Major flaw with Epson Stylus Pro 9900 causes banding in BLACK only

[Farmer]

I'm just interested, because I've never heard anyone at Epson say what you're saying they've said, and I know them pretty well :-)  That's OK, though.

At 300gsm+ I'd typically adjust to Wide, but not to Widest and make sure suction was set medium, although it's usually only from the last 1/3 or 1/4 of the roll that the memory makes this an issue.  Definitely if you're doing a lot more of that type of media (and you are), then that could account for it, but I have on several occassions attempted to replicate this fault and I can't (across many machines).  I wish I could - it might be useful :-)

Glad you have a solution, but it would be better if you had one that didn't cause head striking.

[deanwork]

Let me get this straight, you have the option of persistent nasty dither in the black channel or potential head strikes that will destroy your heads in the mid term?

This is just my opinion, and I'm probably wrong, as I often am, but I'm sure it has occurred to many of you that this dilemma is quite possibly an outgrowth of Epson's marketing group to control the type of media that is being used in their machines. We used to laugh that Epson's "Ultra Giclee" strategy would look for a way to put chips in all their media and require it for operation. Maybe they are getting close to doing that?

They have two successful papers, Premium Luster and Exhibition Fine Art (Innova UltraSmooth) but I would imagine that about 2/3 of the fine art papers, gloss fiber media, and canvas being used in their LF printers is not Epson made. Canson, Hahnemuhle, Ilford, Breathing Color and Harmon are producing superior products in most categories, obviously. That's no secret. To me it smells like their attempt to control "media settings" to such a fine tuned degree has mucked up a really amazing printer otherwise. Course if you are using Premium Luster you're cool (unless those pressurized carts flake out but that seems easier to solve?).

I hope Canon has the sense to know they can't do that, as HP finally came to terms with and offered third party media support. In this world they can't own everything. Maybe there is a solution down the road in a firmware update. If they were smart they would do that yesterday.

john

[Farmer]

With all due respect, John, what a load of rubbish :-)

Although, some people have been having success printing onto metal, so perhaps you can customise a tin-foil hat? ;p

Honestly, considering the number of these printers in use, the quantum of people who appear to have an issue is extremely small.  That doesn't mean that they're not having an issue, but it's hardly a mass production issue and you've already seen that in many cases Epson has replaced parts or machine for users to try to resolve it.

So let me provide you with the third option: No banding/dither and using a wide variety of third party media without issue.  That's how the vast majority of users run.

[deanwork]

Yea, it's probably just a few bad apples ruining the pleasure for everyone. Damn whiners.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Reading the thread backwards I see among the complainers users with a thorough experience in printing. Pity that they are the unlucky ones or Is the silent majority as uncritical as it usually is :-)

On the use of third party papers; here in Europe Epson makes exactly that distinction to lift this issue to a service case state, it is only done when you use Epson media. Not that the issue is solved by that policy, at the end the answer can still be that it is part of the design. I don't think it is something designed on purpose, I am more inclined to the idea that the technology is stretched too thin here. The droplet addressing can't cope with the normal plate gap or too little dotgain to cover up that kind of subtle weaving flaws. One of the two is solved by setting the plate gap smaller than suitable for the paper. It wouldn't surprise me if a slight difference in head quality can make or break the image quality per printer. There used to be a time that a small voltage change to the nozzles was enough to deal with that, remember the head code numbers for the 9000's. With the minimum droplet sizes of 3.5 picoliter, changed dithering/weaving methods and the high droplet frequencies needed today, a solution like that is probably too rough. Why does it happen with the latest models?  In my opinion because there are Canons out there with 12 ink channels firing from >2000 nozzles per ink channel.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[jwoolf]

I noticed something like what you are describing my first 9900.  I found that checking off the Super MicroWeave box in the print driver window fixed the problem for both PK and MK.  I always print with Super MicroWeave on.  (See attachment for snapshot of this setting.)

[deanwork]

When two people I know had this issue over and over on the 9900, Epson kept coming by and throwing all kinds of things at the problem, then ended up saying in frustration, "well it's not THAT bad is it? Can't you just use it the way it is?

[bossanova808]

I'm just interested, because I've never heard anyone at Epson say what you're saying they've said, and I know them pretty well :-)  That's OK, though.

At 300gsm+ I'd typically adjust to Wide, but not to Widest and make sure suction was set medium, although it's usually only from the last 1/3 or 1/4 of the roll that the memory makes this an issue.  Definitely if you're doing a lot more of that type of media (and you are), then that could account for it, but I have on several occassions attempted to replicate this fault and I can't (across many machines).  I wish I could - it might be useful :-)

Glad you have a solution, but it would be better if you had one that didn't cause head striking.

Well, I think that comes down to the head in the sand approach - it took ages before I could get them to admit they had heard of the problem and they knew others with it.  I doubt very much they are talking about it with people when they don't absolutely have to - and a lot of this chat was with their service agents (who are here in a couple weeks time for more of a chat) - They have replaced everything basically, bar the machine - new pumps, caps, printer head etc.  No change.

[Farmer]

All of that is happening under warranty?  I presume you're not located somewhere that's particularly dry or wet or anything like that?

[bossanova808]

Depends on what you think of Melbourne's climate   But no, it's pretty steady in our office.

It WAS under warranty at the time.  We have now let it lapse since they can't seem to fix it anyway, and we work around it as best we can.  It's really only pure blacks that cause/show the issue, so it's not all that common in the big scheme of things and for the most part the printer runs beautifully other than this.  That said, given we established the issue under warranty, I am sure we could push them a bit to keep trying to sort it but short of replacing the whole machine I don't think there is much left to try - I think it's endemic in the design under certain conditions and I hope basically that with the next gen. the problem will have been designed out.  And that can't be much more than a year away...

BTW we have both a 7900 and an 900 here and BOTH machines have the same problem.  So it's definitely NOT that isolated ... we're two for two here.

[langier]

I now remember I had a similar issue with a second-hand 7600 I bought a few years back.

On high speed, despite fresh carts, alignment, nozzle cleaning, the blacks were banded. I turned high-speed off and that solved the problem.

I'm not saying that that's the same problem with this 9900, but if it hasn't been tried, it may be worth a shot.

[bossanova808]

Believe me its been tried.  EVERYTHING has been tried.  weave, hgi speed, finest detail, different print qualities, paper feed dry times etc etc.

And base paper types.  That actaully has the biggest effect.  I am curious what base paper types people generally use with the various matte rages they use....

We generally use VFA or EAM as the paper type in the driver. 

[bellimages]

WHY are there so many posts on this thread?

[TylerB]

this issue has become clears as a bell for me in the last week due to this thread, after months of troubleshooting, the problem is really head strikes, not the K channel necessarily.
Many of us, after experiencing head strikes with our new 9900s, did what we always have... widen the platen gap settings right off the bat. Then after some experience with making prints we discover this pattern in blacks is revealed under certain conditions. I for one never went back to revisit the platen setting, it's never created a problem like this before with any Epson I've owned.
So it seems the screening patterns, dither, dot placements, whatever, that were introduced with these models require more precise placement than ever to avoid interference patterns, and a large part of that has to do with settings that effect mechanics. The settings all have to be as intended. When I am on medium platen , and the thickness setting is as it should be for the paper, everything works well with the ~300 fine art papers popular here.
If I get head strikes with a given paper, then I have to find workarounds in order to change to "inappropriate" platen gap settings. One that looks promising is changing the thickness setting, I've reduced the artifact even with a wide platen setting playing with thickness, but haven't nailed any of this down. Paper feed setting testing will have to be next. I'm wondering if doing alignments with a paper setting other than the paper actually used may come up with something more forgiving, not sure. I wish someone other than us busy users would be doing this kind of testing for solutions.
It's a problem with this model, not a malfunction that can be repaired in my opinion. It baffled me for as long as it did because my previous x600s and x800s never did this.
Because of the papers I use, if I can find a cheat that lets me just stay on wide platen gap to avoid strikes, I'd could live with that.
Other than this and the weak cutter, I'm extremely happy with the printer now.

Tyler

[TylerB]

...And base paper types.  That actaully has the biggest effect....

yes because that changes thickness and platen settings for you automatically. You can override them, but as you've reported yourself those are the critical factors, so it makes sense media settings will have an impact.

...I am curious what base paper types people generally use with the various matte rages they use....

We generally use VFA or EAM as the paper type in the driver. 

I wish I could help with that, but the RIP I use let's the user define that, with of course attendant thickness, gap, and offset settings... I can select Epson defaults too, like in the OEM driver, but I abandoned them right off as I had to have access to custom platen gap settings to avoid head strikes.
Tyler

[Ernst Dinkla]

I think it's endemic in the design under certain conditions and I hope basically that with the next gen. the problem will have been designed out.  And that can't be much more than a year away...

There are already new models, the 9890/7890. With another ink set but many similarities. There is the 4900.  If there are no problems with them Epson must have found what is wrong and could use that information for servicing the x900 (+11880) range.  If they show the problems too then it is a question of time and this thread becomes even longer.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[Sven W]

I wish I could help with that, but the RIP I use let's the user define that, with of course attendant thickness, gap, and offset settings... I can select Epson defaults too, like in the OEM driver, but I abandoned them right off as I had to have access to custom platen gap settings to avoid head strikes.
Tyler

I don't know if it's some help or support,
but printing from ImagePrint has never showed any "zebra pattern" at all. Never.
Head strikes; yes, but adjusting Platen Gap one step, and it's gone.

/Sven

[TylerB]

I'm happy you have had no problems Sven. Unfortunately it's not just a driver or RIP issue. I have a friend that gave up on IP with his 9900 for this exact reason... the difference with his from those reported here is that his moire was seen in extremely dark colors on PK papers, rather than the MK ~300 papers most in this thread are talking about.
I think it's entirely possible for some, even most perhaps, because of the nature of their images, their particular paper and settings, to never see the problem.
Tyler

[John Trevino]

Just wanted to let the OP know that I had a similar experience with some unexplained banding, though not nearly as frustrating or time consuming as this, though much time was consumed looking for solutions which is how I happened upon this post.

I have since had my problem solved and made a new topic about it in the forums under the title "Something Every Epson 9900 Owner Needs To Know About Banding", though wanted to link to it through this post since this is where I first went looking for answers as well.  For me, the solution was the result of an onsite service call with Epson's techs and took all of about an hour to fix.  I don't know if it would fix the OP's banding issues, but is something that everyone who owns a 9900 should be aware of and add to their troubleshooting techniques.

The link is here:http://http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=58449.0

[dgberg]

Tyler,
What is the issue that makes your cutter weak?
On my 2 Epsons the cutter has worked perfectly every single time.