:00 pm by Jack Flesher »
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Dick Roadnight

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Movements: Back vs lens and out of my depth
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 03:37:20 pm »

Quote from: Yelhsa
The Flexbody...

.. is still my main work-horse today, for this very reason.

Cheers,
Ashley
I have a Flexbody, which works very well with the Macro-planar 120, but offers little of no shift with wide lenses on 66... but with the > 6* 6 sensors, I suppose you have more spare image circle.

I have 40, 80, 120, 240mm lenses - what do you use?
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