Arca Cube and Alpa Max

[JoeFletcher]

Seasons Greetings All.
For those of you that have this combo, could you tell me what lens plate you recommend?

[cunim]

[attachment=18803:_MG_3521.jpg]

Seasons Greetings All.
For those of you that have this combo, could you tell me what lens plate you recommend?

PL 55 Markins (standard Arca) with a 3/8" bolt into the Alpa attachment adapter.  Little lip on the end of the PL 55 fits right against the rear of the Alpa adapter.  The adapter has two bolts holding it to the frame of the TC.  All seems very rigid to me, and lets the T/S adjuster hang down on the back of the frame where it is out of the way.

[JoeFletcher]

Brilliant!
Thank you cunim, and thanks for the picture!

[narikin]

yes, useful image.

interested why the tilt adapter-spacer is in the back rather than front. do you actually use it for rear tilt, or is it just because the 90 Rodenstock only comes on short barrels, and you have to use something?

[cunim]

yes, useful image.

interested why the tilt adapter-spacer is in the back rather than front. do you actually use it for rear tilt, or is it just because the 90 Rodenstock only comes on short barrels, and you have to use something?

The TS adapter has to be there because it spaces the short barrel lens.  It will not fit on the front becuase the barrel conflicts with the handgrip.  You could remove the grip but then holding the thing would be tricky.  From what I can tell, makes no difference whether you tilt the lens or tilt the back - unlike shift.

Down side is that when I put on the 40 standard barrel,  I have to remove two discrete blocks instead of just leaving the 90 on the TS adaptor and removing them as a unit.  I would prefer that.  I wonder if Alpa has a spacer for the the handgrip.  Probably.

[attachment=18805:_MG_3524_resize.jpg]

[attachment=18806:_MG_3525_resize.jpg]

[JeffKohn]

From what I can tell, makes no difference whether you tilt the lens or tilt the back - unlike shift.

I'm not sure I follow, I thought tilting the back would significantly change perspective, emphasizing the foreground while tilting the lens would have very little effect on perspective. That was my understanding of how it works with view cameras, anyway. Shift on the other hand, I don't think it would matter except that you can get parallax by shifting the lens when stitching.

[cunim]

I'm not sure I follow, I thought tilting the back would significantly change perspective, emphasizing the foreground while tilting the lens would have very little effect on perspective. That was my understanding of how it works with view cameras, anyway. Shift on the other hand, I don't think it would matter except that you can get parallax by shifting the lens when stitching.

What you say makes sense re the tilt geometry.  In that case, I definitely need to move the handgrip out from the frame.  They have a new grip almost done and perhaps that is spaced to allow the TS adapter to fit in front.

Alpa does say you can put the 34mm spacer on front or back, but that is completely different of course.

I have not actually been able to use the TC because I am waiting for a firewire battery (Tekkeon) and portable PC.  The Hasselblad back needs a firewire power source.  Getting tired of shooting the book shelves next to my workstation but that is the only firewire port I have at the moment.  I have learned that the 90HR W/ 50 MP back do a wonderful job on book spines and record albums, better than the Hasselblad HCD35-90.  Both great lenses, but to my eye the HR is noticeably sharper on stacks of books.  Yes, I fully appreciate how silly that sounds.

The TC is fine.  Sweet, simple, and I am sure we will have a great time together.  Phocus, on the other hand, is testing me.  Driving a slave 50 MP back with Phocus 1.2.1 under W7 is nonintuitive.  Really want V2.  In the meantime, if anyone has a decent worflow for focusing (no live view), capturing using the lens shutter sync (I think you have to kill Phocus to do this), checking the image (run Phocus again), avoiding Phocus crashes ... I must be doing something wrong.

[michele]

What you say makes sense re the tilt geometry.  In that case, I definitely need to move the handgrip out from the frame.  They have a new grip almost done and perhaps that is spaced to allow the TS adapter to fit in front.

Alpa does say you can put the 34mm spacer on front or back, but that is completely different of course.

I have not actually been able to use the TC because I am waiting for a firewire battery (Tekkeon) and portable PC.  The Hasselblad back needs a firewire power source.  Getting tired of shooting the book shelves next to my workstation but that is the only firewire port I have at the moment.  I have learned that the 90HR W/ 50 MP back do a wonderful job on book spines and record albums, better than the Hasselblad HCD35-90.  Both great lenses, but to my eye the HR is noticeably sharper on stacks of books.  Yes, I fully appreciate how silly that sounds.

The TC is fine.  Sweet, simple, and I am sure we will have a great time together.  Phocus, on the other hand, is testing me.  Driving a slave 50 MP back with Phocus 1.2.1 under W7 is nonintuitive.  Really want V2.  In the meantime, if anyone has a decent worflow for focusing (no live view), capturing using the lens shutter sync (I think you have to kill Phocus to do this), checking the image (run Phocus again), avoiding Phocus crashes ... I must be doing something wrong.

Wich grafic card do you have? I was told in this forum that phocus needs at least 512mb of grafic card to run well...

[vandevanterSH]

Wich grafic card do you have? I was told in this forum that phocus needs at least 512mb of grafic card to run well...

From the Phocus 2.0 "Read Me":

"For a desktop machine we suggest a Mac Pro with the Radeon HD 4870 graphics card. Even the bottom level 2.66 GHz Quad-Core model will give good performance - increasing CPU speed and number of cores will primarily benefit file export performance and viewer speed at 100% zoom."
(snip)
If you are currently using a Mac Pro with the original standard configuration Geforce 7300GT card, then the upgrade to a Radeon HD 2600 XT card is highly recommended as an economical way for noticeable improvements. If you're using a 30" display or dual monitor setup we recommend getting either the Radeon HD 3870 or Radeon HD 4870."

From personal experience, when Phocus 1.x was released, it was essentially unusable on my quad core with a 7300 card..

Steve

[wolfnowl]

I don't have an Alpa (yet), but when I saw the video from Optech about the T/S adapter, I wondered how well it would fit.  In the video they have the adjustment knob at the top, but it looks like it blocks the viewfinder, and at the side (as has been said), it gets in the way of the handgrip.  It may be said that one won't use a T/S adapter without a tripod and so a handgrip isn't necessary, but with all of the engineering Alpa's done with their cameras I wondered about that.  Mounted with the adjustment ring at the bottom, it lookes like it (almost) interferes with the baseplate.  The OP asked about the Alpa Max, and there is a  stitching adapter for the Max, here.  Might be useful.  The other option would be to get a 34mm multi-use adapter for the short barrel lenses when the T/S adapter isn't being used.

Mike.

[Derek J]

Hi all,
Here are a couple of quick pics of the T/S Adapter (6 degree) on a Max/ with Grips and Stitch Adapter.  As you can see, the Back Adapter is mounted to the front sled, so the camera is basically being used "backwards"      The SWA could be used in the same configuration.  

Cheers!

[narikin]

Hi all,
Here are a couple of quick pics of the T/S Adapter (6 degree) on a Max/ with Grips and Stitch Adapter.  As you can see, the Back Adapter is mounted to the front sled, so the camera is basically being used "backwards"      The SWA could be used in the same configuration.

thanks for this - I have one and reverse use is of interest sometimes, but often wonder why Alpa doesn't improve the ability to use the camera that way: the Max need a thread for the stitch adapter to be put on the rear mount, so you can stitch with the lens locked in "backwards" configurations (and or "sideways" - why not?)
that way you can use the larger movements on 'front' shift (25+18) rather than 'back' (18+18) for bigger stitches.

they also need to make the SWA capable of lens locked stitching. put a thread on that too, this isn't difficult!

[cunim]

thanks for this - I have one and reverse use is of interest sometimes, but often wonder why Alpa doesn't improve the ability to use the camera that way: the Max need a thread for the stitch adapter to be put on the rear mount, so you can stitch with the lens locked in "backwards" configurations (and or "sideways" - why not?)
that way you can use the larger movements on 'front' shift (25+18) rather than 'back' (18+18) for bigger stitches.

they also need to make the SWA capable of lens locked stitching. put a thread on that too, this isn't difficult!

From what I can see, the Max has the same issue as the TC.  You cannot mount the T/S adapter to the front because it's barrel conflicts - with the metal of the front frame in this case.

Alpa has promised to get back to me about it.  They are following this thread so it will be interesting to hear their reaction.

[Derek J]

From what I can see, the Max has the same issue as the TC.  You cannot mount the T/S adapter to the front because it's barrel conflicts - with the metal of the front frame in this case.

Alpa has promised to get back to me about it.  They are following this thread so it will be interesting to hear their reaction.

Have you considered using the ALPA Universal Attachment (ALPA 400.090.012) with the TC?  The T/S Adapter functions great on the TC (when used with the Universal Adapter).

Cheers!

Ok cunim, it looks like you're already using this adapter on your rig.  I'm going to set up my TC to use T/S adapter tomorrow and post some pics.  I'll put the finger grip on there as well and see if I can get it all to work.

[narikin]

Hi all,
Here are a couple of quick pics of the T/S Adapter (6 degree) on a Max/ with Grips and Stitch Adapter.  As you can see, the Back Adapter is mounted to the front sled, so the camera is basically being used "backwards"      The SWA could be used in the same configuration.

the second picture in your post derek illustrates what I mean:
with the lens on 'backwards' the stitching adapter is now locking the back, and the lens is moving - not good.
for Lens Locked Stitching (LLS) we need an thread to accept the stitch adapter putting on the rear sled, just like on the front one.

(and for that matter put one at 90degress too, so you can work sideways)

 

[schaubild]

the second picture in your post derek illustrates what I mean:
with the lens on 'backwards' the stitching adapter is now locking the back, and the lens is moving - not good.
for Lens Locked Stitching (LLS) we need an thread to accept the stitch adapter putting on the rear sled, just like on the front one.

(and for that matter put one at 90degress too, so you can work sideways)

You claim to have a Max but haven't noticed that there is a tripod mount on the frame? Just take the stitching adapter off and the lens stays fixed. Couldn't be easier.

[cunim]

You claim to have a Max but haven't noticed that there is a tripod mount on the frame? Just take the stitching adapter off and the lens stays fixed. Couldn't be easier.

Am I missing something?  I have a max in hand, and from what I can see:

Lens on front sled:
With no stitching adapter, rise and fall are in the lens, shift is in the back.
With stitching adapter, all movements are in the back (how it is meant to be used).

Lens on rear sled:
With no stitching adapter, rise and fall are in the back, shift is in the lens.
With stitching adapter, all movements are in the lens

If you need to shift on the rear sled (to combine tilt with the shift), or if  you want to use the TS adapter as a spacer for short barrel lenses, you are out of luck.  Just a quirk of the Max and my impression is that Alpa is not about to change it.  I suspect it would take some major mods to beef up the rear sled for tripod mount attachment.

To all who clarified the role of lens and back movements, thank you.  I understand now.

[narikin]

You claim to have a Max but haven't noticed that there is a tripod mount on the frame?

'Schaubild' - no need to be rude - especially on the holidays.
 
If you use the Max in reverse position (lens on back) you will find that the tripod mount locks the body, what it does not lock is the rear sled

in other words:
the stitching adapter locks the 'front' sled, so movement in any of the four direction possible in a max does not move the lens at all: the body +back move, but the lens itself is locked to the tripod, hence: Lens Locked Stitching.
attaching the max via a body tripod mount locks the body not the sleds, so moving one of the two sleds means that the lens moves...  

put another way: you get 2-way stitching, but not 4 way stitching.

what we need is the ability to lock either sled with the stitching adapter - not just the 'front' sled.

[cunim]

'Schaubild' - no need to be rude - especially on the holidays.
 
If you use the Max in reverse position (lens on back) you will find that the tripod mount locks the body, what it does not lock is the rear sled

in other words:
the stitching adapter locks the 'front' sled, so movement in any of the four direction possible in a max does not move the lens at all: the body +back move, but the lens itself is locked to the tripod, hence: Lens Locked Stitching.
attaching the max via a body tripod mount locks the body not the sleds, so moving one of the two sleds means that the lens moves...  

put another way: you get 2-way stitching, but not 4 way stitching.

what we need is the ability to lock either sled with the stitching adapter - not just the 'front' sled.

Nariken, I take it you mean that mounting the Max on its side lets you shift on the rear sled, but still without the rise and fall you get mounting mounting the lens on the front, using the stitching adapter and moving the back in X an Y.  Somehow, I missed this capability for side mounting first time around but Derek Jensen at Optechs pointed it out to me.

The mount is suboptimal because there is a narrow bearing surface and a 1/4" bolt hole to work with.  However, I think it feels OK if one is careful.  No, we can't do multiple rows, but it lets me do my tilted shift for one row and that makes me happy.

[attachment=18886:max1.jpg]

[narikin]

I take it you mean that mounting the Max on its side lets you shift on the rear sled, but still without the rise and fall you get mounting mounting the lens on the front, using the stitching adapter and moving the back in X an Y.  Somehow, I missed this capability for side mounting first time around but Derek Jensen at Optechs pointed it out to me.

The mount is suboptimal because there is a narrow bearing surface and a 1/4" bolt hole to work with.  However, I think it feels OK if one is careful.  No, we can't do multiple rows, but it lets me do my tilted shift for one row and that makes me happy.

yes exactly, though it gets confusing when we talk about 'front' and 'back' and these are swapped about! your picture is helpful.

I think we are saying the same thing - that you can turn the camera on its side, use it 'backwards' (lens on rear sled, back on front sled) and the bigger front rise/fall movements (25+18mm) on the Max become bigger rear shift movements for the back. Sadly, used this way you have to lock the camera body to the tripod, which, as you agree, means that you can only do single row stitching. For multi-row stitching (which I prefer to call Lens Locked Stitching, LLS) we would need, when using the camera 'backwards', to be able to lock the lens sled itself to the tripod, like you can do when using the camera the 'right' way around with the front sled and stitching adapter.

I would guess that this 18mm+18mm rear shift on the max is an historical design oversight from when MF sensors were smaller - eg a Phase 39mp at 49x37mm - and so a 38mm shift was sufficient. Then along came bigger full frame sensors like P65+ at 54x40.4mm, and we would prefer bigger shifts, like 20+20mm or more. maybe they'll fix that in a Max2 ?!

But... having said that the Alpa's in general have an issue with their main body aperture, which becomes restrictive to bigger multi stitches - the sensor gets masked by the body aperture after a certain point. Legacy issues like that (its a design from 6x9 film days after all, well before digital stitching) need to be reconsidered by them. One way around this body masking restriction is to use a short barrel lens on front and the 34mm spacer-adapter, or t/s adapter, on the rear (with digital back), which move the restrictive body aperture up the light cone. does that make any sense?  


ps- whats the RRS plate you have there?